What about 2008 Nationals?

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    • #11939

      Does anyone in the know out there have knowledge of where the 2008 D3 Championships will be held? Perhaps I have this compulsion for long range planning, or perhaps I’m just curious. Seems to me that Emory should be in line hosting for another time.

      Or maybe a more appropriate question would be – Where would you like the meet to be held? What would be your top 3 choices?

    • #30187
      neswim
      Member

      1) Univ of Minn
      2) Indianiapolis Natatorium
      3) Univ of Maryland (College Park)

      Also what do you think about the proposal to hold a co-ed Div III Nationals?

      PROS: Since most programs have same coaches for men/women they all get similar attention
      CONS: Meet venues would be limited to DIV I and large public facilities only.

    • #30188
      N Dynamite
      Member

      Since the coed thing looks to be on tap for 2009, it could be at Emory in 2008. However, if it goes coed I have to agree with neswim – it will most likely stay at large D1 pools.

    • #30189
      miller
      Member

      If it stays at large D-1 pools, records will fall and the meet will be faster.
      It’s fun (for Emory?) to have the meet at Emory and for all fo the MIAA to have the meet in Holland, but there are lots of better pools out there and a combined meet might allow d-3 to visit them.

    • #30190
      DonCheadle
      Member

      If you have 2000-3000 people showing up for a swim meet you need a pretty big town to accomodate hotel needs. Holland would be overwhlemed by a combined meet. I don’t know if Miami of Ohio could handle it either.

    • #30191
      Vic
      Member

      @miller wrote:

      If it stays at large D-1 pools, records will fall and the meet will be faster.
      It’s fun (for Emory?) to have the meet at Emory and for all fo the MIAA to have the meet in Holland, but there are lots of better pools out there and a combined meet might allow d-3 to visit them.

      Yes, that will be a nice benefit if we go to a combined meet, and hopefully getting the best pools will be easier. Some national meets in recent years have been held at pretty good pools (Holland, St. Peters), but it would be nice if D3 could use bigger pools more often (Minnesota). Miami of Ohio almost certainly wouldn’t be able to host because of the lack of hotel rooms in the Oxford area.

    • #30192
      facenorth
      Member

      Cheadle wrote:

      Holland would be overwhlemed by a combined meet. I don’t know if Miami of Ohio could handle it either.

      You might be surprised how much hotel availability is actually in Holland. I realize how strange this sounds, but Tulip Time in early spring generates far more business for hotels than the national championships two years ago. I’m not sure if Hope would want to host again but if they did and they weren’t able to, it wouldn’t be because of lack of hotel rooms.

    • #30193
      silentp
      Member

      Although it might give D3 a better pool, it may take away from some of the excitement. Not to knock the women, and i am coming from a completely biased view, but the women’s races are often not as exciting, even to the fans, as the men’s. I don’t know what it is, and perhaps someone could explain it, but even when I went to the MIAC meet and was here to cheer for a female, the men’s races were just more exciting. Could this actually take away from some of the atmosphere? It would, however, give more rest to swimmers, which would obviously help them as the day goes on. At the same time, it means double the time at the pool, which takes it’s toll by day 3.

    • #30194

      As a former Emory Coach, I’d say that I’ve never had less fun at NCAAs than when we hosted…more work and more stress than I could have imagined. I also swam NCAAs at home and personally I really liked being someplace else for big meets.

      On the combined meet topic, I fear that a combined meet would lead to a reduction in the number of individuals invited…something I don’t think that any swimmers or coaches think is a good idea.

      The fear that a combined meet would take away from the environment for the women was also brought up at the CSCAA meetings. I think that its a valid concern.

      Additionally I think that we’d probably have to move to a four day championship format if we go to a combined meet – ala DII. I don’t really know what I think about that.

    • #30195
      mindgame
      Member

      Although it might give D3 a better pool, it may take away from some of the excitement. Not to knock the women, and i am coming from a completely biased view, but the women’s races are often not as exciting, even to the fans, as the men’s. I don’t know what it is, and perhaps someone could explain it, but even when I went to the MIAC meet and was here to cheer for a female, the men’s races were just more exciting. Could this actually take away from some of the atmosphere?

      I used to think that having a combined meet was a good idea, but after reading this perspective, I hope the meets remain separate. Not because it might “take away from some of the excitement”, but because I think female swimmers would prefer to have the fans there who are truly excited about their amazing athleticism, and not those who are merely waiting for “the main event”. I am not knocking anyone whose primary interest is men’s swimming. After all, my primary interest is women’s swimming.
      P.S. I have been to several MIAC meets, and actually found the women’s races to be more exciting than the men’s. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

    • #30196
      N Dynamite
      Member

      I’ve been thinking about it and it seems to me the excitement argument and the taking away from the women argument are flawed. Here’s my thought – with twice as many people on deck and more of your teammates and training partners there to support you it would create a more exciting atmosphere. Think about it – men and women train together all year, support each other at meets, and parents know the teammates. Cheering for each other would be greater. Some of those “lone wolves” wouldn’t be on their own anymore. And as for the fans “waiting for the main event” – are the women’s supporters suddenly going to turn their backs on their daughters, sisters, and girlfriends? They’ll still be there in full force – and those who are there for the men will also cheer for the women.

      Basically, it should make the meet more exciting for both sexes, and because only high end facilities will be able to support the size of the meet the swims should be faster because the facility is better. The only downside I see is that it will most likely have to move to a four day format. However, that could end up being a positive also – if it goes to four days there is room for the 1000, giving those distance guys the other event that they’re missing.

      The best argument against putting the meet together (in my mind) is the fact that most programs (last count all but 10 in Division III) have one coach for men and women. When the women are at Nationals, who is coaching the men? Doesn’t that potentially hurt the men in their preparation? Not that anyone would mess around when their coach wasn’t around πŸ™„ , especially with all that extra taper energy.

      I can understand the concern that the NCAA may reduce the number of participants, but I have heard that there is a movement to increasing the cap, even with the combined meet, so that the relay issue (12 or less invites) is brought up to as many as 16. That may fall through, so I wouldn’t bank on it, but if it’s true then I don’t see any reasonable reason to not combine the meets.

    • #30197
      miller
      Member

      I have to agree with Napolean here….especially on the topic of excitement.

      The loudest cheering for MIAA individual events is when Becky Weima swims. I’m sure at NCAAs, any close race is going to get the crowd excited, as is any swim that approaches record pace.

      To think that the women’s events are less exciting just exposes your own bias, not that of the crowd which is as likely to enjoy one gender’s swims as the other.

    • #30198
      facenorth
      Member

      I have one argument for the meet remaining separate that I am not surprised has been overlooked. When the girls are with the girls and there are no guys around….they will be girls. I’ve never seen a group so relaxed in a big meet setting. Jumping around, being goofy and doing the things that they need to do to stay loose. That just doesn’t happen when the guys are around.

      For the men, it’s easier to stay focused when the ladies are nowhere to be seen. They play mind games.

    • #30199
      The15mMark
      Member

      @facenorth wrote:

      I have one argument for the meet remaining separate that I am not surprised has been overlooked. When the girls are with the girls and there are no guys around….they will be girls. I’ve never seen a group so relaxed in a big meet setting. Jumping around, being goofy and doing the things that they need to do to stay loose. That just doesn’t happen when the guys are around.

      For the men, it’s easier to stay focused when the ladies are nowhere to be seen. They play mind games.

      Facenorth brings up a great point. Although the men’s and women’s teams get along very well during the season, I too believe that the seperate meet format allows each sex to do whatever it is they feel they need to do in order to compete at such a high level without fear of what the opposite sex is thinking. The seperate meet format just allows everyone to be themselves.

    • #30200

      A combined meet is the worst idea I have ever heard and would be a disaster for D3 swimming. It will only created a long, crowded meet that would decrease to performance of both men and women. The ONLY reason the NCAA is considering this is money. It is not in the best interest of the swimmer and I believe mens and womens teams need to have seperate autonomy to thrive. Men and women are different. They have different needs and different tapers and lumping them into one would would be aweful. I know the last thing I would have wanted at my NCAA meet is a womens team around because they just work differently. Thats my take.

    • #30201
      silentp
      Member

      The only arguement I have for the proposed format would be for swimmers, like myself, who don’t compete at night and wouldn’t mind a little eye candy around the deck πŸ˜‰ πŸ˜‰

      It would, however, crowd warm up lanes though because you can’t tell me that the majority of swimmers wouldn’t want to swim in the “main pool” duing warm ups to get a feel for the walls, floor and ceiling.

    • #30202

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      A combined meet is the worst idea I have ever heard and would be a disaster for D3 swimming. It will only created a long, crowded meet that would decrease to performance of both men and women. The ONLY reason the NCAA is considering this is money. It is not in the best interest of the swimmer and I believe mens and womens teams need to have seperate autonomy to thrive. Men and women are different. They have different needs and different tapers and lumping them into one would would be aweful. I know the last thing I would have wanted at my NCAA meet is a womens team around because they just work differently. Thats my take.

      A disaster, No! One of the most unique qualities of swimming over almost all other sports is that from an early age, swimmers have trained with the opposite sex and competed in meets together. Money is an issue, but because of that, there is a chance the cap level would increase if the meet are combined. Money saved would not necessarily be on travel of teams, but in the renting of the pool, banquet rooms, etc (from coaching I have seen how much this stuff can cost). As for warm up space? I don’t think it would be a problem. It would be true that the meet would have to be held at a large pool, Minnesota etc, to accommodate everyone. The Quality of the meet would not decrease either. In fact, for the increased atmosphere, I would personally gain from that. We had this argument when the MIAC went to a combined meet about how it would affect the men and women. I would say since they combined, it has been a great success and a lot more exciting. To say they have to be different to have success is not true. Ask all of the Conferences that have combined meets. It is also nice for smaller teams that only send 1-5 swimmers on either side; they have a cheering section and others to push them (considering most times it is to far and difficult for non qualifiers and families to travel to nationals). Ask any swimmer, male or female who went by themselves or with only one or two other people if having more swimmers there would have been helpful. I don’t care who it is, male of female, they are my teammates, and if I could have them there I would want them there, to be supported and go give support in return.

    • #30203
      Chris Knight
      Member

      I agree, I think the ambiance would only be improved. Maybe it’s b/c I just love to watch swimming, but I think that the more finals there are, the better! Plus the fact that the current format takes away most of the coaches for the most important stretch of practices of the entire year is a strong argument for the combined meet.

    • #30204
      Derek
      Member

      I’m a bit surprised by the sexist undertones of this conversation. Thank you to the posters who addressed the real issues and not ones of bias.

      I was surprised by this comment by facenorth:

      For the men, it’s easier to stay focused when the ladies are nowhere to be seen. They play mind games.

      Excuse me? Keep the women away from the men because the men can’t handle themselves when the women are around? And top of it, women (never men!) play mind games?

      As for your other point, which was not as incendiary but reflects equally damaging bias, that women are only able to relax and by themselves when men are not around, is bizarre. Maybe women DO act differently when men are not around, and maybe so do men. But is separate and different better than together with gradients of behaviors considered acceptable?

      If anything, what you write is a reflection of an overly patriarchial society. Maybe sports is a breeding ground for patriarchy given physical differences between most men and women, but I still believe that sexism is wrong.

      The15mMark also surprised me for identifying:

      fear of what the opposite sex is thinking

      as the reason for poor performance at a national level meet. So you are telling me that if there is a woman watching you swim, you are going to swim slower? The stress of contantly fulfilling your biologically programmed mechanisms to impress a woman by flexing in your speedo will make you unable to perform in the water? That women will spend more time worried about their hair and makeup than their caps and goggles? Further,

      The seperate meet format just allows everyone to be themselves.

      This comment flirts with lunacy. Think about it logically: larger groups of people are MORE heterogeneous, that is, they are MORE diverse. Smaller groups are LESS heterogeneous, that is, they are LESS diverse. Diversity, by its nature, promotes freedom of expression because there is less “standard.” In any given set of people, if you were to graph their traits, you would get a bell shaped curve where most people would end up in the middle and less people towards either side. If you were to make the curve larger, that is, add more people, you would create a broader spectrum of differences and therefore create an atmosphere where people would be MORE likely “to be themselves” because there would be less societal pressure to act in a certain way. If your argument in response has anything to do with creating a team atmosphere in a men’s team that would make it okay for the weird guy to be weird, then you must apply the same logic to a combined team unless you could identify actual physiological differences between men and women that supports your argument. If such scientific proof exists (and it was not commissioned by the Bush Administration), then I wish to see it and stand corrected.

      Of course, if we are all still in middle school and our teammates are still incapable of seeing beyond appearance, age, gender, religion, or school affiliation, then you might be right and I would have to reconsider my arguments based on developmental psychology and human biology. However, most people competing at nationals are 18-22 and far beyond puberty.

      I recognize the controversy I am stirring up, but in this instance, as the moderator of this website, I feel that it is appropriate.

    • #30205
      N Dynamite
      Member

      Well said, Derek.

    • #30206

      I’m gonna put a few hopeful “non-gender bias” things out there that make me dislike a combined meet with pretty much all my being.
      1.) Crowds the pool- no matter what pool you go to, there are 8 lanes of competition pool in the morning warmup that everyone will want to be in. This year at MN, with just guys, it was croweded. And thats the best pool possile, so multiply.
      2.) Crowds the coaches- I know this doesnt apply to small teams, but if you combine the meet then Steen, Parini, Kennedy, Howell and the like would have close to 30 swimmers to be looking after. The gives less personal attention to each swimmer and pretty much drives the coaches crazy at a big meet like that.
      3.) Men and Women taper differently. They just do. Guys have more muscle mass and need longer tapers most times. So saying combining the meet to get a program all on the same page lacks merit. I understand having a coach leave for 3 days during taper isnt completely ideal, but men and women are on different programs anyway so might as well separate their meets.
      4.) Session would last forever. The best part about an NCAA meet is a short session that doesnt wear you out and gives you plenty of time to eat, nap and get ready. If they combine, kiss the 11am start time goodbye and say hello to the pool at 7am for a 9am start and finish each night around 10. Its back to USS meets.
      5.) If you think a couple extra people in the stands is going to change the atmosphere of a NCAA championship at all, where were you for NCAAs this year. Do you really think the meet needs more atmosphere? If that excitement isnt enough for you and you think something will be different with more people, then well I dont understand. The national title is on the line and people are laying their careers down in front of them. Thats why the meet is special, not more parents. Plus with another 300 people, where are the parents gonna sit? And where are swimmers gonna sit on the deck. MN was crowded with only guys.

      6.) In no other sport do men and women even train together, let alone compete together. Why doesn’t swimming fall under that same standard. When the Final Four has the Tennessee Lady Vols following Joakim Noah, then maybe I’ll worry about the NCAA saving a few bucks. But I’m pretty sure they are making enough cash to fund 2 weekends of pool rental. Didnt Fox just pay close to a billion dollars for teh BCS rights?

      Thats all I can come up with for tonight and I need to end this study break and get back to trying not to fail out of school. Just think about it. I mean no disrespect to women at all. I enjoyed our womens team during college. But the NCAA meet needs to stay the way it is. Its best for everyone involved.

    • #30207
      Derek
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      I’m gonna put a few hopeful “non-gender bias” things out there that make me dislike a combined meet with pretty much all my being.

      [1-6 deleted]

      I mean no disrespect to women at all. I enjoyed our womens team during college. But the NCAA meet needs to stay the way it is. Its best for everyone involved.

      I think that the reasons you stated are reasons that have a basis in reality and are debatable. I’m glad to see that you have helped re-steer this debate towards logic!

    • #30208
      The Treat
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      I’m a bit surprised by the sexist undertones of this conversation. Thank you to the posters who addressed the real issues and not ones of bias.

      I was surprised by this comment by facenorth:

      For the men, it’s easier to stay focused when the ladies are nowhere to be seen. They play mind games.

      Excuse me? Keep the women away from the men because the men can’t handle themselves when the women are around? And top of it, women (never men!) play mind games?

      As for your other point, which was not as incendiary but reflects equally damaging bias, that women are only able to relax and by themselves when men are not around, is bizarre. Maybe women DO act differently when men are not around, and maybe so do men. But is separate and different better than together with gradients of behaviors considered acceptable?

      If anything, what you write is a reflection of an overly patriarchial society. Maybe sports is a breeding ground for patriarchy given physical differences between most men and women, but I still believe that sexism is wrong.

      The15mMark also surprised me for identifying:

      fear of what the opposite sex is thinking

      as the reason for poor performance at a national level meet. So you are telling me that if there is a woman watching you swim, you are going to swim slower? The stress of contantly fulfilling your biologically programmed mechanisms to impress a woman by flexing in your speedo will make you unable to perform in the water? That women will spend more time worried about their hair and makeup than their caps and goggles? Further,

      The seperate meet format just allows everyone to be themselves.

      This comment flirts with lunacy. Think about it logically: larger groups of people are MORE heterogeneous, that is, they are MORE diverse. Smaller groups are LESS heterogeneous, that is, they are LESS diverse. Diversity, by its nature, promotes freedom of expression because there is less “standard.” In any given set of people, if you were to graph their traits, you would get a bell shaped curve where most people would end up in the middle and less people towards either side. If you were to make the curve larger, that is, add more people, you would create a broader spectrum of differences and therefore create an atmosphere where people would be MORE likely “to be themselves” because there would be less societal pressure to act in a certain way. If your argument in response has anything to do with creating a team atmosphere in a men’s team that would make it okay for the weird guy to be weird, then you must apply the same logic to a combined team unless you could identify actual physiological differences between men and women that supports your argument. If such scientific proof exists (and it was not commissioned by the Bush Administration), then I wish to see it and stand corrected.

      Of course, if we are all still in middle school and our teammates are still incapable of seeing beyond appearance, age, gender, religion, or school affiliation, then you might be right and I would have to reconsider my arguments based on developmental psychology and human biology. However, most people competing at nationals are 18-22 and far beyond puberty.

      I recognize the controversy I am stirring up, but in this instance, as the moderator of this website, I feel that it is appropriate.

      you say that by expanding the pool of people you would make it more diverse (ok, i can believe that), but to say that it would make easier for someone who is near the outside to be themselves doesn’t exactly apply. first of all, people are not numbers. second of all, if you have a guy who is not very social (especially around girls), he is going to be less comfortable around a bunch of girls and guys rather than just a bunch of guys. that’s a fact. the same goes for girls. if a girl has a crush on some guy on the team, she is going to have things on her mind other than swimming, which is a distraction.

      im also not saying that this is the only case. i know people who perform better when under pressure (for example, when a girl you’re interested in is around). i can say with almost 100% certainty that i performed better knowing that a some girl i was interested in was there. stupid, i know, but it’s the truth.

      the fact of the matter is, some people just perform no matter what. some perform only when the pressure is really on. some fail miserably when the pressure is on. some are socially awkward and some could care less. i think the only way to decide whether to host nationals together would be from a logistics standpoint. in my opinion, if you were to combine the two events, nationals would become too long. you wouldnt get enough rest in between sessions. it would be TERRIBLE for warmups and space on deck. it would also put more stress on the coaches (double the events, less time to focus on each and give individual attention to swimmers).

    • #30209
      miller
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      I’m gonna put a few hopeful “non-gender bias” things out there that make me dislike a combined meet with pretty much all my being.
      1.) Crowds the pool- no matter what pool you go to, there are 8 lanes of competition pool in the morning warmup that everyone will want to be in. This year at MN, with just guys, it was croweded. And thats the best pool possile, so multiply.

      Why do they need to be limited to 8 lanes? I recall swimming at Miami, OH. They’ve got 8 competition lanes, and another 6 or 7 in the “shallow” end that work just fine for warmups. I wasn’t at the meet this year, but

      I’m going to fall back on “How does D-II do it?”

      2.) Crowds the coaches- I know this doesnt apply to small teams, but if you combine the meet then Steen, Parini, Kennedy, Howell and the like would have close to 30 swimmers to be looking after. The gives less personal attention to each swimmer and pretty much drives the coaches crazy at a big meet like that.

      Does the NESCAC have a combined conference meet? That’s more swimmers (if you include the exhibition swimmers that Kenyon and Denison are both sending) to keep track of and somehow, they soldier on and manage to coach their teams.

      3.) Men and Women taper differently. They just do. Guys have more muscle mass and need longer tapers most times. So saying combining the meet to get a program all on the same page lacks merit. I understand having a coach leave for 3 days during taper isnt completely ideal, but men and women are on different programs anyway so might as well separate their meets.

      Yes, they’ve always tapered differently. Doesn’t seem to stop the olympics, senior nationals, NCAA conference meets (many of the at least) and NCAA D-II championships from running a combined meet. I consider this an illogical and invalid argument. Coaches successfully taper their women and men for conference meets all the time. I consider this argument invalid.

      4.) Session would last forever. The best part about an NCAA meet is a short session that doesnt wear you out and gives you plenty of time to eat, nap and get ready. If they combine, kiss the 11am start time goodbye and say hello to the pool at 7am for a 9am start and finish each night around 10. Its back to USS meets.

      D-II does this with a 4 day meet. They keep the times relatively consistent with D-III. It’s different, yes. It’s worse, yes. BUt it’s not 7am starts…that’s ludicrous (or Ludicris, if you prefer).

      6.) In no other sport do men and women even train together, let alone compete together. Why doesn’t swimming fall under that same standard. When the Final Four has the Tennessee Lady Vols following Joakim Noah, then maybe I’ll worry about the NCAA saving a few bucks. But I’m pretty sure they are making enough cash to fund 2 weekends of pool rental. Didnt Fox just pay close to a billion dollars for teh BCS rights?

      How much money does the NCAA (as an organization) get from the BCS? I honestly have no idea, but my impression was that schools make out like bandits while the NCAA gets nearly nothing. That’s not a rhetorical question though, I really don’t know.

    • #30210

      1.) As I said, there are 8 lanes in the COMPETITION pool. Everyone always wants to get time in the main pool, and the size of that doesnt change. 2x the people doing starts, 2x doing pace, etc.

      2.) There is a reason a conference meet is a conference meet and the NCAAs are a national championship. At a national level, swimmers deserve tthe extra attention of having less swimmers around. NCAAs are about elite performance, conferences are about everyone getting a shot and trying to swim fast. Its the difference between an age group state meet and Olympic trials. At a state meet, the head club coach will have 100-200 kids, at OTs when it matters he/she only has a most 10-15 and can give them the attention they deserve. NCAAs are different and should be

      3.) Yes you can taper men and women at the same time. Very doable and not an issue with most teams in swimming. My point was in reference to some people saying they want a combined meet so a team can be trained together and tapered together by ther coach at the same time. i was simply saying that its just not a good enough reason to have a combined meet. You are going to be tapered different even if you are together, so might as well keep it that way.

      4.) I meant 7am warmups. 9am start. which is what D2 has i believe. And even with a 4 day format, finals last twice as long b/c of awards and such for both men and women.

      6.) In reference to whether the NCAA gets money, are you kidding?? Yes the cenferences and schools get most of a bowl payout, I was talking about hte TV contract and lisencing money. He is what I could quickly pull up.

      Fox and the BCS announced a four-year deal worth $320 million that gives Fox the broadcast rights to the Fiesta, Orange and Sugar bowls from 2007-10 and the national title game from 2007-09.

      The NCAA Tournament currently has an 11-year; $6 billion deal with CBS that includes rights to handle NCAA tournament sponsorship, licensing, publishing, radio coverage and its online presence.

      Yea, i think they have enough cash.

      Dont call me illogical, ludacris or invalid. You might disagree witth my points, but they are both factual and logical.

    • #30211
      miller
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      Dont call me ludacris

      Werrrd. Busta Rhymes?

    • #30212
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      1.) As I said, there are 8 lanes in the COMPETITION pool. Everyone always wants to get time in the main pool, and the size of that doesnt change. 2x the people doing starts, 2x doing pace, etc.

      Most teams practice the day before, right? This past year our team had the competition pool to ourselves when we went sometime in the mid-afternoon. It would definitely be more crowded during warmups, but I think that for the most part, a pool’s a pool and as long as you have 25y to warm up in you’ll be fine.

    • #30213

      @miller wrote:

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      Dont call me ludacris

      Werrrd. Busta Rhymes?

      Na. Skee-Lo.

    • #30214
      silentp
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      1.) As I said, there are 8 lanes in the COMPETITION pool. Everyone always wants to get time in the main pool, and the size of that doesnt change. 2x the people doing starts, 2x doing pace, etc.

      Most teams practice the day before, right? This past year our team had the competition pool to ourselves when we went sometime in the mid-afternoon. It would definitely be more crowded during warmups, but I think that for the most part, a pool’s a pool and as long as you have 25y to warm up in you’ll be fine.

      You ever swam at a pool that had bulkhead to bulkhead or end to bulkhead, but the warm up area was wall to wall? Even at the U of Minn pool, there is a large difference.

    • #30215
      99 Red
      Member

      I’ve been to a couple nationals as a spectator, and I don’t think I’ve ever seen space in the stands. I’ve been turned away, unable to get into a session because it sold out. NCAC’s also has this problem sometimes, especially Saturday night. The third biggest problem with combining the meet (behind problems with space for warm ups and sessions that last deep into the night) is doubling the screaming moms and dads. Now, I know some of the people in the stands at mens and womens nats are on deck at the other meet, so it isn’t a 100% increase in the crowd, but for the most part even Minnesota as I recall couldn’t take a 10% increase in the number of spectators.
      IUPUI seats 4,700. That wouldn’t sellout. But there aren’t that many pools that could meet the combined demand.

    • #30216

      Here is my prediction. The swim meet will go to a single meet. Soon Divison I will have a serious debate about going to one meet and there is a 50-50 chacne that they will (it has already been brought up). Two or three years after the meet is combine, no one is going to care. There will be some who will want it to go back to two seperate meets, but they will be a vast minority. Happened with the MIAC, and yes it may only be a confernce meet, but I see no reason why it would be different.

    • #30217
      neswim
      Member

      The combined meet is sounds find if:
      A. No cut back on number of participants
      B. Stretch the program over 4-5 days to help deal with size issue
      C. Host the meet at facilities with sufficient spectator seating (IUPUI, MINN, Univ of MD-College Park, etc).

    • #30218
      sluggo
      Member

      combined nationals would be great for everybody, swimmers, fans, coaches, etc. The idea of boy/girl problems is silly.

    • #30219
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      3.) Yes you can taper men and women at the same time. Very doable and not an issue with most teams in swimming. My point was in reference to some people saying they want a combined meet so a team can be trained together and tapered together by ther coach at the same time. i was simply saying that its just not a good enough reason to have a combined meet. You are going to be tapered different even if you are together, so might as well keep it that way.

      I don’t think anyone said that the men and women needed to train together. My earlier point was the men needed a coach while preparing for NCAA’s and having that coach disappear for a week to go to women’s nationals is a huge drawback. In fact, taper is a good reason, but not enough of one to not combine the meet. Right now both men and women can start tapering for nationals at the same time and the women’s taper ends a week earlier. I don’t think that advantage outweighs the disadvantage of Kennedy being with the women for a week while you’re trying to prepare for your championships.
      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      2.) Crowds the coaches- I know this doesnt apply to small teams, but if you combine the meet then Steen, Parini, Kennedy, Howell and the like would have close to 30 swimmers to be looking after. The gives less personal attention to each swimmer and pretty much drives the coaches crazy at a big meet like that.

      Last I checked these guys had assistants. I know the small teams might not, but even you dismissed that as not a problem.
      @silentp wrote:

      You ever swam at a pool that had bulkhead to bulkhead or end to bulkhead, but the warm up area was wall to wall? Even at the U of Minn pool, there is a large difference.

      Did you even read what you quoted? He said they swam in the competition pool the day before and there was no one there. I don’t see that changing much.
      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Most teams practice the day before, right? This past year our team had the competition pool to ourselves when we went sometime in the mid-afternoon.

      Lastly, I know there aren’t any D2 people here, but why doesn’t someone ask a swimmer or coach at that level what they think. Maybe we’re making a mountain out of a molehill. Do they think it’s that bad or do they like it?

    • #30220
      silentp
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      You ever swam at a pool that had bulkhead to bulkhead or end to bulkhead, but the warm up area was wall to wall? Even at the U of Minn pool, there is a large difference.

      Did you even read what you quoted? He said they swam in the competition pool the day before and there was no one there. I don’t see that changing much.

      Lastly, I know there aren’t any D2 people here, but why doesn’t someone ask a swimmer or coach at that level what they think. Maybe we’re making a mountain out of a molehill. Do they think it’s that bad or do they like it?

      I did read it, but the day before isn’t the same as the day of, at least to me as a swimmer, maybe others feel differently.

      I have talked to D2 people, never specifically about this, but from these conversations I would guess that they have never thought about it, because they don’t know any other way. One thing they would like about seperate meets (coming from a team with a male coach) is more attention from their head coach on what they do. One thing they would not like would be the closeness they feel to their men’s team. I know i have heard from at least 1 women’s team member (back when we were winning our conference meet) that the women’s team fed off of the men’s team energy and wins. They even felt like they partially won in a way.

    • #30221
      Chris Knight
      Member

      If they do this then it will most likely be only in really good pools from now on, correct? I’m sorry, but I just don’t see how the intricacies of one 8 ft. deep, super-fast bulkhead pool can be that different from any other, and I doubt that many, if any, of the athletes making the meet will be unable to adjust to such a facility, whether warm-ups are crowded or not.

    • #30222

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      Lastly, I know there aren’t any D2 people here, but why doesn’t someone ask a swimmer or coach at that level what they think. Maybe we’re making a mountain out of a molehill. Do they think it’s that bad or do they like it?

      I talked to a Friend of mine who is coaching at DII, had some swimmers at Nationals (men and women), and he swam DIII. He said he liked the combined meet. Made it go faster and was less taxing on the coaching Staff. I thinki he meant the meet went faster in terms of being more active, with less down time when he did not have swimmers swimming. Coaching at a couple of Age Group states with two or three swimmers versus ten to fifteen is a huge difference and does make the meet go faster.

    • #30223
      Derek
      Member

      I think the biggest issue that DIII has to grapple with is that in order to go to a combined meet, the meet length MUST increase. If the meet length increases, then more time is spent away from the classroom. DIII prides itself on being about the STUDENT-athlete. Can we reconcile spending less time in the classroom in return for the purported benefits? (Of course, those benefits have to be considered benefits and not liabilities… The most significant, indisputable benefit is cost effectiveness.)

    • #30224
      Psimon3
      Member

      Having swum at a combined national championships for all four years of college, we had the same number of athletes at the meet as the D3 national championships and the meet only lasted about 30 minutes longer than a single gender in prelims and a little longer in finals. I think it is a HUGE advantage for the men espeically on the 2nd day when you have the 200 and the 800 Free relay. The athletes have a little more time to rest between events, which MAY (and I stress that) results in a few faster swim.

      Just my opinion, I could be wrong

    • #30225
      maverick1
      Member

      they could compete on sunday, don’t they do that in ncaa football (bowl games), basketball and many other sports

    • #30226
      Derek
      Member

      Good point mav. No reason why we can’t… Last I checked the NCAA had no religious affiliation. It could be argued that if the meet were held on a Sunday then Monday would turn into a travel day anyway, so then the debate would be “is it better to miss a whole week of class or to miss the end of one week and the beginning of another.” I can’t answer that since I was in college to swim and have fun, getting an education was just kinda something to do.

    • #30227

      You cannot have a NCAA team championship on a Sunday because of some schools’ religious natures prohibit them from competing on a Sunday. Wheaton, Grove and the BYU’s come to mind.

      The Final Four and Bowl Games aren’t apprpriate comparisons. BYU made the basketball tournament a few years back and were actually sent to a much-further bracket becaue the west bracket would have had them playing on a Sunday if they won the first round. As for bowl games, they are not NCAA events and schools can decline invitations, instead opting for different bowl games. There’ve been a couple of extreme cases where a rainout has postponed a Saturday championship until Monday because of a school’s policies. On the conference level, schools have simply ceded a title rather than play on the Sabbath.

      Also on Bowl Games and NCAA tournament revenue – first all of the bowl money goes to conferences. The NCAA doesn’t get a dime, and the billions from CBS get allocated based on division and teams in the tournament. Division III get’s less than 4% of the payout, Division II roughly 7% and the rest is divyed up to schools based on how many teams from their conferences make it in. After that Divisions allocate money differently. In Division II they invest in championships – more participants, better gifts, etc. Division III schools choose to put the money into all kinds of grant programs – for leadership, minorities, education, and everything else.

      Another factor – a combined meet would limit the number of pools that can hold the meet. Emory is never considered by D-II because it lacks the deck space. Seattle is too far, Miami no hotels. It might be easier to get Minnesota because you would ask for one week, not two. Last year was a miracle to get both. Indianapolis is near impossible, especially now that D-II has them every 4 years. That leaves what – Georgia Tech, Buffalo, Maryland, Orlando, St. Louis, Houston.

      Division I will not go to a combined meet in the next 20 years.

    • #30228
      silentp
      Member

      I don’t think a few school’s religious beliefs would stop the NCAA from putting the meet on Sunday, rather than disrupt the education process that it is trying to teach it’s student-athletes.

      Also, Miami has no hotels? This is news to me and they might want to work on that before the Super Bowl! (I am kidding, i know you meant Miami (OH))

    • #30229
      miller
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      I don’t think a few school’s religious beliefs would stop the NCAA from putting the meet on Sunday, rather than disrupt the education process that it is trying to teach it’s student-athletes.

      Also, Miami has no hotels? This is news to me and they might want to work on that before the Super Bowl!

      Oxford, Ohio == Miami University (aka “Miami of Ohio”)

    • #30230
      N Dynamite
      Member

      I can guarantee that if they moved the meet to Sunday Wheaton would be done with the competition Saturday night. Anyone who has gone there or been associated with them knows that (if you don’t believe me ask Coach Lederhouse). There are other schools in the same boat. Believe it or not, there are some athletes out there who feel very strongly about this also and will not compete (or practice) on a Sunday. It’s not so much that the NCAA has religious affiliation as much as they would get a negative publicity backlash, and they would avoid that like the plague.

      Add in the fact that, as Derek mentioned, Monday would become a travel day. Five days of school missed is still five days – it doesn’t matter whether it’s Monday through Friday or Tuesday through Monday. So if you’re going to miss the same amount of time, why upset the schools with religious convictions? The meet won’t move to Sunday.

    • #30231
      miller
      Member

      How does D-II handle this?
      There are probably religious schools at that level as well.

      I think you’re much more likely to see a 4-day meet that is Wed-Sat than Thu-Sun. The religious affiliation thing (even though Jewish athletes are routinely forced to compete on Saturdays even though they shouldn’t need to) will weigh heavily on the decision.

    • #30232
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Mike Alexandrov (52 mid 100 breast) from Northwestern would not swim on Saturdays because of religious reasons. I think he changed his mind about it last year.

    • #30233
      Vic
      Member

      We had the swimming on sundays argument last summer…

      http://tinyurl.com/gb5n4

    • #30234
      facenorth
      Member

      DonCheadle wrote:

      Mike Alexandrov (52 mid 100 breast) from Northwestern would not swim on Saturdays because of religious reasons. I think he changed his mind about it last year.

      The difference there is that Northwestern did not have a stance as an institution and that was likely Alexandrov’s personal choice. While we have seen some athletes from schools who likely would not participate on Sundays vocalize they would be willing to compete, I believe Gyorf said he would last year, that point is irrelevant as the College he attended likely would not allow it. Stance of institution versus stance of athlete.

    • #30235
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I was just providing meaningless information not evidence one way or the other.

    • #30236
      swim5599
      Member

      Yeah from what I have heard ALexandrov did not swim on Saturdays as a choice, however he does at Big ten’s and NCAA’s

    • #30237
      Gyorf
      Member

      hey guys. i like this topic a lot and i have thought about it a bit. If the meet moves to sunday then Wheaton will not let its athletes compete, end of story. It is a school policy, not a matter or personal conviction. If that were the case i think whoever said the ncaa would avoid the negative publicity like the plague, is right. If the ncaa even thought about doing that i can assure you lederhouse would create enough of a fuss by himself to have them re-consider. plus that would take wheaton out of the best race in the world, and i probably would still be depressed if i did not get a chance to swim the 400 free relay this last year.

      As far as a combined meet goes, i like the idea only because i like the idea of making the meet 4 days long, wed-sat. even when it was three days i never went to class at the beginning of the week, i could never focus, i always missed a week anyways. and I always got tired of swimming so many events and i think an extra day would make life a little easier for teams who dont have the luxury to rest their big guns for relay prelims. and who cares about having girls on deck, i say grow up. We had a great relationship with our girls team while i was at wheaton and most people know that we try to make it to cheer for the girls every year, and they do the same for us, so why not move it to one meet, way more cheering, and way more support, plus it keeps us from having the meet at crappy pools like in 2005. sorry, i know you michigan guys like hollands pool, but i def. dont. anywyas, thats my two cents.

    • #30238

      I thought I had read this somewhere before….
      In addition to all that has been said above about Sunday swimming and how certain schools/swimmers would feel about it, the D3 championship handbook’s view is: “If a participating institution has a written policy against competition on a particular day for religious reasons, it shall inform the NCAA championships staff liaison in writing one week before the selection date in order for it or one of its student athletes to be excused from competing on that day. The championships schedule shall be adjusted to accommodate that institution.”

      @miller wrote:

      How does D-II handle this?

      They run their nationals Wednesday to Saturday.

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