Title IX

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    • #12834

      I’m sure this debate has been discussed a million times. But usually I just hear it from cauliflower eared wrestlers who want to rape me.

      So I was at the Mac Invite at St. Kate’s Saturday and started talking to Mini-Chub and Mac of the MIAC about why teams like Concordia and Augsburg have womens teams, but no guys team.

      They told me it was Title IX, and that a lot of DI programs have been shut down due to this too.

      Is this true?

      I know not a single female posts on this site (this site is like the line to get into a Star Wars premier), but if anyone can present a good argument to what purpose it serves for Concordia and Augsburg not to have guys teams, I’m listening.

      St. Mary’s, Hamline, and Mac have proved through the years that you only need a few guys to swim a meet.

    • #41007

      This is by no means confirmed, but at the D1 level I’ve heard of Title 9 ending some men’s seasons prematurely. From what I’ve heard, the Title 9 reports come in after Christmas when many teams are on Xmas training in places like Hawaii, Puerto Rico, etc. When the reports come in, the team is told how many men they are allowed to have on their team in order to fulfill the requirements, which in some cases ends seasons for some of the athletes who are flown home immediately. I would be so pissed if I got to Hawaii for the D1 training only to find out my school didn’t have enough female athletes and I was done…..

    • #41008

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      I know not a single female posts on this site …

      I should refer you to the newly opened forum devoted entirely to women’s swimming:
      https://d3swimming.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=56

      While you may be right that the moderator, Kristin, is possibly the only female posting on the site, hopefully this will draw in more females so we can change your above statement.

    • #41009
      Tiger2
      Member

      The problem, as usual, is football…a ridiculous number of athletes for just one sport…it throws the balance way off.

    • #41010

      I thought it was based on the number of sports, not athletes.

      Someone please confirm.

    • #41011
      Psimon3
      Member

      Title IX compliance relates to the proportionate number of athletes representative to the enrollment of the institution.

      For example:
      If Left Nut State University has a 54/46 female to male ratio in their academic enrollment, the athletics program must have the same ratio for opportunities for women.

      Title IX compliance is based on what is know as the “Three prong test”. They are as follows:
      Prong one – Providing athletic opportunities that are substantially proportionate to the student enrollment, OR
      Prong two – Demonstrate a continual expansion of athletic opportunities for the underrepresented gender, OR
      Prong three – Full and effective accommodation of the interest and ability of underrepresented gender.

      Now, being compliant with either prongs 2 or 3 is regarded as a temporary fix and that most schools that have tried to rest solely on those have been smacked by the NCAA and the courts.

      There has only been one reported instance where Title IX was used in favor of men. Western Kentucky was cited to have had too few scholarships available for men than women (20 to be exact) and for this reason, they moved from D-1AA football to D-1A (an addition of 22 more scholarships.

      There is one MAJOR exception to Title IX. If the school recieves NO federal funding, then they are not bound by Title IX. The only schools i know of that meet that criteria (there may be more). Wabash College and Hillsdale College.

    • #41012
      gcc62
      Member

      @Psimon3 wrote:

      There is one MAJOR exception to Title IX. If the school recieves NO federal funding, then they are not bound by Title IX. The only schools i know of that meet that criteria (there may be more). Wabash College and Hillsdale College.

      The two schools are Hillsdale and Grove City (Hillsdale does not sponsor swimming). The reason this exception exists is because Grove City took their case to the Supreme Court back in the early 80’s and won. Neither school receives federal funding of any type. Most schools can’t afford to make a stand like this – they have too much debt. If Wabash also fits this category it’s news to me.

      Dave Fritz
      Head Men’s Swimming and Diving Coach
      Grove City College

    • #41013
      Psimon3
      Member

      I wasn’t sure about about Grove City but that brings the list up to three schools that are exempt that I am aware of (Again, there may be more). Wabash has fought receiving federal aid for years so as to remain an all male institution. Their Alumni base is so deep they have had the backing to make their endowment incredibly large.

      Anyone who is interested in looking up a school and their federal status may do so at the Office of Post Secondary Education website.

      http://ope.ed.gov/athletics/search.asp

    • #41014

      Wow, sweet insight.

      Looks like most MIAC schools are in the 50/50 – 60/40 range.

      I couldn’t find St. Kates, St. Bens, or St. John’s (mono-gendered schools). I know it would be 100/0, but still wanted to check it out.

      If the school does not offer athletic scholarships, does that change any factors?

    • #41015
      CRUNCHYSOCK
      Member

      Title made perfect sense in 1970 or whatever, and perfectly achieved it’s aim long ago. It is now an antiquated ridicularity that needs to be stopped. Wait, more dudes like sports than chicks? Well slap me in the forhead with a limp .

      Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure Wonderboy will not hesitate) but wasn’t Title IV the reason Iowa State had to cut their Men’s program? That was a shame. Now there are basically only 2 D1 programs within like 500 miles.*

      *If anyone give me the exact mileage to Chicago or something, please save yourself some time and jump in front of a train.

    • #41016
      silentp
      Member

      @CRUNCHYSOCK wrote:

      Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure Wonderboy will not hesitate) but wasn’t Title IV the reason Iowa State had to cut their Men’s program? That was a shame. Now there are basically only 2 D1 programs within like 500 miles.*

      *If anyone give me the exact mileage to Chicago or something, please save yourself some time and jump in front of a train.

      I won’t quote you mileage, although it would be Madison that is the next closest, not any of the Chicago schools. Unless USD or SDSU are closer, as they are both either D1 or in the transition. UND (North Dakota) will also be moving to D1. All of those schools will be close…

      Iowa State is 1 of several Big 12 schools who saw their swimming program cut. Nebraska actually had a top 10 program before it was cut. The Big 12 now has 3 swimming schools for men.

    • #41017
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Didn’t Arkansas cut their mens program as well? I thought they had done this due to the overwhelming need for a new basketball arena for the mens team. This was a while back but I remember it being rumored at the very least.

    • #41018
      CRUNCHYSOCK
      Member

      Madison was the second of the two I was referencing. I do not consider any of the schools in the Dakotas as DI, and never will. I was guessing that Chicago was the closest after Madison. I think either Milwaukee or GB was DI, but they sucked, and I’m not even sure they still have a team. If somebody does know the answer to this, please keep in mind that I could not care less.

    • #41019
      silentp
      Member

      @CRUNCHYSOCK wrote:

      Madison was the second of the two I was referencing. I do not consider any of the schools in the Dakotas as DI, and never will. I was guessing that Chicago was the closest after Madison. I think either Milwaukee or GB was DI, but they sucked, and I’m not even sure they still have a team. If somebody does know the answer to this, please keep in mind that I could not care less.

      With your mention of Iowa State, I assumed you meant Iowa as the 2nd team. They also suck though.

    • #41020
      CRUNCHYSOCK
      Member

      My bad, forgot about Iowa entirely.

    • #41021

      The Iowa State Coach, Tip Hedrick, was my coach in the 9th grade. He decided, when I was in 10th grade, to pursue his dream of coaching D1 swimming. He interned with Stanford and Texas and didn’t get paid for 2 years. He landed the Iowa State gig a few years later, and did a pretty good job getting swimmers to Nats. He got canned because of either Title IX, or because Mac of the MIAC thought it was pretty lame for a 40 year old coach to shave and taper for Master meets, and race 14 year old kids (Mac of the MIAC) after practice. Probably the former, but the later should not be overlooked.

      @CRUNCHYSOCK wrote:

      Title made perfect sense in 1970 or whatever, and perfectly achieved it’s aim long ago. It is now an antiquated ridicularity that needs to be stopped. Wait, more dudes like sports than chicks? Well slap me in the forhead with a limp .

      Correct me if I’m wrong (and I’m sure Wonderboy will not hesitate) but wasn’t Title IV the reason Iowa State had to cut their Men’s program? That was a shame. Now there are basically only 2 D1 programs within like 500 miles.*

      *If anyone give me the exact mileage to Chicago or something, please save yourself some time and jump in front of a train.

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