So why hasn’t anyone scored out the psyche sheet?

Forums General National Championships So why hasn’t anyone scored out the psyche sheet?

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    • #12400

      Because I don’t want to take the time to do it and nobody else has the rocks. Yes, that’s a challenge!

    • #36000
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Went through extremely quickly, may have left out some teams that will place high, but here’s what I have:

      1 – Denison 348
      2 – Kenyon 317
      3 – Emory 275
      4 – Gustavus 267
      5 – Williams 226
      t6 – Hopkins 204
      t6 – St. Olaf also 204
      8 – W&L 197
      9 – Grove City 154
      10 – Middlebury 120.5
      11 – Kalamazoo 116

      Again, I may have left out one or more teams with the potential to move past somebody in this group; if so I apologize.

      47% of Kenyon’s points come on the third day. This should be a lot of fun to watch.

    • #36001
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Went through extremely quickly, may have left out some teams that will place high, but here’s what I have:

      1 – Denison 348
      2 – Kenyon 317
      3 – Emory 275
      4 – Gustavus 267
      5 – Williams 226
      t6 – Hopkins 204
      t6 – St. Olaf also 204
      8 – W&L 197
      9 – Grove City 154
      10 – Middlebury 120.5
      11 – Kalamazoo 116

      Again, I may have left out one or more teams with the potential to move past somebody in this group; if so I apologize.

      47% of Kenyon’s points come on the third day. This should be a lot of fun to watch.

      1. It is pretty amazing to me that Denison can score more points with 7 guys than Kenyon can with 18, even if it is only the psyche sheet.
      2. Denison will not beat Kenyon – when you’re scoring that many points with seven guys they have to be ranked pretty high – they won’t all hold those spots and Kenyon will move up. Kenyon also won’t be the only ones knocking down the big red, so that only helps Kenyon’s cause
      3. When do divers get added? I have no idea how they would finish, but how many of those top 10 teams will have a diver or two at the meet?

    • #36002
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      3. When do divers get added?

      @Psych Sheet wrote:

      This is the OFFICIAL PSYCHE SHEET – Divers will be added Friday by noon ET.

      OK, so if I had read I wouldn’t look like such a moron.

    • #36003
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      2. Denison will not beat Kenyon – when you’re scoring that many points with seven guys they have to be ranked pretty high – they won’t all hold those spots and Kenyon will move up. Kenyon also won’t be the only ones knocking down the big red, so that only helps Kenyon’s cause

      Whether they do or they don’t, it’s clear that it is possible, provided that Denison swims absolutely perfectly for 6 sessions and that Kenyon doesn’t move up too much. To me it looks eerily similar to last year’s D1 meet, where Arizona almost took down Auburn with about 1/2 the roster (480.5 to 440.5). In that meet, diving was the difference, as Steven Segerlin scored 52 points in the 3 events.

    • #36004
      sbjackson
      Member

      My quick run through of “scoring” the psyche sheet yields the same order, but different scores

      1. Denison 348
      2. Kenyon 331
      3. Emory 304

      Maybe I’ll find my errors this weekend.

      At any rate, I expect Emory to score much better on their relays than their seed positions, so all three are very close going in.

    • #36005
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Whether they do or they don’t, it’s clear that it is possible, provided that Denison swims absolutely perfectly for 6 sessions and that Kenyon doesn’t move up too much. To me it looks eerily similar to last year’s D1 meet, where Arizona almost took down Auburn with about 1/2 the roster (480.5 to 440.5). In that meet, diving was the difference, as Steven Segerlin scored 52 points in the 3 events.

      Absolutely. I should have been more clear – it is my opinion that Kenyon will win for the reasons that I stated. It is possible the they will lose, but I don’t believe it will happen – they are Kenyon after all.

      I think one other thing you can take from those scores – while Denison and Emory are both great, it’s all of the other teams that have imprved that are making this possible. There are so many teams bringing quality swimmers that everyone is impacting the outcome. I would think 22 schools with relays supports that. While I fully expect Kenyon to do well in the relays, there is no guarantee they will. They can’t fool around putting their B relay in for prelims anymore – they could get knocked out of finals. That would be devastating if it happened more than once this year and could spell the end of their run.

    • #36006
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I agree with the sentiment, Kenyon has a lot more room to score more points. Denison probably needs a relay DQ to pull this out.

      Here are some other things that could swing the meet Denison’s way:

      1) The 200 Free Relay is tempermental. A consol swim for the Lords would be a big point set-back.
      2) 500 Free Peterson/Curtis both palce top 4 and Bubb scores a few points
      3) 50 Free: Byers won’t win it, but top 3 is possible. I personally think he’ll be around 20.5
      4) 400 IM: I expect Kenyon to score 3 maybe 4 in this event including 2 in the top heat. The only thing Denison can counter with is a Peterson win.
      5) 100 breast: This is where Kenyon will most exceed the psyche sheet scoring. By how much? This depends on Zarins.
      6) 100 back: Denison has guys seeded 17th and 18th. Thye need both to score
      7) 1650: This will be the pivotal event. The meet will be very close at this point, and Kenyon will have 2 guys swimming in the middle of the pool (lanes 3,4) while Peterson will be down in lane 1. You know how in the mile you get races with-in the race? Well Dunn is going to run away with this, but then down in lanes 1 and 2 you have Peteson and Spinelli. I can see them seperating themselves and battling for 2nd. In the morning Bubb will also be swimming in lane 1 with 2 Kenyon guys in the pool. Interesting…
      8) 100 Free: Denison needs 2 guys in the top heat. If they can do that, they just might be winning after the event. It probably won’t matter though because the last 2 events will be dry for Denison.

    • #36007
      sbjackson
      Member

      I was wrong. New calc:

      1. Denison 348
      2. Kenyon 317
      3. Emory 277

    • #36008

      the 1650 is definitely going to be many races in one head. dunn flying solo, where the right side will be 3 emory swimmers along with freshmen sklyar davis. the left side will have spinelli, peterson and freshmen borland. I can see spinelli coming form behind to out touch peterson (spinelli does that too frequently). but whats even more more proof of kenyons dominance is nortthcutt and rantz sitting in 11/12 respectively (could sneak in the top 8) and schneider seated 22nd, definitely within distance for a few points.

      but, how will kenyon score big in the 4im? they have no one in the top 8, only 3 in the top 6 and you still think they are going to score 2 in the top 8?

    • #36009
      facenorth
      Member

      Dunn was under 4:00 last year. That should final him. I’d be surprised if they don’t score 4.

    • #36010

      i will be wicked surprised.

    • #36011
      silentp
      Member

      I’d be surprised if 4 make top 16 also, i think 5 will make it back.

    • #36012
      swim5599
      Member

      Dunn was under 4:00 last year in the IM

    • #36013
      The Treat
      Member

      Dunn was under 4:00 last year in the IM

    • #36014
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Eric Dunn from Kenyon, winner of the mile, was also 4:00 last year

    • #36015

      I understand that Dunn made history last year by swimming a 4-minute mile.

    • #36016
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @2006 NCAA results wrote:

      9 Dunn, Eric FR Kenyon 4:03.09 3:59.41 9

    • #36017
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Revised scored psych sheet:

      1 – Denison 348
      2 – Kenyon 317
      3 – Emory 276
      4 – Gustavus 267
      5 – Williams 226
      t6 – Hopkins 204
      t6 – St. Olaf also 204
      8 – W&L 197
      9 – Grove City 154
      10 – Middlebury 120.5
      11 – Kalamazoo 116
      12 – Santa Cruz 109
      13 – Jersey 78
      t14 – Coast Guard 76
      t14 – MIT also 76
      16 – Hope 71
      17 – NYU 70
      18 – Wash U 52
      19 – Merchant Marine 51
      20 – Carthage 48
      21 – LaCrosse 46
      22 – Steven’s Point 45
      23 – Carleton 35
      t24 – Westminster 34
      t24 – Redlands also 34
      25 – DePauw 31
      t26 – Wheaton (MA) 30
      t26 – WPI also 30
      28 – Amherst 24
      29 – Case 18
      30 – Union 14
      t31 – Albion 13
      t31 – Colby also 13
      t33 – Linfield 11
      t33 – Olivet also 11
      t33 Mary Wash also 11
      36 – Whittier 10
      37 – Hamilton 7
      t38 Conn. College 6
      t38 Luther also 6
      40 – Wheaton (IL) 5
      41 – Wesleyan 3
      t42 – Alfred 2
      t42 – Geneseo also 2
      t43 – Occidental 1
      t43 – Tufts also 1

    • #36018
      oldswimnfool
      Member

      Chris – very nice job!!!

      Out of the top 3 which teams do you see moving up and moving down. It would be interested to predict the top 25 teams…… and see how many you got right….

    • #36019
      gccswimmer16
      Member

      I didn’t see CMU in your rankings, unless I missed it. Did you forget about them? Will that alter the points at all?

    • #36020
      RadAGator
      Member

      I scored the diving based on the top scores posted thus far for 11 dives, including a few scores I looked up not listed on ncaasports.com.

    • #36021
      RadAGator
      Member

      Which makes the team scores:

      1 – Denison 348
      2 – Kenyon 317
      3 – Emory 276
      4 – Gustavus 267
      5 – Williams 226
      6 – St. Olaf also 224
      7 – Hopkins 204

      8 – W&L 197
      9 – Grove City 154
      10 – Middlebury 134.5
      11 – Kalamazoo 116
      12 – Santa Cruz 109
      13 – Jersey 78
      t14 – Coast Guard 76
      t14 – MIT also 76
      16 – Hope 71
      17 – NYU 70
      18 – Occidental 60
      19 – Wash U 52
      20 – Merchant Marine 51
      21 – Carthage 48
      22 – LaCrosse 46
      23 – Steven’s Point 45
      24 – Rowan 44
      25 – SUNY Oswego 37
      26 – RIT 37
      27 – Carleton 35
      t28 – Westminster 34
      t28 – Redlands also 34
      30 – DePauw 31
      t31 – Wheaton (MA) 30
      t31 – WPI also 30
      32 – Amherst 28
      33 – UW Oshkosh 26
      34 – CMS 21
      35 – Trinity (TX) 19
      36 – Case 18
      37 – Union 14
      t38 – Albion 13
      t38 – Colby also 13
      40 – Olivet 12
      t41 – Linfield 11
      t41 – Mary Wash also 11
      t41 – NY Cortland also 11
      44 – Whittier 10
      45 – SUNY Fredonia 8
      46 – Hamilton 7
      t47 Conn. College 6
      t47 Luther also 6
      t49 – Wheaton (IL) 5
      t49 – also TCNJ 5
      50 – RPI 4
      51 – Wesleyan 3
      t52 – Alfred 2
      t52 – Geneseo also 2
      54 – Tufts 1

    • #36022
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @gccswimmer16 wrote:

      I didn’t see CMU in your rankings, unless I missed it. Did you forget about them? Will that alter the points at all?

      I started by adding all the teams with relays, and then the rest. I guess I assumed that I’d already added CMU. I’ll add them in later today. It will alter the standings a bit.

      @oldswimnfool wrote:

      Out of the top 3 which teams do you see moving up and moving down. It would be interested to predict the top 25 teams…… and see how many you got right….

      Kenyon and Emory will definitely move up, and I see no reason why Denison HAS to move down. Their goal of winning with 9 guys is far from impossible, but certainly difficult. I also think my alma mater will turn some heads.

    • #36023
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Okay, CMU’s 800 relay is now 13th and their 400 is 16th. With Krzeminski’s points, they have 44, which is t24. Hope, GCC, TCNJ, Westminster & Wash U each dropped a spot in one of those relays and therefore lost 2 points each.

      1 – Denison 348
      2 – Kenyon 317
      3 – Emory 276
      4 – Gustavus 267
      5 – Williams 226
      6 – St. Olaf 224
      7 – Hopkins 204
      8 – W&L 197
      9 – Grove City 152
      10 – Middlebury 134.5
      11 – Kalamazoo 116
      12 – Santa Cruz 109
      t13 – Jersey 76
      t13 – Coast Guard also 76
      t13 – MIT also 76
      16 – NYU 70
      17 – Hope 69
      18 – Occidental 60
      19 – Merchant Marine 51
      20 – Wash U 50
      21 – Carthage 48
      22 – LaCrosse 46
      23 – Steven’s Point 45
      t24 – CMU 44
      t24 – Rowan also 44
      26 – SUNY Oswego 37
      27 – RIT 37
      28 – Carleton 35
      29 – Redlands also 34
      30 – Westminster 32
      31 – DePauw 31
      t32 – Wheaton (MA) 30
      t32 – WPI also 30
      34 – Amherst 28
      35 – UW Oshkosh 26
      36 – CMS 21
      37 – Trinity (TX) 19
      38 – Case 18
      39 – Union 14
      t40 – Albion 13
      t40 – Colby also 13
      42 – Olivet 12
      t43 – Linfield 11
      t43 – Mary Wash also 11
      t43 – NY Cortland also 11
      46 – Whittier 10
      47 – SUNY Fredonia 8
      48 – Hamilton 7
      t49 Conn. College 6
      t49 Luther also 6
      t51 – Wheaton (IL) 5
      t51 – also TCNJ 5
      53 – RPI 4
      54 – Wesleyan 3
      t55 – Alfred 2
      t55 – Geneseo also 2
      57 – Tufts 1

    • #36024

      I’m a little confused. Is there a more recent men’s psyche sheet out which shows that CMU qualified a relay (presumably the 800)? Can someone get a link to that p.s. if it is out there?

    • #36025
      Chris Knight
      Member

      N Dynamite reported that CMU & USCGA got their relays in (https://d3swimming.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3014), so I went with that assumption and plugged in CMU’s times (Coast Guard was already entered in every relay so they didn’t move in terms of medley seed).

      I have not seen a revised psych sheet with CMU’s relays on it, so it is just conjecture on my part. If they didn’t get their relays in they (Krzeminski flying solo) have 34 (t29).

    • #36026
      stokes
      Member

      How about ranking teams by improvement over seed? Funny that these scores almost equal the sizes of the smiles on coaches faces (except Gustavus and Denison).

      Teams are ranked by points improved / dropped (based on what Chris Knight scored) with ties going to the team with more points and teams getting shut out dropping to the bottom. Anyone look at % improvement? This meet seemed amazing.

      1 – Kenyon 317 570 +253
      2 – Williams 226 305 + 79
      3 – Steven’s Point 45 102 +57
      4 – Emory 276 318 +42
      5 – MIT 76 108 +32
      7 – Westminster 34 57.5 +23.5
      8 – Carthage 48 61 +13
      9 – Wash U 52 63 +11
      10 – Conn. College 6 11 +5
      11 – Tufts 1 5 +4
      12 – Denison 348 351 +3
      13 – NYU 70 72 +2
      14 – Whittier 10 12 +2
      15 – Wabash 6 8 +2
      16 – Wesleyan 3 5 +2
      17 – Santa Cruz 109 110 +1
      18 – Colby 13 14 +1
      19 – Luther 6 7 +1
      20 – Alfred 2 3 +1
      21 – Hamline 0 1 +1
      22 – Wheaton (MA) 30 30 +0
      26 – WPI 30 27.5 -2.5
      23 – Albion 13 9 -4
      24 – Linfield 11 7 -4
      25 – Mary Wash 11 5 -6
      26 – Hamilton 7 1 -6
      27 – Olivet 11 1 -10
      28 – Jersey 78 67 -11
      29 – Merchant Marine 51 40 -11
      30 – Union 14 3 -11
      31 – Case 18 5 -13
      32 – Hope 71 53 -18
      33 – DePauw 31 12 -19
      34 – Amherst 24 2 -22
      35 – Redlands 34 7 -27
      36 – Hopkins 204 175 -29
      37 – Grove City 154 118 -36
      38 – Middlebury 120.5 79 -41.5
      39 – Gustavus 267 225 -42
      40 – St. Olaf also 204 161 -43
      41 – Kalamazoo 116 66.5 -49.5
      42 – W&L 197 145 -52
      43 – Coast Guard 76 16 -60
      44 – Geneseo 2 0 -2
      45 – Wheaton (IL) 5 0 -5

    • #36027
      openwater
      Member

      The previous post lists only 45 teams while the referred to Chris Knight post had scores for 57 teams – what happened to the other 12 (Carleton for example was a plus 1)?

    • #36028
      nescacdad
      Member

      Impressive number of Kenyon swimmers who were seeded slower than 16th who ultimately swam in the championship finals. Williams had Norman Scott take 100 fly title despite being seeded 18th. Williams also had 3 of 5 relays break NESCAC records. Two of those records were on the books since 1999.

    • #36029

      @stokes wrote:

      Funny that these scores almost equal the sizes of the smiles on coaches faces (except Gustavus and Denison).

      Other than DQing the 200 MR, I would think Gustavus assistant to the head coach Andy Hagen and head coach Jon Carlson are pretty pumped about finishing 5th (highest ever finish for GAC I believe). Plus they posted a 3:00.98 400 FR (4th fastest ever I think, even if it did take 3rd at the meet), and Stewart finished 2nd in the 200 Free (highest ever individual placement from a GAC swimmer).

      With all of their swimmers fully tapering for conference, GAC had little room to move up. So to hold on and get 5th is totally bucket.

    • #36030

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      So to hold on and get 5th is totally bucket.

      I am interested in your usage of “bucket.” Is this some new slang I don’t know about?

      I find it really suprising that their best individual placement was this year in the 200. For some reason I thought Hagemeyer had placed at least that high in one of his events but I guess not.

    • #36031
      caveman12
      Member

      Will Sutor placed 2nd in the 100 fly in 2005, second to Duda

    • #36032
      justice
      Member

      re: Chapel Partner said: [Gustavus] posted a 3:00.98 400 FR–4th fastest ever I think, even if it did take 3rd at the meet.

      In fact, Kenyon has had seven 400 free relays dip down under the magical 3:00 barrier, the first in 1986. The 2007 Denison edition is the first non-Lords quartet to do it. UCSD posted a 3:00.58 in 1990, finishing second to a Jon Howell-led Lords relay that dropped a 2:58.87–the record until it was broken by Gardner/Baron/Thoms/Heis with a stunning 2:57.61 in 1998.

      Parenthetically, I agree with the consensus opinion: Geissinger’s 43.55 anchor leg was the swim of the meet, particularly for the manner in which he hauled in the Kenyon anchor before him.

      On a related note, the fastest all-time DIII 100 FR split, I believe, was Courtney-Brook’s 42.99 in the last swim of his career in St. Louis, while Born split a 43.13 in 1986. Finally, it’s amusing to contemplate that the latter was around the same time that Geissinger was BORN, if you pardon the miserable pun…

    • #36033

      Well I stand corrected on all accounts. Next thing is someone will tell me I was wrong and Gustavus finishing 5th is totally not bucket.

      Why don’t they list the other Kenyon times on the top 10 list for this site? I know it is still Kenyon’s relay, but the guys who swam on it are different. Is the Stanford coach in charge of the D3swimming top 10?

    • #36034
      Mr. Obvious
      Member

      Is the Stanford coach in charge of the D3swimming top 10?

      I think he was totally wearing a bucket.

    • #36035
      The Treat
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Why don’t they list the other Kenyon times on the top 10 list for this site? I know it is still Kenyon’s relay, but the guys who swam on it are different. Is the Stanford coach in charge of the D3swimming top 10?

      1. it’s harder to keep track of. we dont have the full results of every kenyon midseason meet and national meet since 1975 (or any team for that matter). what we do have for every team out there is their team records.
      2. it’s cool for other teams relays to be put in the top 10. how interesting would the list be if it were 1-10 kenyon (it’d be pretty close to that for most of the relays)? might as well put it on kenyon’s swimming site. i want to be able to come here and at a quick glance to able to tell how many other schools have gone faster than time X. everyone knows kenyon has gone faster than everyone else for the past 72 years. they remind us at nationals every year with their banner and their splashing/counting thing at the end of the meet (note: im not saying they shouldnt do any of that b/c they’ve certainly earned it.)
      3. b/c kenyon doesnt need any more recognition. every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring (or multiple) plus 4 national championship trophies that they were a part of. a place on the top 10 list on a website is very low on their list of things they want.

    • #36036
      justice
      Member
      The Treat wrote:
      every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring.

      This is DIII swimming, not the NBA. Unless times have changed–I graduated with Born’s class of ’86–there are no rings.

    • #36037
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring

      Metaphorically speaking

    • #36038

      @justice wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring.

      This is DIII swimming, not the NBA. Unless times have changed–I graduated with Born’s class of ’86–there are no rings.

      Wait… you didn’t get a ring?

    • #36039
      swim826
      Member

      @RhymeAndReason wrote:

      @justice wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring.

      This is DIII swimming, not the NBA. Unless times have changed–I graduated with Born’s class of ’86–there are no rings.

      Wait… you didn’t get a ring?

      the rings only go to the swimmers on the team who qualified for and competed at ncaa’s.

    • #36040
      swimkin
      Member

      They don’t give out rings….at least at D3 they don’t. Instead you get NCAA watches for being part of a winning National team. NCAA’s doesn’t give out rings to qualifiers… but your school (or even your parents) may have bought them for your team’s National qualifiers.

    • #36041
      The Treat
      Member

      @swim826 wrote:

      @RhymeAndReason wrote:

      @justice wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      every kenyon swimmer ever has a national championship ring.

      This is DIII swimming, not the NBA. Unless times have changed–I graduated with Born’s class of ’86–there are no rings.

      Wait… you didn’t get a ring?

      the rings only go to the swimmers on the team who qualified for and competed at ncaa’s.

      the people who didnt qualify for nats wouldnt be on the top 10 anyway.

      NCAA doesnt give out rings but i thought the school usually did. maybe b/c kenyon wins so damn much they dont give one out. if they dont, sucks for them!

      this only pertains to relays and even if they didnt get a ring, they certainly got a trophy if they won, which considering kenyon’s relay dominance they probably did.

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