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    • #12811
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      Who are the newcomers that are going to make the biggest impacts at the conference meet?
      both men and women of course…

    • #40708
      franchise
      Member

      well definitely three south africans from limestone (Mackenzie, Jordens and Parsonage) probably in that order.. two of my croatians from limestone will as well (Karaman and Majlat)..
      Willers from Wingate..
      If it’s true that flyer from SCAD will be there in January he will possibly be the best swimmer in the conference..

      I don’t know much about girls but Speranda from limestone is my friend and I know that she can swim fast.. she is listed as a sophomore but didn’t compete last year.. her times so far are not a good indicator of her talent, I would have to think that she will be a factor once february roles around..

    • #40709
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Also Walpole from Catawba (48.2, 1:45, 4:47)

    • #40710
      Balki
      Member

      you guys missed SCAD big time.
      Nat Emmett and Dan Recordon (kid took care of Clemson). Verbitsky will be in Charlotte.
      Too bad they never swim well at BGMC otherwise Wingate would have to look out

    • #40711
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      yeah,

      a decent breaststroker eh? :59.8/2:13.8 v. Clemson and a 4:18 IM and that Recordon could be a decent sprinter

      the comment about sCAD not being up at BGMC is a bit overzealous, I don’t care who they bring in with McFlyer, they wouldn’t challenge wingit at that meet…they are still in the same situation, a big part of their point scorers will have cuts in Dec. and will only rest a couple days to gear up for the NCAA meet while scad is gearing up for NAIA’s correct?

    • #40712
      Chris Knight
      Member

      They have no reason to do well at the conference meet. They shouldn’t be qualified by then: They should all be qualified after their 1st meet. The NAIA times are a joke! 5:14 in the 500, for example. SCAD usually sends most of their team, if not everyone, to their nationals, so if they rested one minute for conference they’d be fools.

      But anybody who is supposed to go 47 in the 1 fly will be really fast, even unrested.

    • #40713
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      chris,

      no offense, but that comment leads me to believe that you have some misconseptions(sp?) about rest and how it fits into a training cycle….
      you don’t rest to recover from yesturdays workout, you rest today so that you can drop the hammer for several days to come.

      If you are going into the three/four day format meet you should in fact rest even if you have a shot at the national title. You will swim faster and your not going to loose base with a short rest….Its a good tune up for the final meet. Gives you a idea as to where you are and what you need to do. Not to mention the confidence gained as you swim fast times with minimal rest.

      It wouldn’t even hurt to shave…a lot of people are still stuck with the thought that you pound pound pound, then chill…that’s really not as affective as people think…

      this is obviously opinion, but it drives me crazy that swimmers are so damn convinced that you train, train, train, then nothing, drag suit all the way till finals, not shaving till night before, etc….it just doesn’t make any sense to me why people have to have this “safety net” or a reason for not doinig their best possible time till finals, but that part is mental I guess.

    • #40714
      Chris Knight
      Member

      You are naturally entitled to your opinion, and it may well be that I am wrong – I’m a law student, not a swim coach, after all.

      But over the years I’ve seen many swimmers go fastest at the end of the year when they’ve rested no more than a day and declined to shave for their conference meet (assuming they have cuts), then drop the hammer at Nationals. Conference meets should be about making cuts, and if you already have them then why not use it as training? Every program can do what it wants, but SCAD clearly does not come into the conference meet looking to swim AFAP, then they place top 3 at the NAIA. I’d say this approach is working for them.

    • #40715
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      chris,

      I respect that response…I agree that conference is training after all competition is the purest form of training.
      I too have seen those time drops at conference, and I’m not saying that you have to rest, I just believe based on my own experience as an athlete and coach that during that time of year more rest is implemented into your cycle’s with a higher ebb of training. So, it seems reasonable that some rest, like starting the monday before the meet, or even the Saturday before the meet would allow those athletes to do some kick butt times w/o even shaving etc.
      but my point was more geared to your statement that they shouldn’t rest a day…I totally dissagree with that. It just seemed so old school american train of thought.

      It just always baffles me when people want to get beat down so far that it takes them three weeks to come around, well no kidding you are going to have big a$$ drops!

      It just seems to be a bigger risk that is necessary to kick your butt and go say :22.8 all year because your dog, and them hope that you go :20 something…this event might be a bad example, but that is where I’m going. I’d much rather have an athlete or myself go :21 lows, or even break :20 once in the season have more confidence that I can go :20 low with some minor changes..

    • #40716
      Chris Knight
      Member

      I don’t know what the schedule is like this year, but last year there were only 11 days in between BGMC ending (Feb. 11) and NAIA nationals beginning (Feb. 28). If my team only has 11 days until nationals I am much less likely to give them rest for a conference meet where none of my team needs to make cuts…heck entries were probably already closed by the time they got to Charlotte.

    • #40717
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      chris,

      if that were the case I would most definetly give some rest for those going to NAIA champs or Div.II champs…It is one thing to give major lactate set that close to competition, but its another to do a full blown meet that close. You would risking a lot by not resting a few days going into that meet.

      You would obviously had to have started to taper yardage down, if the meet ended 11 days, as a typical taper(gradual reduction of yards 30-60% over a 12-21day period would put you there)
      I am not saying they do it right/wrong…I am just saying it would be worth resting for that meeting knowing that your body needs a little help just to get through the meet, nontheless having to race your big meet in 11 days after that conf. meet.

      I’d like to think of it like this…and I’m sure I am not the first person to put this in terms like this, just haven’t seen it….lets say that the objective is to go one mile on a bicycle and one guy has to cover a very large mountain, and the other(my guy) has to cover a mile as well however he has to deal with a gradual climb and gradual decent. Of course while your guy is going up that mountain at 5mph, I’m cruisin at 16-22mph…now when your guy gets to the decent part yeah he’s falling fast as hell at like 35-45mph but he sees me almost there and has no idea how long its really going to get there and he’s totally out of control….I might have less of a different from 16-22 to 22-25 but I am def. getting there faster and with more control…that is kind of how I feel some of my coaches, and some of my fella coaches and swimmers try to do a year and taper…those numbers are not ment to see if timewise they’d figure out, but that is my point in a nut shell.

      but….if you believe in what your coach is doing and do everything he/she gives it really doesn’t matter as you’ll be successful…but I do believe a better/safer game plan can make a difference.
      this is something that worked extremely well for myself and the other teammates that had cuts and had to swim prior to NCAA’s and it had nothing to do with, “well I should swim well for the team.” as the places were going to be the same either way, it was the right thing to do for fast swimming at that meet and for NCAA’s
      this is something that as a coach makes a lot more sense as well…

      matej was extremely good at swimming well during the hight of season, faster at conf., and even faster at nat’s(even though some of his teammates did not always follow suite)…he’s prob. the best example of it however, I have no idea what his training was like for the most part…

      he’d be someone I’d like to get an opinion from on this discussion as he was prob. one of the best swimmers from first meet to nat’s that I can think of….

    • #40718
      franchise
      Member

      Thanks H2,
      You know, I am not sure if I am the best example for the reason that I was different than many other swimmers, at least my body was..
      Looking back at my whole career I realized that what worked for most of my teammates never worked for me and vice versa..

      I always swam better in the events I didn’t train for and the ones I was focusing on I wouldn’t reach my goal.. Coaches used to tell me it was mental and it would be piss me off so much because I knew it wasn’t..

      It took me a long time to figure this out and it started to happen in my junior/senior year of college.. After Indianapolis 2006 (junior NCAA) I swam poorly 100 and 200 fly after focusing so much on it and improved my 200 back by 2 seconds without doing any of the backstroke sets..
      this is when I realized I couldn’t swim much of fly in practice for two reasons.. one, it was hurting my back but the more important reason is it would mess up my stroke and I would always swim slower in the end..

      I thought this was only a case in butterfly because it is the hardest stroke but I found out after Buffalo 2007 when I swam poorly backstroke and fairly good betterfly that I was the same for all of the strokes.. you know, I never exceeded 75 fly in practice and I had by far the fastest last 50 in 200 fly at NCAA (for me personally and anyone in that race)

      My whole career I was making the same mistake over and over again, I would swim good fly then I would practice fly and swim bad fly but good back and then I would practice back and swim bad back but good fly and it kept going like that.. What would I do if I had another season? swim mostly freestyle while fly and back only a little bit (a lot of drills though), pretty much the way I swam fly in the last season and backstroke in my junior year.. I am sure this is the formula for me but we will never know for sure..

      I think this goes in the favor of H2’s philosophy.. If I was SCAD’s coach I would never train them hard at the Conference meet, 11 days is not much and if you are doing lactate sets 6 sessions in a row.. wow.. you need some rest before and after the meet.. I would always take it easy on tuesday and wednesday and I always had thursday morning session off or just easy 400 medley relay split.. I never doubted this approach..

      But then again, SCAD seemed to drop a lot of times at NAIA. much more than I ever had so who I am to say it is not good?! I just have a different opinion.. there are many different ways to the top (that is to reach the best of your abilities)

      The only thing that in my opinion should be done is a long aerobic warm downs and warm ups but that’s not hard, that’s to improve the recovery, it adds a little bit of yardage but it certainly isn’t stressfull on your body..

    • #40719
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Given that they have less than 2 weeks until their nationals, it only makes sense that they should start their taper already. But I maintain that it would be crazy for them to fully rest and/or shave and then try to retaper for the NAIA meet. And it’s not uncommon to feel like crap at the start of one’s taper, so I still feel that there’s no reason why they should care about their results at the Bluegrass meet.

    • #40720
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      chris,
      no one would expect them to fully rest…that was never the issue, I just kinda went off on a tangent with your comments of NO rest….I see where your going with how sometimes you feel bad during taper, but that usually doesn’t happen till right in the middle, ya know?

      I think its an awkward situation if the meet is 11 days out of your NAIA champs or NCAA meet…from what I remember I thought we had three weeks from BGMC till NCAA’s..either way I do remember doing some actual training after the meet that was more specific and race ready stuff.

      I just felt that if I did PR’s or close to it at the BGMC with 3-5 days rest that when I’d go 14-10 at nat’s I’d be that much better. I was basically attacking the minds of some athletes that have been so ingrained with the philosophies of old school coaching that really isn’t as effective as it could be..don’t get me wrong, I have an “old school” mentality about training,etc. however, I feel that technology has changed and so should our mindsets.

      Matej,
      I have found that with breaststrokers/flyers a lot that when they train their stroke a lot that that the specific movement get’s broken down, so like you said I have changed my weekly training sessions. I have been doing 30min. per day to specific stroke(i.e. pace, drills, kicking, etc.) then main set’s as opposed to doing two or three whole practices just dedicated to that stroke..i feel that were generally more faster, but we’ll see at conference, and hopefully NCAA’s ๐Ÿ™‚
      I still wish you would have went into coaching, and I still hope that you one day do.
      I do find it strange that your backstroke swimming declined when you trained more specific to that stroke. That is one that is really fun to train because it seems like the more you do the better you get and there are so many things you can work on that will help. Just curious…

      sorry to keep going, but I don’t remember anything but your junior and senior years of times…same way with my career….as I coach I see much more consistant swimming during the season with smaller incremental drops their junior/senior years….do you think its the coach getting adjusted to the swimmer or the swimmer getting adjusted to the trainning, or physical maturity…(not directed just to matej, anyone that wants to chime in on that one is welcome!)

    • #40721
      wonderboy33
      Member

      In Chris’s defense, I don’t think he’s saying that they shouldn’t rest. He said that if they rested even 1 minute for conference, they would be fools. If there is no reason to taper for conference, they shouldn’t. If the goal is Nationals, then they should plan to rest for that meet, taking into account the amount of racing they will be getting at conference, and the number of days they plan to taper.

      If they taper for Nationals, they most likely will be a bit rested going into conference, given that there are only 11 days between conference and Nationals. Racing on a single taper is usually desirable to racing on a double taper. There are always kids that can go faster on a double taper but that’s not the norm.

      The point is that a coach won’t be “pounding” the training at this time of the year anyways. Whether they plan to taper for conference or Nationals, with 11 days between meets, rest will have to be involved. As for shaving, why use that at conference? If you can swim fast without shaving, it makes sense to save that for Nationals, given that you are assured of making it.

    • #40722
      Balki
      Member

      The point is that a coach won’t be “pounding” the training at this time of the year anyways.

      You were obviously never at BGMC meet

    • #40723
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Nope, I have never been. I don’t think that changes the point, unless the implication is that the coaches in this conference “pound” the kids more than other conferences or that they, in fact, follow the real old school style of coaching. That is to pound to the very end, have a “Hell Week”, and then rest like crazy.

    • #40724
      Balki
      Member

      Implication is that some coaches, one indirectly mentioned previously, do so……

    • #40725
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      wonderboy,

      isn’t that pretty much what “I” am saying? pretty sure….

      In Chris’s defense, I don’t think he’s saying that they shouldn’t rest. He said that if they rested even 1 minute for conference, they would be fools. If there is no reason to taper for conference, they shouldn’t

      what do you think, “if they rested even one min. for conf. they would be fools….” means?

      anyways, the main thing is that the coach has to do what is best for his/her team at the end of each day.

    • #40726
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @H2allpurpose wrote:

      chris,

      no offense, but that comment leads me to believe that you have some misconseptions(sp?) about rest and how it fits into a training cycle….
      you don’t rest to recover from yesturdays workout, you rest today so that you can drop the hammer for several days to come.

      If you are going into the three/four day format meet you should in fact rest even if you have a shot at the national title. You will swim faster and your not going to loose base with a short rest….Its a good tune up for the final meet. Gives you a idea as to where you are and what you need to do. Not to mention the confidence gained as you swim fast times with minimal rest.

      It wouldn’t even hurt to shave…a lot of people are still stuck with the thought that you pound pound pound, then chill…that’s really not as affective as people think…

      this is obviously opinion, but it drives me crazy that swimmers are so damn convinced that you train, train, train, then nothing, drag suit all the way till finals, not shaving till night before, etc….it just doesn’t make any sense to me why people have to have this “safety net” or a reason for not doinig their best possible time till finals, but that part is mental I guess.

      I couldn’t really tell what your ultimate point was as the comments above led me to believe that you were arguing with Chris about not resting for conference. You even advocate shaving for the conference meet. If the goal is the National meet, then you should specifically shave and taper for that meet. It’s a given that 11 days between meets means you will have some rest at conference in the process.

      On another note, I noticed that franchise is apparently saying that it is a bad idea to train for the events that you will be competing in at the end of the season. He mentions that his coaches used to tell him it was mental and he “knew” it wasn’t. Franchise, are you actually saying that the reason you didn’t do well in your events was because you trained for them?

      I suggest that your coaches were right. If you are competing in an event you haven’t trained for, the pressure is off. You don’t expect to do well because you haven’t trained for that event. However, the pressure is on when you’ve put work into an event and it comes down to the final swim of the season. If this is your theory, I suggest you disregard H2’s pleas to enter the coaching arena.

    • #40727
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @H2allpurpose wrote:

      wonderboy,

      isn’t that pretty much what “I” am saying? pretty sure….

      In Chris’s defense, I don’t think he’s saying that they shouldn’t rest. He said that if they rested even 1 minute for conference, they would be fools. If there is no reason to taper for conference, they shouldn’t

      what do you think, “if they rested even one min. for conf. they would be fools….” means?

      By the way, I may be missing something but are H2 and Chris Knight the same person arguing with himself? H2, are you suggesting that YOU said “if they rested for even one minute, they would be fools”?

    • #40728
      Chris Knight
      Member

      I know that most of the users here aren’t as familiar with D2 (perfectly understandable – it is a D3 swimming site, after all), but trust me: Franchise was very, very successful as a swimmer and would be equally successful were he to pursue coaching. And on top of that he’s a hell of a nice guy to boot.

      And no, I am not H2allpurpose arguing with myself.

    • #40729
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      I know that most of the users here aren’t as familiar with D2 (perfectly understandable – it is a D3 swimming site, after all), but trust me: Franchise was very, very successful as a swimmer and would be equally successful were he to pursue coaching. And on top of that he’s a hell of a nice guy to boot.

      And no, I am not H2allpurpose arguing with myself.

      Chris, I appreciate your thoughts regarding franchise but I will mention one thing. Being a good swimmer does not equal being a good coach. I’m not arguing his success as a swimmer, though I’m fairly certain I was faster (sorry, sprinter ego coming out). I’m arguing his theory regarding training and competing in certain events.

    • #40730
      Chris Knight
      Member

      What I took from his post was that he sees technique as the most important element in training for fly and back. He liked doing his long sets free and focusing on maintaining his stroke on shorter fly and back sets, sometimes just easy, sometimes race-pace but short. That way he wouldn’t break down as is so easy to do in practice. And I happen to agree with this particular line of thinking – in any case, I’m going to listen to the opinion of a guy who kicked my ass by 4 solid seconds or more in the 1 fly for 3 straight years, and who would have been the national champ in the 2 fly as a senior had he been in D3 instead of D2 (where he was “merely” the runner-up).

      Furthermore, even if you don’t agree with the above, just because he’s formed this opinion relative to his own swimming does not mean anything about how he would do as a coach, because he never has been – he would improve over time. The reason I feel he would be successful is not because of his thoughts on fly and back training per se, but because I saw first hand how much he cared about his team and gave everything he had to bring them success, even though most of them were nowhere near his level of talent.

      Again, there’s no reason you could have known any of this, especially because franchise is too modest to toot his own horn regarding his skill – but I’m happy to do it for him.

    • #40731
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I see where you can come to that conclusion but I also see that he says he did better when he didn’t focus or train for certain events. It says nothing about limited specificity or alternating between specificity and non-specificity. It does say his 200 fly was better when he did shorter fly sets in practice and I agree with that philosophy. Practicing great technique and holding that technique for short distances is preferable to longer distances with a breakdown in technique.

      I hope he wasn’t stating that the way to improve in races is to not train for them. I got that idea because his coaches thought it was mental and he either thought they were doing too much yardage with bad technique (as you believe) or that he shouldn’t have trained for those events at all (as I thought). Regardless, my comment about being faster holds true and I will toot my own horn.

    • #40732
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Regardless, my comment about being faster holds true and I will toot my own horn.

      OK.

    • #40733
      franchise
      Member

      wonderboy33,
      maybe this will help you understand what kind of a coach I would be

      You know, I am not sure if I am the best example for the reason that I was different than many other swimmers, at least my body was..
      Looking back at my whole career I realized that what worked for most of my teammates never worked for me and vice versa..

    • #40734
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Nope, does nothing for me. I think the premise is wrong from the beginning. While it may be true that you were a bit different than other swimmers, many swimmers end up swimming faster in their “off” events due to the fact that the pressure is off. Though I obviously have no experience watching you swim, I tend to trust your coaches, who maintained that it was mental.

      Do I think that there is a cookie-cutter approach that works for all swimmers? No. Then again, I don’t believe that training for the freestyle in itself makes you a better flyer or breaststroker. Regardless, it sounds like you are inferring that you do believe that the problem was that you trained for your specialty events at all, and not that you needed to train more intelligently and focus on your technique more. That would be contrary to what Chris said your theory was.

      Lastly, I hope you all understand that I am joking around about the “being faster” stuff. I’m sure franchise was very successful. I swam the 50 free though, amongst other events, and 50 freestylers are the fastest.

    • #40735
      Balki
      Member

      Lastly, I hope you all understand that I am joking around about the “being faster” stuff. I’m sure franchise was very successful. I swam the 50 free though, amongst other events, and 50 freestylers are the fastest.

      No, we don’t! A crappy sprinter like yourself is not the fastest.

      P.S. Franchise, emotional PM should I say?

    • #40736
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Balki wrote:

      No, we don’t! A crappy sprinter like yourself is not the fastest.

      Balki, let me assure you, I was not merely a sprinter, though I don’t think that should be considered a bad thing. I could swim every stroke, every distance, with success. My specialties were free and fly. The 50 was my best race. That’s the fastest race. Those are the fastest swimmers. End of story.

    • #40737
      Balki
      Member

      Balki

    • #40738
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      wonderboy:
      what were your events/time (no names, so you can BS your times if you really want, and the speculation is just as fun…

      you obviously are a sprinter with limited knowledge of swimming overal. You might have been a good sprinter and swimmer, but your a chode for a coach if you are one.

      It makes sense if you focus on one stroke and don’t get faster as your body breaks down in specific muscle movements. I’ve had it happen to myself and many swimmers I know from many programs. It happens a lot wtih breaststrokers, they really don’t have to do much work and they still can get faster, as long as they do some technique work and some decent pace work with proper rest. There are a lot of variable that you could argue on this, so hopefully you do, in order to truely validate your opinions.

      Its been done many times that multipule shaves can work and even close together. shaving does nothing to take away or give to the amount of work that has already been done…another example of your limited knowledge of swimming…if you rest three days and shave you’ll be faster, if you rest another week and shave again, you’ll be even faster, rest one more week and shave and if your not a mental miget you’ll be again faster….that would be about 17 days of rest, normal rest/taper

      You get more experience swimming faster, so there less unknown about “where your at”
      You would gain confidence as the rest/taper period develops, thus swim faster when needed.
      But most importantly, you’ll just plain be faster…

      I don’t know why I am taking the time to do this, but its sunday and I haven’t really pissed in the soup for a while…

      also, I am just having fun as well, so grain of salt with this post…

    • #40739
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Since you decided to attack my knowledge as a coach, my ability as a swimmer, my code of honesty, and my background, here are the answers you have been looking for. Now, it’s only fair that you send me your coaching resume’, your swimming background, a picture of your girlfriend (or your parents basement if that’s where you currently live) and proof that you have broken :30 in the 50 free.

      Events/Times (from 1992-1996):

      50 free = 20.9 (20.3R) in high school
      100 free = 45.79 in college
      200 free = 1:45 in college
      500 free = 4:49 in high school
      1650 free = 17:30 (at age 15)
      100 fly = 50.3 in college
      100 back = 52.7 in high school
      100 breast = 1:00.8 in high school
      200 I.M. = 1:59 in high school
      College Record-Holder
      State Champion
      Zone Champion
      Junior National Competitor
      US Open Competitor
      NCAA DIII All-American

      Coaching Accumen:
      As a Head Coach, built a program from 79 swimmers to 160+ swimmers, and took the club from 23rd place at the State Meet to 8th place overall and 2nd place at Senior State. This was over the span of 2003-2007. In 2006, I was named the Developing Coach of the Year for my state and in 2007, I was named the Senior Coach of the Year for my state. I have coached numerous State Champions, Zone Champions, and National Qualifiers. I’ve placed dozens of kids into college programs, with 11 kids that graduated in 2007 going on to swim in college. One of my most recent swimmers just signed a National Letter of Intent to swim at a major D1 Swimming Power.

      Being that you like to take one or two specific examples and justify your theories, let me school you on how this really works. The statement you made makes no sense as it has no point “It makes sense if you focus on one stroke and don’t get faster as your body breaks down in specific muscle movements”. Could you tell me what you meant to say there as it really isn’t a complete sentence?

      The negative you give is that the “body breaks down”. This is what happens during training, does it not? The muscles continually tear and build themselves back up. Why is that a negative? Strokes like breastroke are based on timing, and that timing is not always there, especially in the heat of hard training. Then again, if you put the work in, the timing will come around, sometimes later than expected, and even late into the taper. In fact, the breast seems to be the stroke that falls in line the latest, relative to other strokes, and it takes confidence to stick to the training.

      I don’t think you even know what you are arguing. I agree that it is sometimes good to lay off of your specialty for a practice or two in order to re-group and work on some weaknesses. However, technique work is a part of every “Good” coaches repertoire on a daily basis. You don’t have to beat the heck out of your specialty strokes, just work on them on a regular basis. That could mean drill work, anaerobic, aerobic sets, turn work, etc. Do World-Class swimmers neglect to train for their specialty because they saw another swimmer or two swim a fast race when they weren’t focusing on a specific event? No, they actually do train for their specialty.

      As for shaving goes, your evidence for the need for shaving at both conference and Nationals is that you swim faster a week later than you did before. Is this not primarily due to the act of resting? Why shave for the first meet when you already expect to swim fast due to being rested? Why not save it for Nationals, when it really counts? Mental midgets won’t step up regardless so that’s not an issue. If you trust your training, your coaches, and your ability, then you don’t need to put it all on the line until Nationals. What’s the point of shaving for conference when you are assured of making Nationals? So your seed time becomes a little bit faster. Please, who cares.

      Lastly, Chris, you were wrong. Franchise, and now H2, are advocating the ridiculous. On another note, I’m going to start competing again. My goal is to swim a fast mile. I’m going to “run” only 100 meter sprints in order to reach that goal.

    • #40740
      franchise
      Member

      Lastly, Chris, you were wrong. Franchise, and now H2, are advocating the ridiculous.

      Isn’t it funny how wonderboy was unsure at first what I meant with my post and then without my further explanation concluded that CK was wrong and that I was advocating ridiculous?!

    • #40741
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      wonderboy,

      loosen up the speedo, if you still can get one on old man…I don’t think that you and I are barking up different trees, just the opposite sides of them…
      also reading your post, I am not sure that you and I differ that much on how swimming stroke should be done. I do think that you have figured out that franchise and myself were DII guys, so you are all hot and bothered…
      There are a lot of programs both at your level and mine that train pretty much IM for all swimmers, for muscle breakdown reasons. I am not saying its the way to go, but swimming has a lot of ways to approach a season.
      Also, you are dealing with younger athletes that may or may not be physically mature….so, when you get to college you sometimes can’t do the things you did as a little rug rat, the body doesn’t recover as fast as it once did, nor does it react the same way.

      50 free: 23.6 Meters(after college, and shoulder surgery)
      100 free: 52.3 meters(” ” ” “)
      200 free: 1:41 relay take off unrested, but shaved
      500 free: 4:34.5
      1000 free: 9:24
      1650 free: 15:52
      100 back: 1:00 meters (after college, pre shoulder cuts)
      200back 1:54
      100 breast :59.1 relay unrested, but shaved
      200 IM 1:58 in HS
      400IM 4:05.4

      school records in both individual event(s) and relay(s) in both High School and College, conference records in HS/college as well…

      coached a few NCAA division II qualifiers/ All-Americans, a National champion.
      i have four swimmers in MY group now that are all within .50 of Division I NCAA b cuts, we’ll see by feburary ๐Ÿ™‚

      I have coached numberous athletes that have qualified for their Olympic trails/National champions meets within the past two years, and competed in international competition.

      I don’t live in my rents basement, just bought a house with my lil’ salary, my fiancee will post pic’s for me as I am not that hot with the computers so much.

      As a sprinter I am suprised that you are still stuck in the 1980’s mentality of swimming. I think for a club coach this is good, at least your swimmers will enter college with a good amount of mental toughness, and plenty of room to get faster…

      You do have a qualified resume to have your opinion, but I am pretty sure I am qualified to have mine…the difference between my arguements is the pionts I use. You use some dumb analogy with running 100m sprints to swim a good mile? C’mon..did you actually graduate college?

      My comments were based on the successes I have had as a swimmer and the successes and failures I have as a coach, coupled with those of other swimmers/coaches…I am not saying its only way, but its one way to look at things that positively have worked and will continue to work.

      I did make a statement that you might have missed earlier that I was confused by how the backststroke was negatively affected due to use, that is something that fly and breaststrokers experience more often from bad muscle memory due to stroke breakdowns associated with overuse.

      your swimming resume is pretty impressive, but your not on the level of franchise…

    • #40742
      wonderboy33
      Member

      H2, I appreciate your background as a coach and swimmer but let’s get this straight. I was merely defending my ability as it was you who questioned it. I do chuckle at the fact that you listed meters times where you thought you didn’t measure up though. That was quite clever but you and I know the real truth as stated in a previous e-mail. I was faster and I did it (apparently) long before you, which makes it more impressive. Not to mention the fact that your meter time doesn’t measure up as well (23.2). Now, am I saying you were slow? Absolutely not, it looks as if you are a very accomplished and well-rounded swimmer, not to mention an aspiring coach. I’m just saying that I swam the 50 free, and the people who swim this event are the fastest by the pure nature of the event.

      Now, coaching a few athletes that have qualified/competed for “their” olympic trials? I suppose I could have listed the fact that I coached a member of the Mexican National Team, a girl who was 13 years old, but I didn’t. If you’re talking about Zimbabwe, I’m not impressed. But, then again, I’m happy for those athletes.

      You mention that you think that I am stuck in the 80’s style of coaching yet you provide no reasoning behind this statement. If the implication is that I am concerned with yardage at the expense of technique, you couldn’t be further from the truth. At the moment, I am coaching a group of advanced 9-12 year-olds. We do no more than 3000-3500 yards on a daily basis. We work on stroke drills on a daily basis, we work on turns, starts, streamlines just as well. In fact, the yardage theory is something that I absolutely despise. We work on swimming smarter and more efficient races.

      To clarify…you are coaching college athletes, not masters swimmers. To say that it is easier for me as a coach because I work with younger kids and you work with those whose bodies don’t recover as fast as they once did is a bit misleading. Come on, these are college athletes. If their bodies can’t do what they once did and need much more time to recover, then they should have a conversation with Dara Torres. Ask her about recovery time. I should throw in the point that I have coached college athletes in my capacity as well. I’m not completely unfamiliar with that side of coaching.

      It is dumb to say that you should not train for events that you will be focusing on at the end of the season. The analogy I used was, admittedly, sarcastic. Perhaps a better example would have been if I were to train 25 yard sprints in order to get ready for the mile.

      If you call yourself a coach, and have the background and resume’ to back it up, then you are doing a disservice to the athletes in your care if that is your philosophy. I still haven’t heard an acceptable reason why this would be considered desirable to my point of view. I’ve only received personal jabs in place of reasoning.

      As for shaving (I know you didn’t answer that question), why don’t they just shave for every meet of the season? It allows for faster times and builds confidence. What’s the point of waiting until the conference meet if you won’t wait for Nationals? Use this advantage all season-long.

      Negatively affected due to use? Are you kidding me? Why don’t you do what the great Jim Steen of Kenyon did. Go take a sabbatical for a year, consult with olympic coaches, and then get back to me. You see if the preponderance of great coaches agree that you shouldn’t train for your own events.

      I suppose that you have a certain point of view due to the fact that you have dealt with shoulder-injury in your career. It seems you may have grown up with the “80’s” point of view. I, myself never had a shoulder injury (or any other overuse injury) as I grew up with a team that valued technique. While I may be older, it seems only one of us is the over-the-hill veteran battling against injury and the odds.

      To franchise, I suppose I’m still not sure what the two of you are advocating. If it’s to alternate between hitting your specialty hard one day and then drilling the next, I think that’s a fine idea. If it’s to hit your specialty hard every day, or to not hit your specialty at all, then I’m not in favor. I think a good mix is needed. I think any coach would say that.

    • #40743
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @franchise wrote:

      Lastly, Chris, you were wrong. Franchise, and now H2, are advocating the ridiculous.

      Isn’t it funny how wonderboy was unsure at first what I meant with my post and then without my further explanation concluded that CK was wrong and that I was advocating ridiculous?!

      Given the content of both your post and H2’s posts, I suppose I lumped you two in the same category. If you disagree with this categorization, please, feel free to throw in your two cents. I will be happy to admit that I was wrong in putting you two on the same side of the fence. I understand if your friendship and/or history with H2 precludes you from having a contrary opinion.

    • #40744
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      boy,

      yikes, I am just not as impressed with your resume as I was with franchises, thats my take. Nothing personal.

      the reason I listed meters times is because I didn’t get a chance to swim them during my college career. Not to split hairs, but I do have a better swimming resume, the coaching thing is not even worth arguing about since its too subjective. We would be comparing apples to oranges.

      people that swim the 50 are literally faster this is true;however, sprinters are born not made(people don’t usually mention sprinters as the toughest of athletes unless your in the weight room)

      I am glad to see that you are training little rug rats that way you are, they will benefit from it when they get to college so long as they don’t have a big of a chip on their shoulders as you do…sorry, I shouldn’t use that considering my own shoulder issues.

      I agree with you about having a healthy mix, so does franchise I assume….here is where I think were going wrong….I have been quilty of this myself as a coach and I’ve seen this with my own career. I have seen people attempt to do a lot of stroke work, more so with fly and breast….like 10 x 200s with limited rest like what you normally do with free/back. I am not real comfortable with that type of training with those srokes. I was supposed to be a breaststroker out of HS and I got to the college level and trained a lot of breast, in fact it was a lot of everything for me considering what I came from…my breast didn’t improve, but my distance free developed.

      So from my soph year to my senior year I didn’t train much breast at all and I did PR’s in season….strangly enough I met a kenyon swimmer at an invite that experienced the exact same thing..I only use the kenyon swimmer since you mentioned Jim in your post. I am not comfortable talking about jim, since he’s way above both of our level’s.

      I don’t think that I mentioned that strokers shouldn’t train their events at all, just don’t believe that a lot of swimiming is neccessary. I have had some conversations with franchise and I tend to agree with his outlook on stroke training, obviously its working with four school records broken from my stroke group. Is this proof? Not till we see more drops in february and then again in March….but its a start, is it not?
      I like to do a lot of 25 and 50 repeats with rest dependent on HR,
      I like to mix drills and freestyle into “base” sets do keep stroke technique together.
      I like to give those swimmers more lane space and their intervals are usually pretty concervative.
      breaststrokers get extra time to stretch and flyers get extra time to kick in my groups.
      ….actually, I’d be interested more so in what you do for strokers, since you got a lot to say, that that this is a bad thing..

      the 80’s comment was based on the vibe that I was getting from your responses that they should never shave or rest for anything but their most important meet….i get kids that have that from their club coaches, but most of them are a lot older than you, so I was surprised. I was equally surprised that you were a sprinter, as sprinters tend to be more on the creative and out of the box type persons. After reading what you are doing with the development groups, I’d say maybe I’m just getting caught up with your egotistical comments.

    • #40745
      wonderboy33
      Member

      H2, perhaps I misinterpreted your point of view. I appreciate the fact that you have taken the time to clarify. I agree with your philosophy regarding yardage and technique. I regularly post my practices and check in on the GoSwim.TV website and see a lot of information and differing theories. In fact, I remember seeing that one coach had actually had his swimmers do 100 x 100’s as a New Year’s Eve practice. Now, that doesn’t seem too out of line until you learn that it was BREASTROKE! That coach should be investigated as far as I’m concerned. Either way, it’s a worthless set. What aspect of technique could a swimmer be focused on during a set like that?

      As a current coach of young swimmers, we never do anything more than 25’s, 50’s, or 75’s of breast or fly. With free and back, maybe some 200’s, but mostly 100’s or less. I might throw a 400 I.M. in there every once in a while but it’s not a regular thing. I have many drills that I have either stolen from others or woken up in the middle of the night thinking of. We use these on a regular basis and have seen a lot of success from many of them.

      When I coached senior swimmers, the training was basically the same. I have found that my swimmers have been very successful in the distance events, even though we never really do what is traditionally considered “distance training”. In fact, we train more with shorter yardage, short rest sets than anything else. Holding pace and negative splitting are more important.

      I agree that 10 x 200 breast seems a bit much but I know that there are a lot of coaches that follow this method. I think I might alter the set in the following way:

      10 x 200:
      odd = breast, 50 kick + 50 drill + 100 build
      even = free w/max distance per stroke

      I didn’t really get faster in college, for a variety of reasons. Unfortunately, one of the biggest reasons was that I had a coach who really had no idea what he was doing. He literally got the job because his dad was the wrestling coach. He had absolutely no background in swimming when he started. He learned some things along the way but I think a more experienced coach would have made some difference. That, and the fact that I only swam my first 2 years and then transferred and never swam again.

      I actually didn’t start out as a sprinter. Up until the time I was 16 years old, I was a distance swimmer. I swam the mile, the 1000, and the 500 at Zone Meets and State Meets each year. Breastroke was always my worst event, and I only swam a decent time because I had really good turns and pullouts. Interestingly enough, I consider breastroke to be my strength as a coach. Probably because I was always told what I was doing wrong and remember that to this day.

      As you can see, there are a number of events I listed that are not particularly impressive, especially the mile, and the 500. These are events that I did not train for or compete in much after the age of 15. Both events are unrested. I believe in full-disclosure though, and threw them in the mix.

      I’m not sure I completely agree that sprinters are born though. It’s true that sprinters tend to be the more athletic kids but I think it takes work to be truly good. Admittedly, it’s not the type of work or volume of work that distance swimmers do but it certainly can be intense. I probably should have stuck with the longer events though. I was always a hard worker but I was 5’10” and around 140 pounds. That doesn’t make for a world-class sprinter does it?

      I’m really not an egotistical guy in real life. I’m confident, but not cocky. I suppose the anonymity is part of it, and also I am passionate about what swimming has done for me and my life. I’m sarcastic, and I’m sure that comes across in my posts. I really mean no disrespect. In fact, I enjoy the opportunity to hear from other coaches on a regular basis. I’m sure that franchise is a better swimmer than I am. I was being absolutely literal with the comment about being faster due to the fact that I swim the 50 free.

    • #40746
      frenchfries
      Member

      I am interested to see Franchise’s resume. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that he could lay the smack down on just about every one of wonderboy’s times (by a lot). Since he graduated last year, he probably doesn’t have the coaching pedigree that you have.

      Franchise…let’s see it.

    • #40747
      franchise
      Member

      I really wanted to stop talking about this topic but since wonderboy33 improved in my eyes with last couple of posts I will write some..

      The main reason why I didn’t want to write is the personal attack on me which had no bases, I wasn’t given a chance to explain my post.. at first that is, afterwards (when boy realized that MAYBE he misunderstood my post) I was just too sick to my stomach to reply anymore..

      The reason why I felt this way is because I knew from the beginning that we all agree on most of the things.. Of course wonderboy I don’t think you shouldn’t practice at all for the event you are preparing for.. I am just saying that what most coaches do (apparently not you since you said you like drills and less yardage so you get my kudos on that) to prepare you for the event is not what makes me better.. You all knew that for fly and breast, and I just wanted to say that I found the exact same thing with my backstroke.. 10*100 backstroke is an awful set for me and anything above that of course.. I know it for the fact, trust me, it’s not mental.. if it was I wouldnt swim slower in the practice too..
      btw I was going to the last NCAA saying that my best chance is 200 fly and it turned out that way..

      as for shaving/wearing fastskins before NCAA, H2 and me have a different opinion than most of the swimmers and it’s hard for me to explain my view on that in less than 5-6 pages (to make sure I am not misunderstood again)

      As CK said, writing a resume on forums in order to make some points across is not who i am!

    • #40748
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @frenchfries wrote:

      I am interested to see Franchise’s resume. I am gonna go out on a limb and say that he could lay the smack down on just about every one of wonderboy’s times (by a lot). Since he graduated last year, he probably doesn’t have the coaching pedigree that you have.

      Franchise…let’s see it.

      Which, in fact, was previously conceded. If you think I’m naive enough to believe that I was the fastest swimmer in the world, you would be wrong. Having said that, if he graduated last year, his times were achieved 10-15 years after mine were. Have there been advances in swimming since the time period in which I swam? Yes. I remember my coaches telling me to look forward and have the water level at my forehead while swimming freestyle. Look at the progression of times and you will see that swimmers are very much faster today than they were years ago.

      Is Michael Phelps faster than Mark Spitz? Absolutely. Michael Phelps would “lay the smack down” on every one of Spitz’s times. Is his resume more impressive? They are pretty similar, though Phelps will be considered better when it’s all said and done. Now, obviously I didn’t swim in the 70’s. But, I was an All-American, as I’m guessing Franchise is, so I was right in the mix back in the day.

      And, no, I don’t think I’m on the level of Mark Spitz. Though I do have a similar amount of chest hair.

    • #40749
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @franchise wrote:

      I really wanted to stop talking about this topic but since wonderboy33 improved in my eyes with last couple of posts I will write some..

      The main reason why I didn’t want to write is the personal attack on me which had no bases, I wasn’t given a chance to explain my post.. at first that is, afterwards (when boy realized that MAYBE he misunderstood my post) I was just too sick to my stomach to reply anymore..

      The reason why I felt this way is because I knew from the beginning that we all agree on most of the things.. Of course wonderboy I don’t think you shouldn’t practice at all for the event you are preparing for.. I am just saying that what most coaches do (apparently not you since you said you like drills and less yardage so you get my kudos on that) to prepare you for the event is not what makes me better.. You all knew that for fly and breast, and I just wanted to say that I found the exact same thing with my backstroke.. 10*100 backstroke is an awful set for me and anything above that of course.. I know it for the fact, trust me, it’s not mental.. if it was I wouldnt swim slower in the practice too..
      btw I was going to the last NCAA saying that my best chance is 200 fly and it turned out that way..

      as for shaving/wearing fastskins before NCAA, H2 and me have a different opinion than most of the swimmers and it’s hard for me to explain my view on that in less than 5-6 pages (to make sure I am not misunderstood again)

      As CK said, writing a resume on forums in order to make some points across is not who i am!

      Thanks for the reply. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I would be interested in the fastskin theory but appreciate that it may be hard to explain. It is agreed that most coaches do the wrong thing and overtrain kids to the point that it’s not fun or worthwhile anymore. These tend to be the older coaches (yes, older than myself) that are stuck in the “80’s” and even the “70’s” to be more exact. I tend to follow the David Salo model instead.

    • #40750
      franchise
      Member

      well, just like H2 was saying it doesn’t really matter if you shave before the big meet.. as a matter of fact I knew of world-class swimmers who were shaving a week before the champs (not even for a meet, just at home one weekend before the big one) because it helped with a recovery.. your muscles recover faster when you are shaved..

      when you come to the big meet and you shaved for the first time this year and the guy next to you shaved twice that year, it doesn’t make a difference.. yes you will probably drop more time but essentially it will make no difference.. to clarify that.. let’s say you swim 21.2 on avg at dual-meets, not shaved and then you shave and taper and you swim 19.7 at NCAA.. my theory is that if you shaved for a couple of dual-meets that could maybe be important (break a pool record, rivals, etc.) or an invite, you will go let’s say 20.8 but will go 19.7 in the end as well.. so why not do it? the main reason for me was, I didn’t feel like it so I would on average have only one shaving before the NCAA..

      now, this is where fastskins come in.. same story, why not put them on and achieve something and in the end will be the same, unless you will tell me that you want to have a drag or no help from the fast suit so it makes it harder for you and is some kind of a good training.. I don’t buy that, you have enough of that in the practice, and I am dead after the race no matter what I had on.. if I didn’t follow this I wouldn’t have as many records and National Swimmer of the week awards.. I take a lot of pride in those so why not do it?
      p.s. I was using older legskins which are still helpful but will not be used at NCAA..

      now, don’t think that this is the same as tapering for the dual-meet, because that’s certainly not what I was doing.. it’s all the same, except when it comes to race I go in the locker room and put on a legskin..

    • #40751
      franchise
      Member

      What H2 is saying is that why not shave for the conference, it could make a difference between 1st and 3rd place, or the relay and who knows, the way this conference is looking to be so even, it might make a difference in who wins it..
      It is not going to make a difference on your NCAA time; you won’t drop as much, so what? Maybe you will have a****es telling you it’s mental, but you don’t care cause you know it’s not..
      That is our point!

    • #40752
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Yes, I’m sure it did help you get swimmer of the week awards and it sounds like those were important. Would you have gotten those awards without shaving? I guess we’ll never know. My thought is that I would rather try to swim as fast as I could without shaving and know that I was going to drop significantly from my seed time in the end. The guys that were seeded with me, and had shaved previously in the season, were at a bit of a disadvantage as far as going even faster is concerned.

      I suppose it’s a bit different with world class swimmers. They have a “big meet” on on almost monthly basis, Pan-Pacs, National Champs, World Champs, etc. I guess it depends on what you consider a “big meet”. I don’t consider Conference to be a big meet if you are a National-Finalist but I’m sure there are those that do.

      I’m still not sure why you wouldn’t taper for every meet if the theory is that there is nothing wrong with shaving multiple times throughout the season. The idea seems to be that you want to swim fast all of the time. Why not shave over and over except for the fact that it wouldn’t be a fun thing to do all of the time. I don’t know, it seems to be a slippery slope.

      I have to admit that I have no experience with fastskins. When I swam, we all used to bikini style suits. At the big meets, we would use the paper suits that last for maybe 5-10 uses. I wish I would have been able to use them as they have most certainly made a difference. In fact, I’ve seen many 10 and under kids use them. That’s a whole new can of worms though.

    • #40753
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @franchise wrote:

      What H2 is saying is that why not shave for the conference, it could make a difference between 1st and 3rd place, or the relay and who knows, the way this conference is looking to be so even, it might make a difference in who wins it..
      It is not going to make a difference on your NCAA time; you won’t drop as much, so what? Maybe you will have a****es telling you it’s mental, but you don’t care cause you know it’s not..
      That is our point!

      Agree to disagree. Though I’m not sure it’s acceptable to call your coaches a****es because they believe something about your swimming. Yes, at your level you did have an idea about your body and what was best training-wise. However, most coaches are experts, and they have had experience with many swimmers over the years. If they believe it is mental, there must be some reason why they feel this way. They are the ones that see you train and compete on a daily basis.

    • #40754
      franchise
      Member

      I’m still not sure why you wouldn’t taper for every meet if the theory is that there is nothing wrong with shaving multiple times throughout the season.

      I am alomst cetain you wanted to say “I’m still not sure why you wouldn’t SHAVE…” so I will respond under that assumption..
      like I said, it’s boring and someone might think you are gay (not that there is anything wrong with that) and you can get almost the same affect with fastskins so we do that instead..

      My thought is that I would rather try to swim as fast as I could without shaving and know that I was going to drop significantly from my seed time in the end. The guys that were seeded with me, and had shaved previously in the season, were at a bit of a disadvantage as far as going even faster is concerned.

      you see that’s just mental to me.. it means nothing how much you drop if you know the reasons and dont conclude that you did something wrong..

    • #40755
      franchise
      Member

      Agree to disagree

      true..
      and I actually didn’t mean to call any of my former coaches that bc I respect them all and I learned a lot from each.. I was thinking more of people who don’t know the facts but go ahead and run their mouth about..
      I have heard so many times “It’s all in his head”..
      I am one of those who doesn’t believe in “swimming is 90% mental and 10% physical” or whatever the ratios are..
      This is not to say that some swimmers don’t have the issues but if you are not with them on a daily basis for several hours (so coaches certainly can draw that conclusion) be quiet.

      In my case I was annoyed by that because I strongly believed that wasn’t the case and that was their excuse for my poor performance..

      On a similar note, Duje said in an interview after 2003 season how disappointed he was with the season and Mike Bottom but the only reason he is staying is because Mike admitted he was wrong but knew what to do differently.. that is a rare thing to see, unfortunately.. 12 months later Duje won a silver medal in Athens and 20 months later broke the NCAA record with 41.4

    • #40756
      wonderboy33
      Member

      You are correct, I meant shaving. How interesting would it be to taper for every meet! I actually know that there are high school coaches that rest a few days into each dual meet. Ridiculous. And, yes I suppose people might assume you were gay, not that there’s anything wrong with that, if you were to shave for every meet. It would be annoying, that’s for sure.

      The effect of having not shaved before Nationals is purely mental. I suppose it’s not a big deal with certain swimmers that have the strength of mind to know that they can still go faster even though it’s the second or third shave. My athletes aren’t on that level and I suspect that at the D3 or even D2 level, there are many athletes who would benefit from holding the shaving until the last meet.

      I’m not sure what the percentages are but I think the mental aspect is important, especially at the end of the year. Any mental edge can make a difference. But, if you can sell the plan to your swimmers, that’s the key. Shaving or not shaving, it’s up to the coach.

      How many mistakes have I made as a coach? Plenty. I feel like I’m always flying by the seat of my pants when it comes down to taper time. I worry right up until the first day when it goes well. Then I hope that it will continue until the end of the meet.

      Lastly, one of the posts indicated that there was an entire team in this conference that was assured of making Nationals. What team is it and are they really just that fast? I’ve never heard of an entire team not having to worry about conference.

    • #40757
      franchise
      Member

      SCAD, because they are in NAIA and the cuts for their Championship are slow..

    • #40758
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @franchise wrote:

      SCAD, because they are in NAIA and the cuts for their Championship are slow..

      I suspected they may be slow as I can’t see an entire team making the cuts that I would normally think of as National cuts. Still, there’s not one guy who will miss the cuts? Wow.

    • #40759
      Balki
      Member

      I am one of those who doesn’t believe in “swimming is 90% mental and 10% physical” or whatever the ratios are..

      swimming is 2% mental, 98% physical

    • #40760
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      we are all born with limitations, thank god. If it weren’t for those talent limitations all our successes would be based on will alone. I am not liking that idea much and neither do most people, so I’d like to think our success has a ceiling based on our god-given talents…

      however, its hard to say that mental toughness has such a small amount to do with it…to me this arguement is like the chicken v. egg analogy.

    • #40761
      maverick1
      Member

      on the topic of shaving in season or not or whatever was going on:

      at least one of you was a sprinter, were there any times that you wish you would have had a “trial run’ to make sure you had everything ‘down’ for your races….i coached age group swimming for the past two years and especially with my kids age 13-16, i would always make sure to get a few pretty much fully rested swims in during the season to make sure that we had our race plan put together (more for the longer swims) and to make sure that the kids could handle swimming much faster than before and still hitting their turn (s) and finishes.

      I found that this usually helped, but there were always kids who would mess it up at the bigger taper meets, but just not focusing.

    • #40762
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      mav,

      good points…this is something that I was trying to convey…why not shave all the time wonderboy?, the law of deminishing returns, or performance increases at a decreasing rate.
      shaving does not take away or give to the amount of body of work a person has or has not done. However, the mental side are those that want to wear drag suits till right before the event, put on the fastskin,etc. and try to do something without any real idea what will happen. This is crazy why people think that works the best. yes people have huge time drops because they set themselves up so that there is no way they won’t go faster!
      I am going to go out on a limb and start experimenting with no drag suits during stroke and drill work. Why? Jump in with a drag suit and do some fly and breast work, then try it without a drag suit…what happens, the stroke is much more easier to do correctly, period. So why not have perfect stroke, and muscle memory?
      I presented that to some of my swimmers and some are weary and I understand, but I stopped wearing a drag suit late in my career and was able to do things in practice not possible before….i know where this is going to go in terms of combacks so I’ll address my thought process as to why I felt it worked for me….

      I felt more comfortable holding 1:01-1:03 all day in practice than going 1:05-1:07…..knowing that my pace for the 500 was going to have to be :54.50
      so what if my time drops weren’t that much, but I had less to drop, right?

      just my thoughts…

    • #40763
      franchise
      Member

      I am going to go out on a limb and start experimenting with no drag suits during stroke and drill work. Why? Jump in with a drag suit and do some fly and breast work, then try it without a drag suit…what happens, the stroke is much more easier to do correctly, period. So why not have perfect stroke, and muscle memory?

      you might be on to something here, I knew of swimmers taking of the drag suit when it became hard, again you have a****es saying that they are not tough enough but I never fully rejected it.. it makes sense to me..

    • #40764
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Mav, I coach Age Group swimmers as well and have to wonder why you categorize your 13-16 year-olds as age-groupers? Are they in your age group program based on ability? If so, I’m not sure that shaving and tapering is really an issue for age groupers in general. I know there are programs out there that do enough training with their age groupers and actually shave and taper them but it’s not something I’m familiar with. My 9-12 year olds don’t train enough for the classic shave and taper.

      I like to have my age groupers learn to race in many different situations, especially when tired. I think it’s good to give them a tough set and then have them step up to the blocks and race afterwards. I think it sets up the mentality of pushing through the pain when you are on the third 50 of the 200 free or the third day of a prelim/final meet (when they get older).

      If you are talking about Senior or even Pre-Senior level kids, then I don’t really see a problem with tapering them for a mid-season meet if they are shooting for something in particular. I know I rested for a mid-season meet at 16 years old to make my Junior Cut. I guess it depends on where it falls in your training cycle, what you’re shooting for, and how much training time you have after the meet.

      I think the goal is to swim fast at the end. However it happens, that is the ultimate goal. Shaving or not shaving. I don’t think you are setting yourself up for failure by waiting and I don’t think you are getting a leg up by shaving sooner. By doing one, you get less of a time drop but perhaps more of an idea of how you will swim at the end, and the other affords bigger time drops when it counts.

      On the subject of drag suits, I have no problem with your theory H2. Though I would have a problem with a kid that takes it off when a set gets hard. I would rather see them either wear it throughout the entire set or don’t wear it at all. For the sake of consistency if nothing else. I have to question the type of drag suit you are talking about. The drag suit that allows you to hold 1:05-1:07’s instead of 1:01-1:03’s has to have pockets. I too would like to see a kid hold race pace instead of being slower than race pace because of the drag suit. Also, I think anything that hampers the timing of the breastroke in particular is not helping. I agree that going without drag is a good idea.

    • #40765
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Also, Mav, are you talking about kids that have never shaved or tapered before? If so, I think a trial run in the middle of the season is a great idea.

    • #40766
      H2allpurpose
      Member

      wonderboy,

      i see what your talking about, and I agree…I don’t let the drag suits fly off because sets get tough…I only encourage it to swimmers when we’ll do some stroke quality,etc.

      the drag suits I wore and talk about are the speedo mess ones, I don’t wear them anymore, I wear tyr polo type drag suits with seemingly less drag. the times per pace my be somewhat exaggerated, but the point was not.

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