Team’s Best Relays in 07 Respectively

Agree to disagree.

Hope’s: 200 or 400 Free Relay. Why? They graduate Blohm and Vrogindewey but have freshman who have already split 46.9 and 47.0 coming in and we keep hearing about a d1 sprint transfer. Can someone confirm? Not to mention the drops from Vanderbrook (who took just about a year off before going from 48.0 to 46.8 and Vogelzang who also had a nice drop in his rookie season.

Kalamazoo: 400 Medley. As much as you would think the 200 medley because you have one of the top 60 50M breaststrokers in the world, the 400 medley is still the ticket because the other three members of the relay will have better 100s than 50s.

Olivet: 200 Medley. Bringing in almost a B cut 100 guy needs to translate into a nice 50 guy as well. Fetters has more speed and he should be on the fly leg with Powers outfront for a very nice out make both of Olivet’s medleys far more dangerous than most people probably think right now.

Calvin: 800 Free. The addition of Toll makes this a no brainer. I believe someone said he was a 1:44 in HS. Add that to the Peregrine, JBG, Ress combo already in place and it is immediately faster than their best relay from a year ago.

Albion: 800 Free. Krone and Bacon give one of the better 1-2 punches in the league and a freshman distance guy coming in give the Brits three pretty strong legs. Can Gunderson get up and go for an entire 200 is the real question.

Alma: 200 Medley. Gostomski, Abrams, flyer from Harper Creek and ? Not good but a step in the right direction.

Hope: 400 FR, they will probably do well in the 200 FR as well, but this was a better relay for them last year and will be this year too.

Kzoo: 200 Medley, because the only person better at a 100 than a 50 is their anchor.

Calvin: 800, always has been and with their incoming swimmers, will probably continue to be.

Olivet: 200 medley, a single swimmer doesn’t change their best relay, they won this one last year and will look to defend it.

I have to agree with SilentP. Zoo’s 2 medley will be stronger than their 4. Espinosa is a very big reason for that (from what I hear). But I also feel that Dekker (based on splits from last year) had a more impressive 50 back than 100 back. For someone that is not a backstroker by nature (the impressive thing is that might be his worst stroke) it is far easier to fake a 50 in stroke than a 100 in stroke. They also had two different flyers on the medleys so that doesn’t make this argument much easier.

It’s funny to me how relays are always such an interesting topic. They’re also almost always far more fun to talk about on a discussion board like this.

I guess I have my own theories on the question I am about to pose but I was hoping for some other opinions as well.

Hope has won the last 18 200 Free Relays at the MIAA meet, dating back to 1989.
And 16 of the last 17 400 Free Relays, going back to 1990.

The other relays they have experienced some success (hold both MIAA Open records in the medleys and have won a National Title in the 800 Free Relay over the same time period) but those other three relays have not come anywhere near the type of streak that the two shorter free relays have. Ironically enough those two relays haven’t had quite as much success on the national level as the other three.

I guess what I am asking is, why? Has Hope just been blessed with great sprinters? Is Patnott that gifted in maximizing sprinters potential? Or has Hope just been taking advantage of where others are weak, as no other team in the MIAA has ever been under 1:24.

I do think Patnott is better at getting the best out of people’s ability to sprint. Everyone that swims for Hope (with a few exceptions) turns into a 50/100 guy, with ability in their own events as well. I do not know why it is that they win the relays, but it think it’s mostly mental. Even when K had as good or better sprinters, the mental edge went to Hope and they touched the wall first. Their attitude is what makes them win but maybe that will change going into the future, i don’t know.

Even when K had as good or better sprinters

Sorry, this has never been true.

I believe that we can all agree on the definition of being “as good” as being “equal”.

Neither one of those times are equal, Hope was faster. Thus, Hope’s are better. I would rather have had Hope sprinters in both cases than K sprinters.

Also, in reference to this:

In 2001 at Nats Kzoo went like a 1:24.5 in he 200 Free Relay with Domin leading off in a 22.3. Keep in mind he had been a 20.9 earlier that year. I am pretty sure that everyone else on the relay split under 20.9 That relay SHOULD have been a 1:23.5 which would be right around the MIAA record (before last season).

This has got to be a joke. “Should have been”? Once, I spilt 23.4 on a relay but I SHOULD have been a 20.9. Turns out I am 5’8″, didn’t start swimming soon enough and wasn’t strong enough. But hey, I SHOULD have been a 20.9.

I am sorry that Domin lead off with a 22.3. Another way they are better (vs. “as good as”) than K sprinters; Hope sprinters put it togehter when it matters.

@stiles wrote:

I believe that we can all agree on the definition of being “as good” as being “equal”.

Neither one of those times are equal, Hope was faster. Thus, Hope’s are better. I would rather have had Hope sprinters in both cases than K sprinters.

Also, in reference to this:

In 2001 at Nats Kzoo went like a 1:24.5 in he 200 Free Relay with Domin leading off in a 22.3. Keep in mind he had been a 20.9 earlier that year. I am pretty sure that everyone else on the relay split under 20.9 That relay SHOULD have been a 1:23.5 which would be right around the MIAA record (before last season).

This has got to be a joke. “Should have been”? Once, I spilt 23.4 on a relay but I SHOULD have been a 20.9. Turns out I am 5’8″, didn’t start swimming soon enough and wasn’t strong enough. But hey, I SHOULD have been a 20.9.

I am sorry that Domin lead off with a 22.3. Another way they are better (vs. “as good as”) than K sprinters; Hope sprinters put it togehter when it matters.

Yeah Cheadle, 1 to 2 tenths of a second is hardly equal! That’s not even close! As good as, with the depth of both teams, would not even be close when we’re talking about between 1 – 2 tenth of a second over the 4 top swimmers and one of the top swimmers on K is left of the relay by a coach’s decision for a MUCH slower sprinter as far as relay exchanges go. How dare the 2 even be compared!

Also, we need to all thank Stiles for telling us that Hope sprinters put it together when it matters. This is a point that had been overlooked throughout everyone’s posts on this sites over the 2 years plus this site has been in existance. Never once has a poster brought up such an ingenius idea. Not even on this very thread had anyone mentioned the fact that Hope sprinters step up more and do better when put on a relay than K swimmers. I had not mentioned this in the post right before stile’s first post and none of us had mentioned it before that either. He clearly has insight into these relays far beyond our comprehension.

Well golly gee, I don’t mean to get in the middle of this, but the idiom for ‘as good as;’ is ‘practically’ or ‘nearly.’ Kinda like the old saying ‘it’s as good as new.’

And Don, I believe Houston won 89 games last season. And, even though I can see them winning that amount this year (ok not really), I don’t think they will have as good of year this year.

@stiles wrote:

Hope sprinters put it togehter when it matters.

apparently nationals doesn’t count in this statement

To Don Cheadle, that is not as good as. I am sorry, you are wrong.

TO Maverick, good dig. I do like that out of you but they are still “better than” Kzoo…even at Nats.

The other thing to remember where this start:

Even when K had as good or better sprinters

You also said or better. Please give examples of how those numebrs add up to being better?

To Trousers Ron, when someone says, “as good as new,” it means that it is in act NOT NEW and in some way needs to be qualified. If it is was NEW (or in our case, equal) one woudl say NEW. SO by saying “as good as” or better, you are skipping equal in the comparisons. Please explain.

@stiles wrote:

The other thing to remember where this start:

Even when K had as good or better sprinters

You also said or better. Please give examples of how those numebrs add up to being better?

Numbers? I thought we agreed that K swimmers haven’t historically gotten up as well as Hope swimmers. Therefore they could be better sprinters, without faster times. I know this might not make sense to you, but they could be considered “better” because of their in season performances but their actual times were not as good, meaning the Hope swimmers were actually better. I also didn’t take the time to look it up.

What started as a compliment to Hope sprinters has now turned into an arguement due to stiles, in the future i will refrain from giving props to the Hope swimmers in fear of making one statement that is not deemed acceptable by certain Hope swimmers. My apologies.

Good one silentp. I can see that by backing away from the arguement is goign to eb the best bet for you because I am right. I understand that you would not want to talk about this anymore.

@stiles wrote:

Good one silentp. I can see that by backing away from the arguement is goign to eb the best bet for you because I am right. I understand that you would not want to talk about this anymore.

I was wrong about them being better but was right about as good as. Even TrousersRon agreed with that, you just couldn’t read his argument… must be that Hope education 😉 kidding, we all know it’s the 3rd best school in the MIAA according to all major reports.

did that hurt you to say?

next time say what you mean or do they not teach that at the third rate degree mill you “graduated” from?

Nope, it did not hurt to say. Did it hurt you to come to realize you were wrong about being as good as? When you get back from the tanner, let me know.

Sorry man, laid off the tanner years ago.

http://www.cancer.gov/newscenter/tip-sheet-tanning-booths

First off we got way side tracked by silentp and stiles’ sissy fight over the better school, and who is right OR who is wrong. Here is your answer…you’re both wrong, so shut up (p.s. stiles congrats buddy you still havent called me back, but that’s ok i still love you)

On to this fancy quote

@silentp wrote:

I do think Patnott is better at getting the best out of people’s ability to sprint. Everyone that swims for Hope (with a few exceptions) turns into a 50/100 guy, with ability in their own events as well. I do not know why it is that they win the relays, but it think it’s mostly mental. Even when K had as good or better sprinters, the mental edge went to Hope and they touched the wall first. Their attitude is what makes them win but maybe that will change going into the future, i don’t know.

Sso you are telling me that everyone who comes into Hope college (with the exception of a few) turns into a 50/100 swimmer. Wrong…wrong wrong wrong. With the exception of a few means, the rest of the team who doesnt swim the 50 or 100 at league meet. I can name 13 people out of the 26 on the team last year that were 50/100 oriented, 2 of those sprinters (Kevin Obrein, Andre Bravo) made turn arounds from being sprinters to distance and stroke. So now you have 11 people that actually swam 50/100 at leagues, but apparently the rest of the group on the team (15 other people) is the “Exception of a few”

Your statement saying that pattnot makes people into sprinters, with the exception of a few, is total bullshit. Everyone on the team started experimenting with new strokes and new events, so to say that everyone came in and started swimming the 50/100 + there own event that they swam in highschool is retarded

@el radio wrote:

First off we got way side tracked by silentp and stiles’ sissy fight over the better school, and who is right OR who is wrong. Here is your answer…you’re both wrong, so shut up (p.s. stiles congrats buddy you still havent called me back, but that’s ok i still love you)

On to this fancy quote

@silentp wrote:

I do think Patnott is better at getting the best out of people’s ability to sprint. Everyone that swims for Hope (with a few exceptions) turns into a 50/100 guy, with ability in their own events as well. I do not know why it is that they win the relays, but it think it’s mostly mental. Even when K had as good or better sprinters, the mental edge went to Hope and they touched the wall first. Their attitude is what makes them win but maybe that will change going into the future, i don’t know.

Sso you are telling me that everyone who comes into Hope college (with the exception of a few) turns into a 50/100 swimmer. Wrong…wrong wrong wrong. With the exception of a few means, the rest of the team who doesnt swim the 50 or 100 at league meet. I can name 13 people out of the 26 on the team last year that were 50/100 oriented, 2 of those sprinters (Kevin Obrein, Andre Bravo) made turn arounds from being sprinters to distance and stroke. So now you have 11 people that actually swam 50/100 at leagues, but apparently the rest of the group on the team (15 other people) is the “Exception of a few”

Your statement saying that pattnot makes people into sprinters, with the exception of a few, is total bullshit. Everyone on the team started experimenting with new strokes and new events, so to say that everyone came in and started swimming the 50/100 + there own event that they swam in highschool is retarded

WOW, take note K swimmers, this is what a compliment to Hope swimmers get you, them arguing with you. You’re right, people who go to Hope don’t becoming better at the 50/100 in order to help their relays in addition to improving in their own strokes. They only improve in their own strokes and do not gain the ability to swim a fast 50 or 100 for a relay. My thoughts they they improved in these areas because of being well trained and having a strong tradition was “retarded” and in fact they come in as very good 50 and 100 swimmers and that is why they are so tough in the relays, it has nothing to do with the great job Patnott does. My apologies.

silentp…i apologize for reading you statement wrong. For some reason i thought you were trying to say something different.

@el radio wrote:

silentp…i apologize for reading you statement wrong. For some reason i thought you were trying to say something different.

It’s all good, i think people just assumed i was saying something different because in the past i have obviously been biased against towards K. While i will continue to be biased (and all of us will) and have to give credit where credit is due.

I will post more on this subject at a later time to take the back of my Smurf friend, but in the meantime, not taking anything away from Coach Patnott…but I would contribute the majority of Boss’ drops were merely because he was in the pool more in college. What I mean is that Hope swam more yards because they had more time and Hope lifted more weights because they had more time than Jenison High School. I think you see where I’m going with this – it doesn’t take anything away from what Boss accomplished or what Coach Patnott did. And it definitely doesn’t take anything away from Jenison High School’s program because it was a freaken good time.

The last half of this thread i was laughing out loud. Silentp i give you props for giving credit where credit is due. It is not easy to compliment a team that you really don’t care for. As for stiles…..he’s just mad because he is married now and can’t go hang out in holland and close down the bars (unless his wife says he can). We are all biased for our teams, and being a sprinter for hope here is my input on the situation. In my mind going into any sprint event, individual or relay, i thought i could beat everyone. In my individuals is didn’t quite work out for me but i knew on every relay that we couldn’t be beat. I will give props to K now for beating us in the 400 FR in 2003. That was by far my least favorite race of my college career but Ryan Crowley had one hell of a swim. So guys keep on truckin and if you keep arguing that’s cool, the bottom line is we like the schools we went to and not the rival….wierd.

I guess that I just don’t understand why all the K guys have to team up on poor little Stiles. It isn’t like he is this cocky son-of-a-bitch weasel that prances around like a monkey. He is only 5 feet tall for crying outloud. He can’t defend himself. The only way he can defend himself is by throwing shoes out of houses at moving cars. As of late, he has resorted to throwing harder items like baseballs.

So come on people…leave the poor, little, married kid alone. He’ll come around eventually (eventhough I thought marriage would bring him around).

Poor guy is married, come on guys. Leave him alone. We all know that getting married means that you don’t get any.

… Kevin Obrein, Andre Bravo

Who the hell are they?

who cares…they’re not all that sweet

radio

you are such an idiot…why rip on your own teammates?

Back on topic, thinking more on the subject, i am not sure if any of the relays for Olivet will really stand out. While their medleys improve, it is not by much. The only real difference will come from 2 places: 1) the difference between Powers and the New Kid 2) how much they improve next season. Since the difference between what Fetters could do compared to what Powers could do in back was bigger than that difference with Koji in fly, switching them wouldn’t help, it would probably hurt.
That being said, Olivet should improve their relays across the board and not have a single “bad” relay. B cuts are possible, but making it to the meet will be very difficult. Their best shot is still in the 200 MR, but their star of the relay (Meisner) is actually the worst at this distance of his stroke.

so would you say for the 4 medley for olivet…their best chance for a solid relay would be a line up of:

Mitch Powers
Dustin Meisner
Ananta Fetters
New freestyler

is that how you guys would see it? That is what i think would work best for for their 4 medley. But if Powers can’t improve their front leg then I have would have to say:

Fetters
Meisner
Koji
Powers/NewGuy

I thought both fetters and powers were about even in the back? who is better on paper? and which of these two would work best for their 2 Med relay. criticize me if im wrong

personally i think Fetters lead off would be a better 4 med and powers lead off would be a better 2 med

Fetters is actually a ways faster in both the 50 and the 100. The 100 time for Powers is not under 55. You cannot get a relay into NCAAs with a time over 55, unless maybe if you were Kenyon. Koji isn’t much slower than Fetters in fly, their difference is very small. It could come down to the relay start, which i have no idea how that would go. They are a deep team but lack that star power to put a relay into NCAAs… in my opinion.

They should have a very sound 800 Free Relay as well. Although there is no stand out on the relay, there is no weak spot either. I will go as far as to say that their slowest split will be faster than Calvin’s slowest split and maybe Hope’s slowest split as well. Although I do not see Olivet’s 800 Free Relay being invited to Nationals, it certainly deserves some talk with the addition of Nick Stone and Nate Busscher. Not to mention if this ‘stud’ 100 guy they are bringing in can put together a 200. I still would like to know who this 100 guys is though.

@TheAnswer wrote:

They should have a very sound 800 Free Relay as well. Although there is no stand out on the relay, there is no weak spot either. I will go as far as to say that their slowest split will be faster than Calvin’s slowest split and maybe Hope’s slowest split as well. Although I do not see Olivet’s 800 Free Relay being invited to Nationals, it certainly deserves some talk with the addition of Nick Stone and Nate Busscher. Not to mention if this ‘stud’ 100 guy they are bringing in can put together a 200. I still would like to know who this 100 guys is though.

That is a good point. When i was trying to figure out their weakest relay, i really couldn’t come up with one. They will be solid in all the relays, but I do not see them winning any of them, or sending any of them to NCAAs. I have no idea if this sprinter can move up and swim the 200 or if he’ll be used on all the other relays, therefore taking him out of contention for this one. I also know their guys coming in swam well in the 200 in high school, but will they do the same in college? The real question is if they can improve or not. I don’t see them breaking 7, and if they do, just barely, so while this relay should have no problem getting 3rd (Albion though, maybe?) i don’t see it doing too much damage.

I have to think that Olivet’s 800 will be under 7, a matter of how far is the question. This, of course, is based on the assumption that their returners will improve as well as their freshman. Stubbs has done a nice job, and although there are not any real Olivet posters on here anymore, that has not gone unseen. When looking at the team you root for, swim for, swam for, it’s easy to see the drops coming whereas other teams, rival teams, you can always see them failing to get faster for some strange reason unbeknownst to me. They’ll get faster.

Something to look at is who sits what relay at the league meet next year. This is too easy to overlook when we’re talking about how fast certain relays will be. Often times you’ll include one swimmer in all of them (Kurt Blohm at Hope for example from last year). Calvin is in more of a pickle than anyone else but no need to worry, I’ve got a solution in July for DG and the rest of the MIAA coaches.

K:
Espinosa sits the 8 Free, as does Hennigar.
Dekker sits the 2 Free.

Olivet:
Canada sits the 200 MR
Powers sits the 800 (no brainer)

Hope:
VanderBroek 200 MR

Calvin:
Boumgarden 4MR
Resseguie 2MR
Tuuk 2MR
Toll 2Fr
VanAllsburg 4MR

They do have solid swimmers all around for their relays, and (theoretically) i think each of their relays has potential to win, but the big question is will they be able to put it all together when it matters most.

Even if these sprinters olivet is bringing are pretty good, they might have a lot of pressure on them to finish strong, especially when having to anchor the relays at MIAA. I think anyone has that capaibility to do so especially when it comes down to it, but would you rather have Powers anchor the relays, knowing that he can swim a great 100 free anchor (as he showed this past league meet) and has some room for improvement? or would you rather take your chances and use one of the new upcoming freshman?

I think assuming swimmers will always improve as they have is a bit off, but entirely possible. Stubbs has done a great job, no doubt about it, but that was taking mediocre swimmers and making them good, now it is good swimmers becoming very good… much different. I also think the team has improved in depth, but without a stud on the relay, it may be more difficult to do well.

For K, i don’t think Hennigar will sit the 800 FR. I believe he will sit one of the medleys.

I will make my guess that Olivet will not break 7 in the 800 FR, just what i think. They have already broken through and proven they can step up though, winning the 200 medley over Hope last year.