Who Will Beat Kenyon and When?

Forums General National Championships Who Will Beat Kenyon and When?

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    • #12886

      My guess is Emory within the next 3 years.

      For discussion, here is how the schools rank in endowment.

      Emory – 5 billion
      Johns Hopkins – 2.8 billion
      Williams – 1.9 billion
      Denison – 614 million
      Kenyon – 164 million
      Gustavus Adolphus – 76 million

      Others
      Carleton College – 650 million
      St. Olaf – 225 million
      Kalamazoo – 144 million
      Hope – 126 million

    • #41917
      swim5599
      Member

      I don’t know I am going to go out and say maybe 2 years after Steen retires. I am done thinking they will ever lose with him there

    • #41918
      Colbybr
      Member

      I voted for Emory. I think that they have the consistent depth and numbers to compete with Kenyon. I also don’t see high academic standards as a disadvantage to them, since we are talking about division three swimming. I think having a rich and extremely well regarded university can be a big selling point for the school in recruiting.

    • #41919
      Low Tide
      Member

      Yup, I’m thinking it will be Emory – Nice climate, beautiful girls, great facility, great school, great coach, free Coca Cola – They seem to have all the advantages and I’m suprised it has taken this long for them to get this good.

    • #41920
      99 Red
      Member

      I voted for Denison, because I think they will get a new pool before Steen retires, and that will help. They do so much head to head recruiting with Kenyon, and so if they start winning more of those battles, it helps them and hurts Kenyon more than any other team on the list. Besides, they have already broken the Kenyon Streak twice (Women’s nationals, Men’s conference).

      I don’t think Williams (or any NESCAC school) will ever be able to win at nationals because of how they structure their season. Williams has probably the best athletic program overall in DIII (which goes to the idea that high academic standards are a net positive in this division), but starting so late, and having their conference meet when they do, I don’t see them being able to win.

      Hopkins and Emory certainly could pull it off, and of the two, clearly Emory has the best chance today.

    • #41921

      I have to write in for St. Mary’s in Winona MN. They have heated pool decks, when world gets out about that, they will be fighting swimmers off with a stick.

    • #41922
      The Treat
      Member

      @Low Tide wrote:

      Yup, I’m thinking it will be Emory – Nice climate, beautiful girls, great facility, great school, great coach, free Coca Cola – They seem to have all the advantages and I’m suprised it has taken this long for them to get this good.

      free coca cola? why didn’t howell tell me that before i made my decision??? crap.

    • #41923

      Not so free on the Coca-Cola. It may have changed a bit, but I graduated 13 years ago and the free cokes I remember getting were the ones at the “Senior Coke Toast” a few days before graduation. We all dressed up and went to the basketball gym to sit at tables with professors who happened to be there (I sat with my “World War II in the Pacific” history professor). There were those cute 6.5 ounce bottles chilled in the centerpiece of each table, and an old-fashioned “church-key” bottle opener. Then, the coke toast. Snap open the bottle of coke, and think about how even with several billion dollars of Coke money, I still had to pay a large tuition and all I got was this lousy 6.5 ounces of coke… 😛

      But, I will say all of us alumni have an intense loyalty to Coke products. I don’t drink sodas much anymore (except when I go back to Atlanta, so I can drink a “real” Coke made at the HQ). I think if you did a survey, most Emory alumni would rather suffer of thirst in the driest desert than drink any products from that “other company.” Just to be funny, however, the AEPhi fraternity had a Pepsi machine in their basement in ’91 or so, and were told by the campus higher-ups to cover up the Pepsi logo on the front of the machine. Seriously. But the loyalty is still there for Coke. I remember buying 2liter bottles of coke for $1.79 while the A&P on the corner of North Decatur and Claremont couldn’t GIVE away bottles of Pepsi. By the dust on the Pepsi bottles, it looked like those had been on the shelves since the mid-80’s.

    • #41924
      3 6 Mafia
      Member

      @99 Red wrote:

      I don’t think Williams (or any NESCAC school) will ever be able to win at nationals because of how they structure their season. Williams has probably the best athletic program overall in DIII (which goes to the idea that high academic standards are a net positive in this division), but starting so late, and having their conference meet when they do, I don’t see them being able to win.

      its hard getting up in november, when your college days totally outnumber your swimmer days. needless to say, the nescac schools are able to get more done in the short period of time and id say it is more impressive than what Emory or Dension do with there significantly longer season. Not to put down what they do, but they are tapering to make cuts while schools like amherst and williams are just getting started.

      Both Scott and Millen were 152 in the 2fly 3 weeks into their season.

    • #41925
      polarbear
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      My guess is Emory within the next 3 years.

      For discussion, here is how the schools rank in endowment.

      Emory – 5 billion
      Johns Hopkins – 2.8 billion
      Williams – 1.9 billion
      Denison – 614 million
      Kenyon – 164 million
      Gustavus Adolphus – 76 million

      Others
      Carleton College – 650 million
      St. Olaf – 225 million
      Kalamazoo – 144 million
      Hope – 126 million

      A little misleading since Hopkins and Emory both have major graduate programs, including large medical / public health schools which are very expensive to run and also control most of the endowment.

      Bowdoin – 850 million

    • #41926

      So endowments = national championships in D3 athletics? Explain to me how this is done [i]legally[/i]………………. personally, I think D3 swim teams should be on a level playing field, equal numbers of swimmers to contend for the trophy…………not likely now with endowments apparently financing the programs…………. 😡

    • #41927
      Nescacfan
      Member

      @3 6 Mafia wrote:

      @99 Red wrote:

      I don’t think Williams (or any NESCAC school) will ever be able to win at nationals because of how they structure their season. Williams has probably the best athletic program overall in DIII (which goes to the idea that high academic standards are a net positive in this division), but starting so late, and having their conference meet when they do, I don’t see them being able to win.

      its hard getting up in november, when your college days totally outnumber your swimmer days. needless to say, the nescac schools are able to get more done in the short period of time and id say it is more impressive than what Emory or Dension do with there significantly longer season. Not to put down what they do, but they are tapering to make cuts while schools like amherst and williams are just getting started.

      Both Scott and Millen were 152 in the 2fly 3 weeks into their season.

      The point to debate is: Would NESCAC swimmers swim faster in March at Nationals if their season started earlier?

      I’m not sure starting earlier and swimming fast at a mid-season invitational really hampers the performance of those who swim for NESCAC schools. After observing the performances of NESCAC tetams over the past few years, I think the coaches have figured out the way to get the most out of their swimmers for both NESCAC championships[where most qualifications for nationals occur] and then, several weeks later, for Nationals. NESCAC coaches just can’t attract enough “A” swimmers. When NESCAC teams do get several A’s on board at the same time, they can do what the Amherst women did last year and what the Williams women did for several years before –mix it up with Kenyon, Emory and Dennison. But, they are not likely to win.

      On both the men’s and women’s front, I don’t see any NESCAC team winning Nationals until the D-IV championships are launched.

    • #41928
      The Treat
      Member

      @BreakingTheSurface wrote:

      So endowments = national championships in D3 athletics? Explain to me how this is done [i]legally[/i]………………. personally, I think D3 swim teams should be on a level playing field, equal numbers of swimmers to contend for the trophy…………not likely now with endowments apparently financing the programs…………. 😡

      they already do level the number of swimmers. you’re only allowed to have somewhere around 18 swimmers at nationals (and there are rules about divers which i don’t know).

      it’s not like the endowment is there to give to swimmers, but endowment means building new pools, hiring good coaches. having endowment might not help you, but not having endowment can definitely hurt you.

    • #41929
      fr0gman
      Member
      Quote:
      So endowments = national championships in D3 athletics? Explain to me how this is done legally………………. personally, I think D3 swim teams should be on a level playing field, equal numbers of swimmers to contend for the trophy…………not likely now with endowments apparently financing the programs…………. Mad

      …and let me guess, you think that everybody at a race is a winner for just showing up. every place has strengths and weaknesses, the great programs just maximize their strengths and minimize their weaknesses. Why hold people back? Why restrict some teams from being great? Why try to bring good teams back the the mediocre mean? That type of statement is what’s wrong with the world. Face it, some people are bigger, better, stronger and willing to work harder. It’s not about fair. Nobody ever promised you fair.

    • #41930
      Monkey Boy
      Member

      Face it, some people are bigger, better, stronger and willing to work harder.

      Your mom been telling stories about me again?

    • #41931

      School support plays a huge role. The teams listed here all have good support from their schools. But I think the point is that a large endowment sometimes means better facilities, higher paid coaches, better weight rooms, hotter chicks, better winter training trips, and VIP access to champagne room… and I guess free classic cokes.

      What is Macalaster college’s (St. Paul Mn) endowment? I know they are building a new facility, and have one of the larger endowments in the country.

    • #41932
      silentp
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      School support plays a huge role. The teams listed here all have good support from their schools. But I think the point is that a large endowment sometimes means better facilities, higher paid coaches, better weight rooms, hotter chicks, better winter training trips, and VIP access to champagne room… and I guess free classic cokes.

      What is Macalaster college’s (St. Paul Mn) endowment? I know they are building a new facility, and have one of the larger endowments in the country.

      676 Million.

      Also, if we’re talking endowments, Grinnell should be mentioned as they have a 1.6 Billion dollar endowment and barely more than 1000 students. They rank only behind Harvard, Princeton, Yale and Bryn Athyn for endowment dollars per student.

    • #41933

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      School support plays a huge role. The teams listed here all have good support from their schools. But I think the point is that a large endowment sometimes means better facilities, higher paid coaches, better weight rooms, hotter chicks, better winter training trips, and VIP access to champagne room… and I guess free classic cokes.

      What is Macalaster college’s (St. Paul Mn) endowment? I know they are building a new facility, and have one of the larger endowments in the country.

      Endowment is a major key to determining a school’s quality and viability. Schools with low endowments have difficulty funding financial aid, programs and facilities.

      Macalester College just tore down a perfectly useable pool and athletic complex and is building a monstrous complex in its stead. If you’ve ever seen a Mac student attempt to catch a frisbee or kick a soccer ball, you’d understand that athletics is not a school priority. But they have tons of money, and decided to build a huge new facility anyway.

      MIAC Endowments
      Macalester College – 675 m
      Carleton College – 650m
      University of St. Thomas – 300 m
      St. Olaf College – 225 m
      Hamline University – 155 m
      St. John’s University – 125m
      Gustavus Adolphus – 76 m
      St. Mary’s University – 33 m

    • #41934

      An even bigger factor, which has a much better correlation to a school’s swimming program, is how athletics is considered when determining scholarships and financial aid. Before I get flamed, I do realize that d3 schools do not give out athletic scholarships. But schools do give out grants and awards based on a number of factors.

      In the MIAC, I can say with some degree of confidence that GAC and the UST consider a student’s athletic ability, in addition to his or her academic ability, when handing out grants. I can say with certainty that Carleton College and Macalester do not. GAC and UST routinely dominate MIAC sports, while Carleton and Macalester are perennial cellar dwellers.

      My question is, does Jim Steen have financial aid on speed dial? Is Kenyon awarding swimmers financial aid based on their athletic abilities? Is this a big factor in Kenyon’s success? They have won every title since 1980. They must be doing something to create this advantage. Could a swimmer who applied to both Kenyon and Denison comment?

    • #41935
      DonCheadle
      Member

      How is it that San Jacinto Community College in Houston Texas has a bigger endowment that Gustavus Adophus? Seriously, that is paltry.

    • #41936

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      How is it that San Jacinto Community College in Houston Texas has a bigger endowment that Gustavus Adophus? Seriously, that is paltry.

      Don’t you be dissin’ on SanJac! A lot of my friends went there! : )

      I did dual credit while in HS at Alvin CC though… I hope the Gusties have a bigger endowment then them. : )

    • #41937

      I can see that Mac is still taking every chance to take shots at Coach Steen. Seriously, STOP. What you’re implying is that he gets great athletes based on dangling money in front of them or tweaking the admissions standards.

      In D-III, all institutions have to report the number of students receiving grants/aid/scholarships to the NCAA. There is a special submission category for student-athletes. There cannot be a statistically significant higher percentage of aid or grants or scholarships to athletes based on athletics alone. I don’t know what the statistical margin is, but it cannot be by much. No college in D-III can risk awarding bogus grants to anyone because of this legislation. Furthermore, no member of the coaching staff can work in the Financial Aid office. That said, no coach can call the Financial Aid office and say “Johnny 4:28” needs this amount of money or he’s off to some other place. That violates the NCAA rules, and I’m sure ethics rules at most colleges.

    • #41938
      swimkin
      Member

      Please put this to rest!

      Steen doesn’t have any say in how much money the students get at Kenyon. And contrary to what else you may think, he also doesn’t have much sway in admissions either. Any exceptional athlete that attends on merit aid has to be really smart, too. Those that held those scholarships from what I saw for four years .. were just that- smart and deserving of the aid given them and they managed to maintain their averages in order to keep them.

      Because of the cost of tuition at Kenyon a good portion of the students may get some financial aid (some more than others depending on their FINANCIAL NEED). That includes some, but not all the foreigners. That being said, the majority of the students who graduated at the same time as my kid were paying full freight for tuition and they had not been specifically recruited by Kenyon unless they first showed some interest in the school. Many of them came out to visit and/or applied and got in on their own (my own child included). My kid (four time National swimmer) did not get any special help to get into Kenyon, but visited the school several times before freshman year there. The school was a first choice and we made sure that everyone knew it. My kid was a good student, but more importantly we weren’t asking for financial assistance. I believe that is why my kid got in. Not every swimmer who wants to get into Kenyon gets in. Some have ended up at rival schools and have still managed to make it to Nationals on other D-3 teams. (at least one that I know of did anyway)

      Many of Kenyon’s foreigners come on their own, from other alumni, alumni coaching staff at other college programs, or even current students refer them to the school. The Kenyon alumni grapevine is a very strong network. That and Kenyon’s success in the water and now the new facility are what draws many good swimmers to the school. Recruiting is much easier when you win multiple National championships.

    • #41939

      frogger is right, let people dominate if they can. but i guess that means we might all have to shut up about how kenyon tools on everyone ALL the time…

    • #41940

      Chip-

      Student athletes’ average financial aid must be within 5% of the average student body for the school to not get flagged. At many schools, including the one I’m at, the average student athlete aid is actually less than the general student body…meaning not only is there no fudging going on, but that the average student athlete is less financially needy than the average non athlete.

      No go on the free coke here too…I didn’t even do the toast thing you described…somehow I think I was somewhere else graduation week…

    • #41941
      99 Red
      Member

      Pioneer makes a good point, but remember, at schools like Denison and Kenyon, there aren’t very many people paying the sticker price, regardless of their position on athletic teams. I applied to both Kenyon and Denison, and I got scholarship packages from both schools. I’ve seen lots of people applying to both schools, and sometimes DU gives the better package, sometimes KC does.

      Here is a story that is close to my heart that fits a little into where this thread seems to be moving. Denison had a massive capital campaign in the early 90s, very successful, and they decided to try to improve their reputation nationally by increasing the amount of merit based financial aid given out to the incoming classes of 93-97, and then scaling back to a lower level. This isn’t a rare event, lots of schools do this sort of thing. This translated to the graduating classes of 97-01

      What did Denison’s general financial aid increase get them? Well, their national reputation has improved, but on top of that, Denison started a 10 year NCAC all sport trophy winning, produced 12 NCAA Post Grad scholars off the swim team, won NCAA’s on the women’s side and broke a 40+ year conference winning streak on the Men’s side. I can’t tell you how many All American’s Denison produced during that time, but I’d bet that it was more than any other school, Kenyon excepted.

      Denison surged up to a top 3 program, and then the over all financial aid fell back, and Denison also fell back. Right now, because of some very talented individuals, the DU men’s team is back in a top 3 position, but the team these days doesn’t have the same depth that DU could put together back then. Was the greater general scholarships the only thing driving the swimming teams rise? No, of course not. But it helps. And of course the football team hasn’t really benefited from the same increased scholarship fund because they don’t have the same social group and coaching staff that the swim team has. Success breeds success. But giving a full ride to every national merit finalist and valedictorian also helps the swim team, no doubt about it.

    • #41942
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @PioneerSwimming wrote:

      I can see that Mac is still taking every chance to take shots at Coach Steen. Seriously, STOP. What you’re implying is that he gets great athletes based on dangling money in front of them or tweaking the admissions standards.

      In D-III, all institutions have to report the number of students receiving grants/aid/scholarships to the NCAA. There is a special submission category for student-athletes. There cannot be a statistically significant higher percentage of aid or grants or scholarships to athletes based on athletics alone. I don’t know what the statistical margin is, but it cannot be by much. No college in D-III can risk awarding bogus grants to anyone because of this legislation. Furthermore, no member of the coaching staff can work in the Financial Aid office. That said, no coach can call the Financial Aid office and say “Johnny 4:28” needs this amount of money or he’s off to some other place. That violates the NCAA rules, and I’m sure ethics rules at most colleges.

      I’m going to be completely honest here. I know a guy (we’ll call him wonderboy34) that attended a certain D3 school. If it weren’t for his athletic ability, there would have been absolutely no way he would have gotten into the D3 school he attended, not to mention the financial aid and grant money he received. He didn’t graduate from high school (he was a handful during those days), and in fact flunked out of nearly every class from 7th grade on. He ended up getting a GED instead. How was he able to attend his college? Swimming. Would the admissions people have any idea that he was a swimmer had an alum not contacted the coach and got the ball rolling? No. The coach was absolutely involved. I think it’s naive to believe that this kind of thing doesn’t happen behind closed doors.

    • #41943
      wonderboy33
      Member

      In fact, when wonderboy34 made his first visit with an admissions counselor, he was told that there was no way that he would get into said school. The meeting lasted 5 minutes. On the drive back home, he called the coach and told him what transpired in the meeting with the admissions counselor. 5 minutes later, admissions called and told wonderboy34 to drive back to the school. Apparently, wonderboy34 met with the “wrong” admissions counselor and would meet with a different counselor when he got back to the school. Needless to say, it all worked out for wonderboy34.

    • #41944

      @PioneerSwimming wrote:

      I can see that Mac is still taking every chance to take shots at Coach Steen. Seriously, STOP. What you’re implying is that he gets great athletes based on dangling money in front of them or tweaking the admissions standards.

      I actually didn’t imply this at all. Read my post again, and try not to get so worked up. I merely asked, because, I don’t know. I was looking for insight from a swimmer who applied to both Kenyon and Denison, which I received, despite your pointless rant.

      Like many d3 swimmers, I’m interested to find out what’s behind Kenyon’s success. Is it a great coach? Is it financial aid? Is it the facility? Is it tradition? I don’t know. From what I’ve read on this board, it seems like Jim Steen is the driving factor behind Kenyon’s success. He is certainly the common denominator.

    • #41945
      Colbybr
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      @PioneerSwimming wrote:

      I can see that Mac is still taking every chance to take shots at Coach Steen. Seriously, STOP. What you’re implying is that he gets great athletes based on dangling money in front of them or tweaking the admissions standards.

      I actually didn’t imply this at all. Read my post again, and try not to get so worked up. I merely asked, because, I don’t know. I was looking for insight from a swimmer who applied to both Kenyon and Denison, which I received, despite your pointless rant.

      Like many d3 swimmers, I’m interested to find out what’s behind Kenyon’s success. Is it a great coach? Is it financial aid? Is it the facility? Is it tradition? I don’t know. From what I’ve read on this board, it seems like Jim Steen is the driving factor behind Kenyon’s success. He is certainly the common denominator.

      I think you’ll find that today it is due to a combination of all of those factors. Obviously the amazing facility wasnt there until 2006. Financial aid I’m sure can’t be better than at a place like Emory or Hopkins. The tradition seems to be a strong factor, but it has to have started somewhere, in this case with Steen. So maybe it all does go back to him, although as I always say, lets give those swimmers some credit since they did all the legwork!

    • #41946
      JHU84
      Member

      two points I heard the Ivy’s are going to give grants vs aid – how will this impact DIII schools?

      Secondly, looking at schools for my kid, if he doesn’t go to a top swimming school UT, AZ, Stanford, Nwstrn… I would rather he go to a place like JHU and final at nats than be top 30 at DI and have glory at conf. It is just a more fun time in college. The caliber and coaching at top DIII schools is excellent and the kids swim becasue they want to be there and win. It will be a very interesting couple of years as we start looking at this more closely.

    • #41947

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      In fact, when wonderboy34 made his first visit with an admissions counselor, he was told that there was no way that he would get into said school. The meeting lasted 5 minutes. On the drive back home, he called the coach and told him what transpired in the meeting with the admissions counselor. 5 minutes later, admissions called and told wonderboy34 to drive back to the school. Apparently, wonderboy34 met with the “wrong” admissions counselor and would meet with a different counselor when he got back to the school. Needless to say, it all worked out for wonderboy34.

      Excellent insight. I fail to understand how so many people get worked up over this. Being good at athletics is the same thing as being exceptional at music, theatre, or debate. Being exceptional at an extra-curricular activity is a huge factor. It is readily awarded by financial aid and grants, and should be.

      If I were a collegiate swim coach, I would absolutely have contacts in financial aid and admissions. Recruiting is a huge part of the job, and I’d be a bad coach if I did not. There is nothing wrong with greasing the wheels, or being the advocate for a recruit you believe in. It sounds like your coach believed in you, and went out of his way to get you into his school.

    • #41948

      @JHU84 wrote:

      two points I heard the Ivy’s are going to give grants vs aid – how will this impact DIII schools?

      Secondly, looking at schools for my kid, if he doesn’t go to a top swimming school UT, AZ, Stanford, Nwstrn… I would rather he go to a place like JHU and final at nats than be top 30 at DI and have glory at conf. It is just a more fun time in college. The caliber and coaching at top DIII schools is excellent and the kids swim becasue they want to be there and win. It will be a very interesting couple of years as we start looking at this more closely.

      Most d3 schools give tons of grants. Your kid should expect to receive both grants and loans. Harvard is d1 and NYU is d3. It doesn’t look like the Ivy League applies to swimming.

      I swam, without scholarship, at the University of Minnesota (top 8 at the time) for part of a year, then transfered to a d3 school. The d3 swimming experience was far superior. But I must admit that the only reason I was able to swim d3 was that my college gave me enough grants to compete with in-state tuition. If your kid is d1 scholarship quality, I’d say go for it. Especially if he is bright enough to weather the large classes at large institutions. If he’s a good, but not dominant student, he may benefit from a chemistry class with 12, as opposed to 1200 students. That’s really the important difference between a typical d3 school and a state institution.

    • #41949

      It sounds like our swimming careers are very similar. I transferred from Penn State (the MIAA people are sick of my story so I won’t elaborate) and I think d3 swimming was much better also.

      I have to disagree on the academics comparison. I thought those classes with 1200 people were so easy compared to the classes I took at Hope. A lot of that has to do with my major but classes at big institutions seemed easier to me because they never assigned huge projects or anything like that. Sure you get personal attention but I think you also get pushed harder. There is no comparison in the chemistry/math classes I took. Much much harder at a smaller school.

    • #41950
      Derek
      Member

      Captain, I’m not sure if I get your point exactly…

      Yeah, you can skate by in a huge class, but you have no chance of doing anything but working hard in a small class of less than 20. If you are the guy that is smart, but might need an extra boost, the attention from a professor instead of a grad student TA could be the difference that makes you, say, Secretary-General of the UN.

      (For anybody that doesn’t know, Kofi Annan went to Macalester.)

    • #41951
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      It sounds like your coach believed in you, and went out of his way to get you into his school.

      You mean he believed in wonderboy34. I can see how you would have gotten the 2 of us mixed up but I am much more brilliant. Whew, that was close.

    • #41952
      silentp
      Member

      Has anyone hear read Game of Life? It’s written by a Denison grad and makes the argument that athletics is bad for small, D3 institutions, moreso than large, D1 schools. It’s interesting and relates strongly to the tangent this topic has taken.

    • #41953
      Colbybr
      Member

      @JHU84 wrote:

      two points I heard the Ivy’s are going to give grants vs aid – how will this impact DIII schools?

      Secondly, looking at schools for my kid, if he doesn’t go to a top swimming school UT, AZ, Stanford, Nwstrn… I would rather he go to a place like JHU and final at nats than be top 30 at DI and have glory at conf. It is just a more fun time in college. The caliber and coaching at top DIII schools is excellent and the kids swim becasue they want to be there and win. It will be a very interesting couple of years as we start looking at this more closely.

      I believe at this time Ivy League schools are giving both grants and aid to students based on need. Schools in the Ivy League occupy a precarious position between division 3 and division 1. The book referenced “Game of Life” also embarrassed some Ivy Leagues, namely Princeton, causing them to reign in their admissions practices. Where as in previous years some schools could recruit without limit kids who are borderline div 1 swimmers, like a 1:44 200 freestyler or 1:58 IM, those schools can no longer continue this practice. This presents an opportunity for schools like Hopkins, Emory or the NESCACs that offer a comparable academics to the Ivy’s but for whom 1:44 freestylers or 1:58 IMers are good recruits.

    • #41954

      I know some MIAC schools have used the “learning disability” card when accepting students.

      And to go with the Wonderboy34 story, I know a handful of people (not in swimming) who gained acceptance to a school based primarily on being good at a sport.

      I also know that Gustavas has done away with any standardized testing requirements (no ACT or SAT needed). While as a Gustavus grad, this does not make me happy, I would assume this will help Gustavus in the future with recruiting borderline “college is not for me” type swimmers who can’t quite make D1. I’d assume this will help with other sports as well, but our football team still sucks… so who knows.

    • #41955
      Derek
      Member

      Getting rid of standardized testing requirements has little to do with accepting dumber students and everything to do with focusing acceptance on a certain type of student. I imagine that it will be “harder” to get in to GAC without standardized testing because people who used to be able to rely on a high ACT or SAT will have to prove that they have value besides being able to pass a multiple choice test – hence, a more involved application process. On the other hand, somebody who is mediocre at everything but can prove that they are “artistic” or a “leader” (or simply enthusiastic) will find it easier to get in because the bar isn’t set above their multiple choice test taking ability. I have enough respect for GAC to assume that they have the best interests of their college’s mission in mind when making this decision.

      Multiple choice tests are just one form of assessment and are widely considered a largely inaccurate and easily misleading method. Even those of you who took a lot of multiple choice tests due to being in sciences should be able to agree that passing a multiple choice test has little to do with success after college. (I do recognize that it can be good for “weeding out” people, but that argument fails when you consider that it is only better for weeding out people when the professor is lazy.)

      I recommend that you read what GAC has on their website about the policy. I just skimmed the text, so please forgive me if I have misrepresented anything here.

      http://admission.gustavus.edu/admissions/apply/testoptional.asp

    • #41956

      Derek,

      While I agree there is more to knowledge than multiple choice testing, where do you draw the line? This is supposed to be a higher education institution, not a glorified fat camp where everyone is taught how to feel good about themselves.

      Basic standards are set to make acceptance less subjective. Once it becomes subjective, it allows for a much bigger gray area on who the school can accept as students… whether that be artists, athletes, mimes, some straight edge poet, or whatever.

      I wonder if the NCAA requires athletes who participate at Gustavus to still take the ACT or SAT. Like when Kevin Garnett was coming out of high school, he failed the ACT requirements the first couple times. Could he have still gone to Gustavus?

      Note: This is coming from a Gustavus grad who had a below average ACT score… and don’t read good.

    • #41957

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      whether that be artists, athletes, mimes, some straight edge poet, or whatever.

      Chapel, please do not infringe upon my straight edge material until, at the very least, I am able to publish Keven’s Guide to Striaght Edge Dancing at the Gay 90’s. Don’t make me send you a cease and decist letter.

      On the GAC front, Gustavus is a pretty poor (economically) school, and got even more poor when a tornado ripped through campus. In 98, the school made a conscious decision to lower standards to increase enrollment. I believe the ACT/SAT call is merely an extension of this. This goes to show that endowment allows institutions to weather the storm without compromising their standards or mission.

      I’ve read the article Derek referenced a number of times, and even wrote the president expressing my dissatisfaction with it. The biggest issue with making ACT/SAT scores optional is that Gustavus can no longer be compared to other liberal arts schools. This year, it was dropped from the US News Best Colleges list, which is widely used by prospective students. The worst part about being dropped is that Gustavus had a favorable ranking prior to making ACT/SAT scores optional.

      Schools and students need to be compared on an apples to apples basis. The ACT/SAT is really the only way to compare students. It’s an essential rubric which should not be so readily disregarded. Gustavus will suffer from this decision, as will Gustavus alums who were accepted under higher academic standards. In fact, I think we’ve got a class action suit on our hands, Chapel.

    • #41958
      Tiger2
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      The biggest issue with making ACT/SAT scores optional is that Gustavus can no longer be compared to other liberal arts schools. This year, it was dropped from the US News Best Colleges list, which is widely used by prospective students. The worst part about being dropped is that Gustavus had a favorable ranking prior to making ACT/SAT scores optional.

      Gustavus is not alone among liberal arts colleges adopting the test-optional admission policy.
      Just a few examples of colleges with this policy, that are on the 2008 US News Best Colleges List are:
      Bates College (ranked 24th on the list)
      Franklin and Marshall (40th)
      Gettysburg (48th)
      Denison (52)

    • #41959

      Good point. It looks like the Gustavus president, James Peterson, bungled the submission.

      http://www.usnews.com/blogs/college-rankings-blog/2007/8/23/an-answer-for-gustavus-adolphus-college.html

      And it looks like he got canned for it.

      http://gustavus.edu/president/search/

      This, at least, is a positive step. I’d expect the next president to reverse this course. Predidents get canned for a rankings drop. Getting delisted is a huge blunder.

      @Tiger2 wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      The biggest issue with making ACT/SAT scores optional is that Gustavus can no longer be compared to other liberal arts schools. This year, it was dropped from the US News Best Colleges list, which is widely used by prospective students. The worst part about being dropped is that Gustavus had a favorable ranking prior to making ACT/SAT scores optional.

      Gustavus is not alone among liberal arts colleges adopting the test-optional admission policy.
      Just a few examples of colleges with this policy, that are on the 2008 US News Best Colleges List are:
      Bates College (ranked 24th on the list)
      Franklin and Marshall (40th)
      Gettysburg (48th)
      Denison (52)

    • #41960
      Derek
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Derek,

      While I agree there is more to knowledge than multiple choice testing, where do you draw the line? This is supposed to be a higher education institution, not a glorified fat camp where everyone is taught how to feel good about themselves.

      Basic standards are set to make acceptance less subjective. Once it becomes subjective, it allows for a much bigger gray area on who the school can accept as students… whether that be artists, athletes, mimes, some straight edge poet, or whatever.

      I wonder if the NCAA requires athletes who participate at Gustavus to still take the ACT or SAT. Like when Kevin Garnett was coming out of high school, he failed the ACT requirements the first couple times. Could he have still gone to Gustavus?

      Note: This is coming from a Gustavus grad who had a below average ACT score… and don’t read good.

      I hope that this isn’t a “slippery-slope” argument. You have more right to decide what GAC should stand for than I do (since I have no rights in that regard), but it seems that removing the requirement to take an arbitrary test doesn’t make the school a “fat camp.”

      Less subjective? What rubric? I’m fairly accustomed to using rubrics as well, and sophisticated (and therefore more helpful) rubrics are generally not associated with multiple choice tests.

      I really hope that the NCAA isn’t the reason we have standardized tests. Colleges should have to prove that a student deserves to be at their academic institution, but it seems to me that colleges should have many different ways to prove legitimacy. It also strikes me that a D3 school that doesn’t earn money from sports and doesn’t pay for sports has little reason to face that issue you bring up with KG.

    • #41961

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Most d3 schools give tons of grants. Your kid should expect to receive both grants and loans…..

      But I must admit that the only reason I was able to swim d3 was that my college gave me enough grants to compete with in-state tuition.

      In division 3 sports there are no scholarships.. how is it fair for coaches to have schools give “grants” to kids that they want to swim for them… isnt that almost the exact same thing as a scholarship? i dont see what the big deal is with schools like Kenyon bragging about how they have won x number of national championships when they are basically scholarship teams competing against non scholarship teams.. hate to break it to you folks but its cheating… there are kids swimming at some d3 schools that get more money from the school than kids swimming at d1 schools.. it defeats the point of division 3 which is supposed to be non-scholarship… who cares if youre the best team in the nation?? YOU SHOULD BE when you are paying your swimmers

      i know swimmers for a fact who have been interested in swimming at kenyon.. they were specifically told which grants to apply to and that those specific grants should cover enough of the tuition, and were told that if that is not enough to contact the coaches… what is the difference between that and a coach offering a kid a scholarship??

      nothing.. the only difference is that when a coach offers a kid a scholarship its not cheating because its not division 3

    • #41962
      Low Tide
      Member

      So it is cheating to have a contact (a coach) who knows the system and can help you find grants you might normally not find? My brother (who participates in no sports) received no money from the University of Michigan, until my father utilized a contact there who pointed him in the right direction to qualify for some grants and scholarships. What is the difference?

      Most d3 schools give weight to extra-curricular activities. A 3.8 student who balances his schedule with being captain of a sports team, is on the debate club and runs the yearbook is more valuable to a college than a 4.0 student with no extra-curriculars. Is that cheating, or should sports not count as an extra-curricilar activity?

      Schools get creative all the time to get in the students they believe will make a positive impact; whether it is a genius mathmetician or a gifted athlete. It is not cheating, it is the reality of living in a competitive world.

    • #41963
      Derek
      Member

      Also, what if the grants are need-based? Should d3 sports only be for the rich? The financial aid department is only as interested in you as your name and numbers. A coach can be your advocate and support.

      I find nothing questionable about pointing an athlete in the right direction to compete for the same grant that everybody else is eligible for.

    • #41964

      you guys are missing the point..

      any student at a school has rights to any grants.. obviously.. whether it be need based or for any other reason… what is not fair is when athletes have a better chance at getting those grants because the coach basically assures them that they will get it.. the coaches of these schools use the grants when they recruit kids much like the way scholarships are used. there is a huge difference between that, and applying for a grant the way any other student at the school does

    • #41965
      silentp
      Member

      @chunkybearcub137 wrote:

      you guys are missing the point..

      any student at a school has rights to any grants.. obviously.. whether it be need based or for any other reason… what is not fair is when athletes have a better chance at getting those grants because the coach basically assures them that they will get it.. the coaches of these schools use the grants when they recruit kids much like the way scholarships are used. there is a huge difference between that, and applying for a grant the way any other student at the school does

      A) Give us proof. Those are some heavy accusations.

      B) They are doing the job of a counselor, nothing wrong with that, unless, of course, they really are making sure swimmers get those scholarships.

    • #41966
      Low Tide
      Member

      It is an advantage to having an advocate at a school… no matter whether that advocate is a coach, a teacher, an alum or a member of admissions.

      My wife is hoping to get into the Michigan State veterinary program which is extremely competitive. Over the past couple years she has taken the time to cultivate a relationship with professors, administration and members of the admissions board. Will it give her an advantage over someone with the exact same status as her? Hopefully! Will it point us in the right direction for some grants and financial aid we might normally not have found on our own? Hopefully! Is that cheating?

      I just do not see that as being any different than a swimer having an advocate in a coach. I guarantee you every influential member of a college has the know-how to give an edge to a potential student they want to see at the college.

      As long as it is not an athletic scholarship, it is not cheating. At my college, it was called a “Leadership Scholarship” — And I am sure they keep those around as incentive for students they covet. I was captain of my high school swim team — Was that scholarship really inappropriate? Was it cheating?

    • #41967

      @Low Tide wrote:

      As long as it is not an athletic scholarship, it is not cheating. At my college, it was called a “Leadership Scholarship” — And I am sure they keep those around as incentive for students they covet. I was captain of my high school swim team — Was that scholarship really inappropriate? Was it cheating?

      Leadership scholarship? Really?

      It would be interesting how many non-athletes get this scholarship. Like if someone put “head of my guild alliance”, could they get one?

    • #41968
      Low Tide
      Member

      Leadership scholarship? Really?

      It would be interesting how many non-athletes get this scholarship. Like if someone put “head of my guild alliance”, could they get one?

      It would be. And if it *only* went to athletes, it would be illegal… though I highly doubt that is the case.

      But I would not be suprised if it was a grant or scholarship not known to the majority of applicants… IE. a grant faculty and admins could hold in their back pockets for students they wanted to give further incentive to. I would not be suprised if most institutions had numerous grants or scholarships like this.

      Or maybe I was just so awesome they made it up solely for me.

    • #41969

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      @Low Tide wrote:

      As long as it is not an athletic scholarship, it is not cheating. At my college, it was called a “Leadership Scholarship” — And I am sure they keep those around as incentive for students they covet. I was captain of my high school swim team — Was that scholarship really inappropriate? Was it cheating?

      Leadership scholarship? Really?

      It would be interesting how many non-athletes get this scholarship. Like if someone put “head of my guild alliance”, could they get one?

      Technically speaking, there is not a head of a guild alliance, per se. You can be the head of a single guild, or a guild master, but when your guild forms an alliance, it is temporary, and there is not necessarily a head of the alliance. Unless of course you have an epic mount. Then all bets are off.

    • #41970

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Technically speaking, there is not a head of a guild alliance, per se. You can be the head of a single guild, or a guild master, but when your guild forms an alliance, it is temporary, and there is not necessarily a head of the alliance. Unless of course you have an epic mount. Then all bets are off.

      Withdrawn.

    • #41971
      JHU84
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      @Low Tide wrote:

      As long as it is not an athletic scholarship, it is not cheating. At my college, it was called a “Leadership Scholarship” — And I am sure they keep those around as incentive for students they covet. I was captain of my high school swim team — Was that scholarship really inappropriate? Was it cheating?

      Leadership scholarship? Really?

      It would be interesting how many non-athletes get this scholarship. Like if someone put “head of my guild alliance”, could they get one?

      Technically speaking, there is not a head of a guild alliance, per se. You can be the head of a single guild, or a guild master, but when your guild forms an alliance, it is temporary, and there is not necessarily a head of the alliance. Unless of course you have an epic mount. Then all bets are off.

      So how many WOW players are there on here – need poll horde or alliance and levels

    • #41972
      Derek
      Member

      I’m pretty sure that the NCAA looks pretty closely at financial aid in order to ensure a level playing field. Assuming that certain grants are only won by athletes or athletes of a certain sport simply flies in the face of NCAA regulation and would be such a large loophole that there would be no such thing as DIII swimming.

    • #41973

      @JHU84 wrote:

      So how many WOW players are there on here – need poll horde or alliance and levels

      I have never played WoW. Though I have admiration for people who do. I just like dropping terms like +5 mana with firewalk. Makes me sound dangerous.

      Getting back to the topic, I know of at least one school that gives out leadership scholarships to swimmers. I believe that they give one to an incoming freshman, and one to the team captain. And again, there is nothing wrong with this.

    • #41974

      @Low Tide wrote:

      Leadership scholarship? Really?

      It would be interesting how many non-athletes get this scholarship. Like if someone put “head of my guild alliance”, could they get one?

      It would be. And if it *only* went to athletes, it would be illegal… though I highly doubt that is the case.

      But I would not be suprised if it was a grant or scholarship not known to the majority of applicants… IE. a grant faculty and admins could hold in their back pockets for students they wanted to give further incentive to. I would not be suprised if most institutions had numerous grants or scholarships like this.

      Or maybe I was just so awesome they made it up solely for me.

      What school did you swim for?

    • #41975
      Low Tide
      Member

      K College — planning on launching an investigation? 8)

    • #41976

      @Low Tide wrote:

      K College — planning on launching an investigation? 8)

      Nope, just wondering how many schools do this. : )

    • #41977
      NCACDork
      Member

      K like… K-zoo? Kenyon? K…

    • #41978
      Duck
      Member

      If Kenyon calls itself “K College”, it is clearly out of envy.

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