Top D3 Schools

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    • #12393

      I was looking at the d3 records, and winning times from the past few decades and it seems like the same schools have had great teams for a long time. In fact, some of the schools are so fast on a regular basis that it is kindof surprising. I dont understand how so many potentially d1 swimmers would go to these d3 schools year in and year out. D3 as far as I know isnt supposed to give money so what is drawing in these high school seniors when they could probably get scholarships at D1 schools.

      I would understand if there were one or two swimmers that stood out, but how are there full rosters of swimmers that would all be competitive at a d1 level on a d3 team. I find it hard to believe that there is no money being given under the table or somehow to these swimmers. Also, at some of these schools most of the swimmers are out of state, which means that if they arent given money they are paying out of state tuition which is much more.

      I just wanted to hear what you think about this.

    • #35934
      Monkey Boy
      Member

      The squeaky wheel gets the grease… πŸ˜‰

    • #35935
      Chris Knight
      Member

      If I’m looking at D1 schools that might throw me a few bucks but where my season will always end in February and the academics aren’t priority 1, vs. an Emory, Hopkins, Williams, Kenyon, etc., where I’ll have to pay but where I can potentially be an All-American and graduate from an outstanding school, I’m picking the D3 school every time. Give these kids some credit, academics matter to them.

      In-state vs. out of state is (almost) completely irrelevant, the vast majority of the top schools in this sport are private and should not have 2 sets of tuition based on residency.

    • #35936
      neswim
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      If I’m looking at D1 schools that might throw me a few bucks but where my season will always end in February and the academics aren’t priority 1, vs. an Emory, Hopkins, Williams, Kenyon, etc., where I’ll have to pay but where I can potentially be an All-American and graduate from an outstanding school, I’m picking the D3 school every time. Give these kids some credit, academics matter to them.

      Agreed….the vast majority of the top Div III swimmers are going to be borderline Div I swimmers…they are not going to a top ten Div I school on a free ride. They may got a scholarship from a Div I school; no shot at NCAA; can hope at best to swim at conference and, for many scholarship conferences their team will not contend for a title. So that might get a scholarship but won’t have the same swimming opportunity.

      Same is true for “mid-major” Div I programs (see Men’s EISL). A handful of swimmers do qualify for NCAAs (Alex Righi and Rathgeber) and will even have a shot at swimming at night. However, they have selected the school based on educational opportunities.

      The best Div III schools offer a great education and a superior swimming experience.

      I’d pick the Div III over the mid-major Div I school UNLESS I really have a chance to make the Div I travel sqaud and compete for NCAA championship. But we rarely see that kind of swimmer in Div III and when it happens it most often a case of someone coming into their own in college.

    • #35937
      miller
      Member

      Amen bruthas.

      I had offers of money (not tons, but some) from mid-tier D1 programs back in the early 1990s wheN i had to pick a school.

      I ended up with 4 legit choices:
      Eastern Michigan University with a tiny bit of money and the hope that I’d end up with a decent scholarship eventually.

      MSU as a walk-on swimmer.

      UofM as a non-swimmer

      and

      Kalamazoo College as a 4-year swimmer with no scholarship.

      That choice was easy for me and it’s easy for lots of the d-3 studs that show up at Kenyon, Emory, Hopkins, Kalamazoo, Hope etc.

      It came down to UofM and Kalamazoo because they were the two top academic institutions on my list and an 18 year old h.s. senior who values academics first and foremost isn’t likely to listen to “yeah but EMU is good too” (even though it’s probably true).

      Once you’re faced with “swim for K or don’t for UofM” I picked K quickly and easily.

    • #35938
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I would say of the top 100 swimmers coming out in any given year, only two or three go Div 3.

      If you are not one of the top 100, then it really become a personal choice because the money just isn’t there.

    • #35939
      miller
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      I would say of the top 100 swimmers coming out in any given year, only two or three go Div 3.

      If you are not one of the top 100, then it really become a personal choice because the money just isn’t there.

      Agreed.

      There’s also that group from #101 to #500 who think they’re in the top 100.

      Some end up at mid-tier D1 programs and some go D3.

    • #35940
      maverick1
      Member

      some end up at terrible d1 programs also….like every team in the mid-continent conference besides oakland

    • #35941
      Greenbacks
      Member

      I faced this predicament when making my college decision. I was a high school All-American. At the big DI schools I was being offered a small amount of money, but making the traveling team, let alone the conference meet, was not a guarantee. I chose a DIII school because I would make an impact out right, and I would most likely make the NCAA meet.

      Many people stand out also because they have dropped considerable time since joining the team. People may want to continue to compete like they did in high school, and they want to make a contribution to the team, where they would be a scrub swimmer at a division I institution. The new environment combined with the coaching/training regiment makes for big drops in many situations.

    • #35942

      people always say they chose a d3 swim school because of the education. But we all know of good schools (academically) in d1 (the ivy league, duke, unc, and the cali public school system). I feel that the big deciding factor between those ivy leaguers, the ivy leaguers of the south and a d3 school, was the actual program. Schools like Harvard and Princeton pick up swimmers who were great, all american high schoolers, but rarely see a significant drop of time. D3 schools like kc, dc, eu, jhu ect have picked up mildly above average swimmer and have them become national champions.

      I think d3 is a better choice, not because of the academics, but because of the dedicated coaching staff, facilities and motivation– (a chance to go to NCAAs and become apart of a national championship team or even an individual national champion).

    • #35943

      just curious.. are d3 teams allowed to guarantee admission to high school seniors and get them into the school without giving money to them?

      also.. i dont really buy that the top d3 swimmers would be average d1 swimmers.. im not talking about the average d3 swimmer.. im saying the best of the best..

      for example.. look at Valery Ladrat.. freshman last year at oachita.. went 55.89 in his 100 breast.. as a freshman.. he would be the fastest breaststroker at cal this year.. are u telling me cal isnt a top d1 school.. or that its not one fo the best academic shcools in the country??

    • #35944
      DUSwim2010
      Member

      ouachita is a dII school which means they can give athletic scholarships

    • #35945
      miller
      Member

      @chunkybearcub137 wrote:

      just curious.. are d3 teams allowed to guarantee admission to high school seniors and get them into the school without giving money to them?

      also.. i dont really buy that the top d3 swimmers would be average d1 swimmers.. im not talking about the average d3 swimmer.. im saying the best of the best..

      for example.. look at Valery Ladrat.. freshman last year at oachita.. went 55.89 in his 100 breast.. as a freshman.. he would be the fastest breaststroker at cal this year.. are u telling me cal isnt a top d1 school.. or that its not one fo the best academic shcools in the country??

      55.89 is exceptionally fast at D3.
      It’s not exceptionally fast at D1. It just isn’t.

      I should add…that doesn’t make Valery a bad swimmer….hell, that’s faster than I ever went. But he’d be a solid but not exceptional D1 swimmer at that speed.

      Your question:
      “are d3 teams allowed to guarantee admission to high school seniors and get them into the school without giving money to them? “

      I’m a little confused by the wording but it sounds like you’re asking can a d3 school use guaranteed admission to a student as a recruiting tool as long as they don’t offer money? Honestly I don’t know. Sounds like stuff that has always gone on (I think some schools even have “slots” for athletes) but I’d suggest you query the rule book on this.

    • #35946
      silentp
      Member

      @chunkybearcub137 wrote:

      for example.. look at Valery Ladrat.. freshman last year at oachita.. went 55.89 in his 100 breast.. as a freshman.. he would be the fastest breaststroker at cal this year.. are u telling me cal isnt a top d1 school.. or that its not one fo the best academic shcools in the country??

      I know he’s D2, but still, just because:

      @Pac 10 Champs wrote:

      7 Hunter, Richard R JR CAL 55.43 54.90 B
      25.43 54.90 (29.47)
      9 Lentz, Graham M SR CAL 55.45 55.38
      25.67 55.38 (29.71)

    • #35947
      Low Tide
      Member

      I do not think there has ever been a top 50 recruit in the nation that has gone D III. Boss and Cole were merely good swimmers coming out of high school (Boss was a 57 low breastroker and I believe and Cole was on that same level), Pedro Monteiro was a 51 high flyer, Lloyd Baron was not even amongst the top sprinters in the nation in high school.

      The vast majority, if not all, of the very fast records you see at D3 are from swimmers whom greatly improved while at college, not from walking in as an uber high schooler (we are still waiting for one though!). Can anyone think of any high schoolers who shocked the D1 world by going D3?

      Div. II can give athletic scholarships, yet Div. III swimming has been faster for decades. Why? I think a lot of it has to do with academics combined with the fact that unless you are Michael Phelps, swimming is not the most lucrative career-choice you could make.

    • #35948
      DonCheadle
      Member

      An interesting subject: Lloyd Baron was a 20.70 in HS and 6’6” . He was probably one of the top 50 recruits in the country.

      Josh boss was a 56.6 in the 100 and split a 25.0 in the 200 medley. Not a big guy though, so all in all probably right around top 50.

      But the list of guys who went D3 who could have got a lot of money (in the form of swimming scholarship) in D1 is very small.

    • #35949
      trout3
      Member

      Div. II can give athletic scholarships, yet Div. III swimming has been faster for decades. Why? I think a lot of it has to do with academics combined with the fact that unless you are Michael Phelps, swimming is not the most lucrative career-choice you could make.

      I think it’s a sheer numbers game. There are many more D3 schools that sponsor swimming compared to D2…. The more swimmers, the chances are greater for faster times.

      General comment reference D3 vs D1…. Many considerations on the differences have already been discussed. Another net/net factor for consideration is “do you want to be a small fish in a big pond or a big fish in a smaller pond”? Also consider that depending on the institution several factors could drive financial support in D3 schools…. If you’re fortunate enough to be smart, well rounded and you also possess that edge for “competition” in a sport that may be enough to get you a grant. A grant won’t be taken away if you for some reason you don’t continue in a sport as an athletic scholarship will.

    • #35950
      neswim
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      I feel that the big deciding factor between those ivy leaguers, the ivy leaguers of the south and a d3 school, was the actual program. Schools like Harvard and Princeton pick up swimmers who were great, all american high schoolers, but rarely see a significant drop of time. D3 schools like kc, dc, eu, jhu ect have picked up mildly above average swimmer and have them become national champions.

      Well I think that Harvard could make a great counter to your thesis…look at Shevick, Cole, Cromwell and now Rathgeber. They all came in as decent swimmers but not top Div I prospects. All coached by Tim Murphy. Shevick finaled in OT, Cole nearly won the mile at NCAAs, Cromwell, another NCAA finalists just went 1:40 in the 200 back at least weekend’s American Short Course Championship. Rathgeber just went 1:44 200 IM at EISL last weekend and will likely final at NCAAs..these are Steen-like drops in time.

      You hit on the real reason to select Div III versus Ivy and that is the opportunity to be part of a team that can contend for a national championship. All of the swimmers listed above went or will go to NCAAs but with very few teammates….a very different experience than swimming for a top Div III school.

    • #35951
      swim5599
      Member

      Actually I think Marc Courtney Brooks was probably one of the top 50 recruits in the country the year he decided to go to Kenyon. I am not 100 % sure what his times were like in HS, but I think he may have been under 1:40 in the 200 free.

      I made a stupid mistake and swam at a mid major d 1 school for a year, if I could go back and change it I would. I would think that kids would pick their schools based on academics and then on whether they could qualify for that DIVISIONS ncaa meet. I can’t tell you how many kids I see just waste away as an avg swimmer at a power d 1 school that could have been potentially a national champ at the d3 level.

    • #35952
      silentp
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      Actually I think Marc Courtney Brooks was probably one of the top 50 recruits in the country the year he decided to go to Kenyon. I am not 100 % sure what his times were like in HS, but I think he may have been under 1:40 in the 200 free.

      While I’m not positive, I think you may be confusing MCB with Read Boon. Read Boon came in as a 1:39 in the 200 and while MCB was fast, I don’t believe he was that fast coming in.

    • #35953
      swim5599
      Member

      Maybe you are right. Did MCB go to St. Xavier or am I just really way off about this?

    • #35954

      @Low Tide wrote:

      (Boss was a 57 low breastroker and I believe and Cole was on that same level), Pedro Monteiro was a 51 high flyer.

      i wouldnt consider 57 low as the top 50 recruit breaststrokers. i always wouldnt say 51 high flyer top 50 either.

    • #35955
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      @Low Tide wrote:

      (Boss was a 57 low breastroker and I believe and Cole was on that same level), Pedro Monteiro was a 51 high flyer.

      i wouldnt consider 57 low as the top 50 recruit breaststrokers. i always wouldnt say 51 high flyer top 50 either.

      Read through the threaad again, Low Tide agrees that a 57 breaststroker is not a top 50 recruit, BUT Boss was a 56.6 and 25.0 in the 50 with relay start.

      Good point whoever brought up Boon.

    • #35956
      silentp
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      Maybe you are right. Did MCB go to St. Xavier or am I just really way off about this?

      Not unless he never got a top 50 time for St. X while in high school

      http://www.stxavier.org/stxavier.aspx?pgID=926

      These times are very impressive when you consider that this is a high school… 1:40 is 11th in the 200 free

    • #35957
      swim5599
      Member

      Ok I am just way off today. I have no idea why I can’t remember where he went to HS, and yes their record board is ridiculous. JOEY H was the man in HS.

    • #35958
      Mickey Mouse
      Member

      Off-topic but check out the Ohio state meet for ridiculously fast times:

      http://www.ohsaa.org/Sports/ohsaa/index.htm

      Mainly the 200 free, 100 fly, 100 free, 500 free – they were swum by 2 guys….but still

    • #35959

      MCB was from Columbus, not highly recruited – Kenyon, Indiana, Ohio State.

      Joey H went to Saint X

      This year’s top recruit goes to . . . . Trinity (TX) – Taylor Clark – 45.8, 1:39.3, 4:32, 51 fly and back.

    • #35960
      Greenbacks
      Member

      Marc Courtney-Brooks went to Columbus St. Charles, and he went a :45.14 his senior at the Ohio High School State Meet.

    • #35961
      The Treat
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      people always say they chose a d3 swim school because of the education. But we all know of good schools (academically) in d1 (the ivy league, duke, unc, and the cali public school system). I feel that the big deciding factor between those ivy leaguers, the ivy leaguers of the south and a d3 school, was the actual program. Schools like Harvard and Princeton pick up swimmers who were great, all american high schoolers, but rarely see a significant drop of time. D3 schools like kc, dc, eu, jhu ect have picked up mildly above average swimmer and have them become national champions.

      I think d3 is a better choice, not because of the academics, but because of the dedicated coaching staff, facilities and motivation– (a chance to go to NCAAs and become apart of a national championship team or even an individual national champion).

      1. ivy’s dont give money for athletics.
      2. duke sucks at swimming for d1 (they’re in the bottom 3 at their conference meet every year, and it’s not bottom 2 b/c Miami doesnt have any swimmers, just some really good divers who almost beat all of Duke’s swim team). the top 5 d3 schools could beat them, maybe more. ACC is a pretty good conference for swimming and it would suck to go to your conference meet and get close to DFL in pretty much every relay.
      3. UNC is a very good school academically, but it’s not in a class with the ivy’s and duke

      i’ve seen average HS swimmers become d3 greats and ive also seen just as average HS swimmers who become d1 greats as well. it all has to do with the seriousness of their HS program, when they hit their growth spurt, how motivated they are, who they train with. too many factors to go through to figure out one commonality.

    • #35962
      The Treat
      Member

      @Mister Obvious wrote:

      MCB was from Columbus, not highly recruited – Kenyon, Indiana, Ohio State.

      Joey H went to Saint X

      This year’s top recruit goes to . . . . Trinity (TX) – Taylor Clark – 45.8, 1:39.3, 4:32, 51 fly and back.

      top recruit for what? d3 or everyone?

    • #35963

      Marc was 1:39.2 in the 200, 20.9 in the 50, 45.1 in the 100 and I believe went in the 4:38 range in 500. He was a big recruit and had major offers from IU and OSU. The guy was an absolute stud in HS.

    • #35964

      duke has sent swimmers to the ACC and yea, they have been piss poor lately, but they have sent kids to ncaas. and lets not pretend that schools dont give money for athletics, its called financial aid. all financial aid given is deserved, i have seen more money given as an incentive.

      lets not forget the time where d3 swimmers were allowed to swim at d1 nationals. not many kids went and if i can recall from memory, most of the kids who participated and score against these d1 studs were from kenyon.

    • #35965
      swim5599
      Member

      I thought that Courtney Brooks was about that fast in the 200. He obviously got better and still has the best freestyle stroke I have ever seen at the D 3 level

    • #35966
      The Treat
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      duke has sent swimmers to the ACC and yea, they have been piss poor lately, but they have sent kids to ncaas. and lets not pretend that schools dont give money for athletics, its called financial aid. all financial aid given is deserved, i have seen more money given as an incentive.

      lets not forget the time where d3 swimmers were allowed to swim at d1 nationals. not many kids went and if i can recall from memory, most of the kids who participated and score against these d1 studs were from kenyon.

      well doesnt everyone send swimmers to ACC’s? πŸ˜‰

      when was the last time they sent someone to NCAA’s? i’m too lazy to look up.

      it’s true there is financial aid, but everyone gets it and we can just pretend that everything is even.

    • #35967

      plenty make it. one name comes into mind, NC State Cullen Jones, won the 50 last year-19.18

    • #35968
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      plenty make it. one name comes into mind, NC State Cullen Jones, won the 50 last year-19.18

      He meant from Duke…

    • #35969

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      plenty make it. one name comes into mind, NC State Cullen Jones, won the 50 last year-19.18

      He meant from Duke…

      he meant north carolina

    • #35970
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      duke has sent swimmers to the ACC and yea, they have been piss poor lately, but they have sent kids to ncaas. and lets not pretend that schools dont give money for athletics, its called financial aid. all financial aid given is deserved, i have seen more money given as an incentive.

      lets not forget the time where d3 swimmers were allowed to swim at d1 nationals. not many kids went and if i can recall from memory, most of the kids who participated and score against these d1 studs were from kenyon.

      well doesnt everyone send swimmers to ACC’s? πŸ˜‰

      when was the last time they sent someone to NCAA’s? i’m too lazy to look up.

      it’s true there is financial aid, but everyone gets it and we can just pretend that everything is even.

      No, I’m pretty sure in the first sentence that he quoted it says “Duke” sent people to ACC’s. Treat was asking about the last time Duke sent someone to NCAAs as opposed to their conference meet. Wickedfoolish used an example of a different school from the ACC sending someone to NCAAs. Read the thread. Think. Post. That’s generally how it works.

    • #35971
      Derek
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      Read the thread. Think. Post. That’s generally how it works.

      Idealism sure is nice, N Dynamite.

    • #35972

      if you read what he posted, he mentioned “acc’s” then used “they”, in reference to “acc’s”. secondly, for the men side (i dont care about the womens) they qualified a swimmer named Andy Storm last year and the year before. he didnt swim last year because he broke his foot right after accs.

    • #35973
      The Treat
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      duke has sent swimmers to the ACC and yea, they have been piss poor lately, but they have sent kids to ncaas. and lets not pretend that schools dont give money for athletics, its called financial aid. all financial aid given is deserved, i have seen more money given as an incentive.

      lets not forget the time where d3 swimmers were allowed to swim at d1 nationals. not many kids went and if i can recall from memory, most of the kids who participated and score against these d1 studs were from kenyon.

      well doesnt everyone send swimmers to ACC’s? Wink

      when was the last time they sent someone to NCAA’s? i’m too lazy to look up.

      it’s true there is financial aid, but everyone gets it and we can just pretend that everything is even.

      actually if you read my post, that is not what i meant.

      let me break it down for you.

      you said.

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      duke has sent swimmers to the ACC and yea, they have been piss poor lately, but they have sent kids to ncaas.

      so my first sentence was a little quip responding to the first part of your sentence commenting on how sending someone to ACC’s isnt anything special because every single school in the ACC gets to send their swimmers to conference.

      my second sentence was in response to the second part of your sentence, where you said that duke has sent kids to NCAA’s. why would i ask when the last time someone from ACC was sent to nationals. in a previous post in this thread i mentioned how ACC’s was a pretty good conference. anyone who follows swimming knows that it’s not the top conference, but they always send people.

      ill try and spell things out a little better for you next time.

      in other news, eric dunn was under 4:00 last year in the IM.

    • #35974
      swim5599
      Member

      That is a damn good question though. I have no idea when Duke last sent a guy to NCAA’s. The only thing I know about them now is that their best breaststroker is from Naperville Illinois.

    • #35975

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      if you read what he posted, he mentioned “acc’s” then used “they”, in reference to “acc’s”. secondly, for the men side (i dont care about the womens) they qualified a swimmer named Andy Storm last year and the year before. he didnt swim last year because he broke his foot right after accs.

      Andy Storm?? He didn’t qualify for NCAAs. As I recall, his 100/200 breast would have been a solid D3 B cuts, don’t think he was any faster than 2:02/03 and 57 in the 100. They haven’t had any men close to NCAA cuts in at least the past four years. Kevin Arthofer (senior this year) was the closest guy the last couple of years in the 100 and 200 breast. Hes the guy 5599 is talking about.

    • #35976
      JHU84
      Member

      @wickedfoolish wrote:

      lets not forget the time where d3 swimmers were allowed to swim at d1 nationals. not many kids went and if i can recall from memory, most of the kids who participated and score against these d1 studs were from kenyon.

      Jon Blank JHU 81 did well at D1’s at the then new texas swim center

    • #35977
      polarbear
      Member

      Well I think that Harvard could make a great counter to your thesis…look at Shevick, Cole, Cromwell and now Rathgeber. They all came in as decent swimmers but not top Div I prospects. All coached by Tim Murphy. Shevick finaled in OT, Cole nearly won the mile at NCAAs, Cromwell, another NCAA finalists just went 1:40 in the 200 back at least weekend’s American Short Course Championship. Rathgeber just went 1:44 200 IM at EISL last weekend and will likely final at NCAAs..these are Steen-like drops in time.

      You hit on the real reason to select Div III versus Ivy and that is the opportunity to be part of a team that can contend for a national championship. All of the swimmers listed above went or will go to NCAAs but with very few teammates….a very different experience than swimming for a top Div III school.

      Neswim,

      While your post was a while ago, I do have to disagree with you slightly. As one of the assistant coaches who helped recruit those kids, Shevchik was on the National B team in high school and came from Tim Murphy’s club team after turning down a Stanford scholarship offer, Cole went 9:03 in the 1000 in high school and turned down I believe a UVA scholarship offer, Cromwell was a high performer and top recruit for the year (even after his brother floundered in the program) and Rathgeber was on the National Junior Team — all of those guys were highly recruited legitimate prospects at Div I teams and definitely not Div III prospects.

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