Olympic Trials

I would think Ted Marschall is getting closer and has a good shot in the 400 IM since he kicked off the season with a 4:05 at the Toyota Minnesota Grand Prix.

Good point on Skylar. I agree completey but don’t count out Whitaker. You can never underestimate a younger brother wanting to beat their older “more accomplished” brother.

Which, in looking at the results of the duel meet, is already happening!

Wi-D (thanks, Chapel) definitely has more sprint in him than his brother. With that in mind, I agree that Wi-D will most likely swim 2, 5, 1000 through his dual meet career, most likely doing 2, 5, mile at MIACs.

I don’t mean to beat a dead horse but my point about the perspective some of you have about the importance of conference is being shown on this thread. The question was regarding which swimmers have competed at the Olympic Trials and who has a chance. Once again, the conversation has turned to who will swim what at conference.

I’m thinking only Westby and Marschall right now have legit shots…

“don’t mean to beat a dead horse but my point about the perspective some of you have about the importance of conference is being shown on this thread. The question was regarding which swimmers have competed at the Olympic Trials and who has a chance. Once again, the conversation has turned to who will swim what at conference.”

You sound like someone who swam on a club “team” instead of HS.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Once again, the conversation has turned to who will swim what at conference.

That’s because, at least from my perspective, Conference is the most important meet of the season for athletes in D3, in the MIAC. Yeah, the Davis’ and Stewart and Co. will go to NCAAs and make some ripples, but at MIACs they will be a tsunami. At the D3, MIAC level, it’s not about making a show at Nationals, yet. The MIAC is definitely one of the up and coming and premier conferences in the nation right now, but it is my opinion that we are not yet to a level where we can blow off our Conference meet. If I were in Carlson’s position, I would do everything under the sun and in my power to prepare my athletes for the Conference meet, then pick up the pieces, retrain, and try to do it again at NCAAs.

@Monti wrote:

I’m thinking only Westby and Marschall right now have legit shots…

Ooooohhh! The first Stewart devil’s advocate. What makes you think that he can’t perform at this level? Maybe not with D3 training, but what if he were to take a year off and follow in the footsteps of Courage? Surely with Olympic caliber training he would have a pretty decent shot of making Trials.

@Mac of the MIAC wrote:

I’ve heard that you need to post the cut time in LCM. If this is true, will Westby, Marschall, and Stewart swim a LCM meet right after nationals? If I were any of these swimmers, I’d probably take a shot.

If they are at all close and wish to swim trials, then that would be a pretty easy decision I think….

@Rustie Gustie wrote:

@Monti wrote:

I’m thinking only Westby and Marschall right now have legit shots…

Ooooohhh! The first Stewart devil’s advocate. What makes you think that he can’t perform at this level? Maybe not with D3 training, but what if he were to take a year off and follow in the footsteps of Courage? Surely with Olympic caliber training he would have a pretty decent shot of making Trials.

simply going off of current times from this season and wathcing Westby, Marschall and Stewart swim this summer in LCM, Westby looks the most qualified to make cuts and Marschall is not that far off in the 400 IM. Stewart could make it, but as Mac questioned, I believe they have to qualify in LCM.

@Monti wrote:

… I believe they have to qualify in LCM.

That they do. But with Stewart’s stroke (honestly, have you seen the kid swim, it’s freakin’ ridiculous) one would have to think he’d take fewer walls in stride, possibly even swim faster.

Rustie-

You speak as if this is some YMCA League in which kids splash around a bit and it’s all about having fun. I can guarantee you that Jon Carlson would NEVER taper a kid for conference if it jeopardized his chances at Nationals. He’d be a fool if he thought otherwise. If the MIAC is to be taken seriously on a National Level, that needs to be the focus. It seems Monti is the only one that has any sense on this issue. Nationals are not the “treat” after conference. Conference is the prelude to the real show. This is not elitist, it’s only fair to those kids who are talented enough, just like it’s only fair to taper the rest of the swimmers for the Conference meet and not an end-of-the-year dual meet.

Wonderboy is 100% correct on this.

This is kind of my point. The reason that everyone tapers at Conference is because they need to make Nationals. Now, if Stewart of Skylar could get cut times that would get them in on a drop taper and a shave at Conference I’d be the first one to call JC and tell him not to full taper them, but that’s not how it works. At Gustavus, you drop taper but don’t shave for Carthage in mid-December. The elites will get B-cuts here, some of which will get taken, most of which are borderline. This means that come February the elites and the relays at GAC still aren’t in to NCAAs for sure. Tapering everyone for Conference gets everyone to the same point: rested, shaved, and in a fast pool. With that combination JC maximizes the number of athletes he can send to NCAAs. If Stewart or Hanson or Skylar (and so on) don’t taper for Conference, their relays don’t make; plain and simple. Now that he’s got as many athletes as he can with cut times after Conference, he’s ready to make waves at NCAAs.

Ask the swimmers which meet is higher intensity, more fun, and more competitive. I bet you’ll be surprised at the answer (and I’d like to know to). Nationals is great competition since you’re swimming against the best of the best, but you’re usually far from home, with next to no fan base, in a strange pool where, if you’re Gustavus, you know you can’t crack top 5.

Ask the swimmers which meat is higher intensity

I would say beef is the higher intensity meat. Pork is a close second.

But seriously, I never had a hard time getting hyped for nationals. Regardless of the fan factor, swimming in the biggest meet D3 had to offer, was never dull. If you can’t get up for nationals, you shouldn’t swim there. Being far away from home was never a factor. In fact, that made it more exciting, and more fun.

@E-man’s Revenge wrote:

I would say beef is the higher intensity meat. Pork is a close second.

You got me. Quite clever, E-man. I see chicken didn’t make your list; as well as fish. Guess you’re a red meat kind of guy.

Quite clever, E-man. I see chicken didn’t make your list; as well as fish. Guess you’re a red meat kind of guy.

Quite clever indeed. Chicken and fish were a close 3rd and 4th on my list. But for the sake of brevity, I left them off. I am a red meat kind of guy, but Mac is a stage 4 vegan. So, he has that going, which is nice. I hope that you understood, by pork, I really meant bacon.

Oh, and by the way, I drink a Snickers Sport Shake before bed every night.

I know Nelson has ambitions to make the trials. I know he has spoken about it and I wouldn’t be surprised if Bob is working with him on it this year. He did train with the U of M swim team all summer (as did Jake Koch) and they’re both looking pretty quick early in the season. So personally, I wouldn’t be suprised if Bob is working Nelson for a solid conference meet but keeping the Trials in mind for him as well, especially since Bob attempted this years ago as well (I believe for the ’84 games).

With that said, I haven’t spoken to Nelson since the summer and I don’t know for sure if he still wants to go for it this year. I also don’t know what Ted and Stewart’s ambitions are. I don’t doubt that they have it in them to train hard and get a shot at the Trials meet, but does anyone have any insight into whether or not they’re actually gonna go for it?

and sce you lobbed it up for me slow pitch softball style, I gotta let you know that Pork IS #1. Always and forever. Other white meat my ass.

I think the goal here is to make trials, not to actually swim in the Olympics.

And making trials really is not affected by whether they taper for conference or nats. They can time trial whenever they are at their fastest, correct?

I think being able to just say “I swam at Olympic trials” is cool. but their is no chance any of these guys are making the Olympics.

If it came down to it, I’d probably rather swim my fastest at D-III nats over swimming fast at the actual trial. Winning a D-III title (and making trials the next day or something in a time trial), far outweighs the difference of placing 29th and 21st at Olympic trials.

Then again, I’ve never been close to either.

I totally disagree about wanting to win a D3 National Title vs. swimming at your best at the olympic trials. You win a D3 Title and it’s equivalent in scale to winning the nine-man football title playing for some iron-range school as opposed to winning the AAAAA Championship playing for Eden Prairie. That’s the difference between D3 Nationals and the Olympic Trials. Well, maybe not that big of a difference but you get the point. I would put my thoughts here about Jon Fox but I don’t want to be edited. Let’s just say that he’s his biggest fan and I’m not sure there are many others.

Chapel: I think you might agree with me. I think Nelson Westby can go America all over their asses.

15 years from now, what do you think Westby will be telling some age-group swimmers:

“Hey, I took 32nd place at Olympic trials.”

or

“Hey, I won D-3 nationals 3 times*, and competed in Olympic trials.”

*assuming he wins 2 more titles.

Can anyone tell me what place Bob Hauck was at Olympic trials? Does he even remember? But I bet nearly everyone on this forum can tell you he was a national champ and D-3 record holder. You could probably same the same for Marie Marsman and Matt Zelen. Can anyone tell me what place they were at Olympic Trials?

Point is, as long as you make trials, for guys at Westby’s or Marschall’s level, what does it matter what place you get? Sure you want to do well, but who really cares if that doesn’t win you a trip to China?

@Chapel Partner wrote:

Can anyone tell me what place Bob Hauck was at Olympic trials? Does he even remember? But I bet nearly everyone on this forum can tell you he was a national champ and D-3 record holder. You could probably same the same for Marie Marsman and Matt Zelen. Can anyone tell me what place they were at Olympic Trials?

Hauck, 1988, 29th in the 100 back, 23rd 200 back

Zelen, 2000, tie for 48th in the 50

Masman, 2004, 41st in the 50, 27th in the 100

The biggest meet I ever swam at was the US Open and I wasn’t tapered as it was a mid-season meet. I don’t tell people where I placed (I think 17th) but who I swam with. I swam against Tom Dolan and Erik Namesnik. At D3 Nationals, I swam against Derya Buyukuncku and Jon Flowers. Which names do you think people remember? Granted, I didn’t win D3 Nationals like Westby but the level of competition was much lower. Let’s be honest, Westby is a D1 swimmer competing at the D3 level.

And, I think Zelen is most famous for losing his suit and ending up on the Tonight Show next to Yasmine Bleeth.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Let’s be honest, Westby is a D1 swimmer competing at the D3 level.

I am being honest here, and while I think Westby is an amazing swimmer, saying he’s a D1 swimmer is pretty broad. There are a lot of D1 teams that would get beat by D3 teams, and do (look at Kenyon). If we are talking D1 as in thinking about Nationals, Westby has 0 D1 B cuts. He would be an above average/very good mid-major D1 swimmer, but he wouldn’t be the best out there for that even. He’s not even the best D3 swimmer out there, so I am not sure what that statement really means.

Hey, should I be more proud of winning the 50 free at the SEMS ABC Open or placing 11th in the 50 free at D3 Nationals? I placed higher at the SEMS ABC Open so I suppose that’s more important.

Westby’s also a Sophomore, not a senior. He won Nationals as a Freshman. If he’s that good then he can compete at the D1 Level. And not Davidson College. Regardless of whether there are D3 teams that can beat D1 teams or not, D1 Nationals is still the same. Which D1 school is irrelevant. He doesn’t have D1 Cuts yet but he’s only finished his FRESHMAN year.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Westby’s also a Sophomore, not a senior. He won Nationals as a Freshman. If he’s that good then he can compete at the D1 Level. And not Davidson College. Regardless of whether there are D3 teams that can beat D1 teams or not, D1 Nationals is still the same. Which D1 school is irrelevant. He doesn’t have D1 Cuts yet but he’s only finished his FRESHMAN year.

Please realize your major error and edit. Thanks.

Junior, sorry. The point remains the same.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Hey, should I be more proud of winning the 50 free at the SEMS ABC Open or placing 11th in the 50 free at D3 Nationals? I placed higher at the SEMS ABC Open so I suppose that’s more important.

What is the SEMS ABC Open? I think most people are familiar with the NCAA, and even what D-3 is for that matter.

SEMS ABC sounds like a spelling contest.

Chapel, it’s just your run-of-the-mill USS Meet that anyone registered with USA Swimming can enter. It was a proud moment, amongst the million other wins at meets with substandard competition. Sarcasm, and how.

@silentp wrote:

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Let’s be honest, Westby is a D1 swimmer competing at the D3 level.

I am being honest here, and while I think Westby is an amazing swimmer, saying he’s a D1 swimmer is pretty broad. There are a lot of D1 teams that would get beat by D3 teams, and do (look at Kenyon). If we are talking D1 as in thinking about Nationals, Westby has 0 D1 B cuts. He would be an above average/very good mid-major D1 swimmer, but he wouldn’t be the best out there for that even. He’s not even the best D3 swimmer out there, so I am not sure what that statement really means.

Silent P is correct. Westby if fast and maybe in a DI enviroment he maybe even faster, but, if I am correct because I did Zero research on this, he would not score at Big Tens in teh 200 IM. No sure about the breast or fly, but he I don’t think he would score in those either.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Hey, should I be more proud of winning the 50 free at the SEMS ABC Open or placing 11th in the 50 free at D3 Nationals? I placed higher at the SEMS ABC Open so I suppose that’s more important.

i find this very very funny. well said wonderboy.

Last year, Westby went almost as fast at the midseason meet as he did at NCAAs, so why doesn’t he skip the Carthage meet, swim at the US open (or some other large, LCM meet) and try for his Trials cuts there? I don’t understand why he can’t do both, D3 champ and Olympic Trial swimmer with a full spring/summer base to taper from.

That is an option, given a couple of things…

1. Is he experienced enough to jump into a LCM Meet and compete well having trained SCY since the beginning of the season? I’m not sure how much experience he’s had with LCM or if he’s any good with this distance. It’s a completely different ball-game than SCY.

2. Is Jon willing to train and taper him for a meet in December, given that he probably won’t make cuts unless he’s tapered? A meet in December is a good option for tapering because of the fact that there is plenty more training time left in the season.

3. Does he care to do this? I guess this would be the biggest and most important question.

Who knows what JON would do with him? Jon is not his coach

I think that wonderboy took what silentp said and applied to it to Stewart, as that is obviously who he is more familiar with out of the two.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

That is an option, given a couple of things…

1. Is he experienced enough to jump into a LCM Meet and compete well having trained SCY since the beginning of the season? I’m not sure how much experience he’s had with LCM or if he’s any good with this distance. It’s a completely different ball-game than SCY.

2. Is Jon willing to train and taper him for a meet in December, given that he probably won’t make cuts unless he’s tapered? A meet in December is a good option for tapering because of the fact that there is plenty more training time left in the season.

3. Does he care to do this? I guess this would be the biggest and most important question.

First, I think you might be in love with Jon as you probably mean Hauck?

2nd he could swim the US open (when is that?) to get the cuts. training long course is not essential to swimming well long coure (Mike Bowerman rarely trained long course), but I do think you need to race a couple of times before your big meet.

When are trials? If they are a little later, he can continue his season after Nationals and shoot for a spring meet like the Twin Cities spring splash, which I believe is the first long course meet of the year in Minnesota (it is usually around May and at Univ of MN).

Interesting…I make a mistake based on the fact that I’ve been answering so many posts regarding Stewart and Jon Carlson and I’ve been accused of wanting to have Jon’s babies and told that I’m applying my thoughts to the wrong person. It’s a ____ point anyways (insert incorrect term) as the only thing the rubes can do is point out errors and not shut me down on the issues.

@wonderboy33 wrote:

Interesting…I make a mistake based on the fact that I’ve been answering so many posts regarding Stewart and Jon Carlson and I’ve been accused of wanting to have Jon’s babies and told that I’m applying my thoughts to the wrong person. It’s a ____ point anyways (insert incorrect term) as the only thing the rubes can do is point out errors and not shut me down on the issues.

I’ll take up an issue. What’s the difference if he waits until the end of the season to make the cut in an LCM meet? Will the Olaf pool be stretched to 50M in January and beyond? He will have exactly 0 more days to train LCM between January and March than he will between now and December, unless you know something no one else does. I am not sure where the local 50M indoor pools are, but his only option to train LCM for a long enough time to be effective (which you want to see) would be in the spring. This
1) would not mean he can’t taper for NCAAs
and
2) would mean he’d need to drop out of school or do some commuting

SilentP, I don’t believe I said there is an issue with him waiting until the end of the season, Did I? It is true that he won’t be getting anymore long course training from now until then, but, then again he will be tapering for a second time, fairly close to the first time. Also, I’m not sure what LCM Meet is out there before the Olympic Trials. Perhaps someone else could answer the question if there are any meets he could qualify at after Nationals. My point about jumping into competing without any long course training was made because I’m not sure how much long course experience he has as that can be a difficult thing to do. Yes, you can throw out Dave Barrowman’s name regarding long course training in a short course pool but that is the exception, not the rule.

Actually, knowing when trials is would be the most important issue.

The trials are June 29th – July 6th, so he would have plenty of time to train and taper again, given that he keeps training after the season is over. I’m not sure how it works at the big time swimming schools like Olaf but I remember at SJU, when the season was over, the training was over. But, then again, that’s when Pat Haws was the coach. He’s a hell of a motivator. I hate my mother!

Oh, and I meant Mike Barrowman, not Dave. I think my mind went to Dave Wharton, for those of you that remember that name.

St. Olaf trains LCM in their afternoon practices in florida. So for about 9 days, Nelson would be hitting up an outdoor LCM pool. Last year we trained next to Brendan Hanson in an evening practice. My claim to fame is that I tried to beat him in a 50 breast while he was cooling down and still failed.

I’m not saying this LCM training would really do all that much, and it’s more or less irrelevant but I thought I’d just throw it out there and see if it sends anyone of you back at anothers throat.