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    • #11953
      SixBags
      Member

      Besides AJP, Calvin guys really don’t post or pay much attention to this site. AJ is pretty boring, because he has to keep his job, so it’s time to get some new flavors on this site.
      Here’s my opinion from a Calvin point of view.
      Calvin needs an alumni recruiter…Brad White’s legendary figure only last so long. Dan does a good job bringing in solid recruits, but he needs help getting the numbers back up.
      Second, I know the calvin ladies never get mentioned, but the deserve a lot of credit. They will be dominate this year and place 3rd at Nats.
      As for the Calvin men, they will be solid again this year with a good core and a good supporting cast. They will run away with the 400 and 800 free relays.
      I have them 3rd behind Olivet. Need some event winners and runner ups though.
      Lastly, since Reeds Lake Tri is becoming a bigger event each year. I propose a competition between Hope and Calvin. Calvin guys have dominated at Reeds in years past, but Hope has some good finishers of late. Congrats to Greg, Matt, Ross, and Rob. Good effort, just be glad that AJ was racing for me this year.
      Out

    • #30339
      maverick1
      Member

      we should add kzoo and kzoo alumni to the competition at reeds lake

    • #30340
      fr0gman
      Member

      sixbags-

      Ok, I’ll bite. So do you have Calvin beating Emory, Kenyon, or Amherst? I understand that they tied Big D last year and Williams was senior heavy, but I don’t see Calvin any higher than 4th. Granted that would be a great result, but I think third is a stretch.

    • #30341
      miller
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      we should add kzoo and kzoo alumni to the competition at reeds lake

      Kzoo had me, Coach Kathy, Mr. Coach Greg and Elston at the Reeds Lake Tri. We weren’t exactly a powerhouse team (though Kathy did well in her class).

      Until Arce shows up, we’ll be the distant-third of MIAA teams competing.

      I did manage to beat Dick DeVos however (though he killed me on the running segment).

    • #30342
      silentp
      Member

      @fr0gman wrote:

      sixbags-

      Ok, I’ll bite. So do you have Calvin beating Emory, Kenyon, or Amherst? I understand that they tied Big D last year and Williams was senior heavy, but I don’t see Calvin any higher than 4th. Granted that would be a great result, but I think third is a stretch.

      I’ll bite too, 4th is possible but i don’t see them getting 3rd at this point. They do deserve a lot of credit though, no doubt there.

      You have the Calvin men running away with the 4FR and 8FR? I see them as a contender in both, especially the 8FR, but not running away with it. Even if they do run away with that relay, i don’t find it likely they run away with 4FR. They will contend for a top 3 spot, but they don’t have the depth of Hope or the studs of K… I think they’ll get 3rd with Hope being the one who would run away with it, if anyone.

    • #30343
      SixBags
      Member

      3rd is not out of the question with the amount of talent they have in all areas this year. They have a good chance to win a couple relays and put some more girls in the top 12. Williams relied too much on Payne last year, trust she pulled them back into every race. Kenyon and Emory are too good, but I think 3rd is up for grabs.
      Sorry for not including Kzoo. You guys are more than welcome. Arce would do well, so would BW if he came back. Coach Kathy looked strong, but did anyone see Coach DG. He tore it up, I think he beat Tuuk. Sorry for keeping out Jeff in the Reeds lake tri. I have a Hope housemate that keeps me in check.
      As for the relays, calvin men won’t run away with it, but they have all freestylers now and they won’t have a I.M. chump slowing them down.

    • #30344

      My Dear Friend Bags,

      I am more of a visual learner in my old age. I was hoping you could be so kind as to break down Calvin’s 400 and 800 Free Relays and show me what you believe they are capable of going. Perhaps then I will have an easier time seeing how Calvin will win both of those relays. The loss of Vroegindewey and Blohm leaves Hope vulnerable. Don’t be too hard on that pesky IMer you speak of, he was one of the more underrated and versatile swimmers to graduate in the last 5 years. He would have been valuable on any MIAA team he swam on in any of the 4 years he was in college.

      I look forward to your analysis,
      Sincerely,
      Commodore

    • #30345
      T-Bone
      Member

      @SixBags wrote:

      Coach Kathy looked strong, but did anyone see Coach DG.

      Coach Patnott told me he didn’t want to embarass any of the younger coaches so that is why he was not there on Saturday. Plus, he only does full ironmans.

    • #30346
      BillyBaroo
      Member

      I think T-bone is correct. But I heard after J.P. does a full Ironman, he then does the Ironman again, and wins, even beating Chuck Norris.

    • #30347
      stiles
      Member

      While it is true when you have Brad White and Peter Boumgarden race in a tri for you, it is possible to do real well. But I will contest the gentleman of Hope College out triathlon-ed Calvin’s gentlman this year….

      Taking the top 4 Hope guys and top 4 calvin guys and add the times together and divide by 4 and you get average overall finish. Now, I will say that I did not look outside the 20-24 age group, because that is how it was when we were in college.

      Name- overall place, (divsion place)

      Calvin
      Ress-19 (2)
      Tuuk-26 (4)
      Herrema- 302 (33)
      DeKorne- 303 (34)
      Averages- 162.50 (18.25)

      Hope
      Reznich-24 (3)
      Waterstone- 41 (7)
      Morrison- 164 (17)
      Geurink- 182 (20)
      Averages-102.75 (11.75)

      Sidenote: if we cross gender this thing, Calvin does come out on top….Replace Herrema and Dekorne with Abby Johnson-47 and Alex Wilson-122 and their average becomes 53.5. Further, you can add Coach DG-25 and take off Wilson’s 122 and the average becomes 29.5. Unfortunetly, we don’t…because I say.

    • #30348
      Derek
      Member

      Hope and Calvin are lucky that Kalamazoo alums leave the area.

    • #30349
      silentp
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      Hope and Calvin are lucky that Kalamazoo alums leave the area.

      And (Hope) also, for the sake of this “competition”, that PBG and White were unable to attend, being Calvin’s 2 best triathletes.

      Also, wouldn’t a time average be a better judge? I know if Kzoo had Mike in the race, we’d want that so that his 1st would help us more based on the number of minutes he’d win by.

    • #30350
      stiles
      Member

      two things:

      1. yes time would have been better way to measure.
      2. but then hope woul have lost, so in that way, it would not have been a better measure.

      i think this is just a great way to show that you can skew research to have it say whatever you want.

    • #30351
      Derek
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      i think this is just a great way to show that you can skew research to have it say whatever you want.

      Oh, great! Thanks for the lesson, now I have something to teach my class this afternoon.

    • #30352
      silentp
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      @stiles wrote:

      i think this is just a great way to show that you can skew research to have it say whatever you want.

      Oh, great! Thanks for the lesson, now I have something to teach my class this afternoon.

      THat’s a great point, i actually thought Hope would win by more if you did it by time, but the numbers can make things look anyway you want… Just ask Enron πŸ˜‰

    • #30353
      T-Bone
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      i think this is just a great way to show that you can skew research to have it say whatever you want.

      …everyone also seems to have overlooked the fact that you included Kyle Morrison, Hope College XC standout, in a comparison of swimmers/swimming alumni.

    • #30354
      silentp
      Member

      @T-Bone wrote:

      @stiles wrote:

      i think this is just a great way to show that you can skew research to have it say whatever you want.

      …everyone also seems to have overlooked the fact that you included Kyle Morrison, Hope College XC standout, in a comparison of swimmers/swimming alumni.

      No clue who Kyle is but i wonder if any Calvin runners competed, because those guys are DOMINANT in XC and no other MIAA runner would have even scored for them, because they went 1-5 at MIAAs (they also got 7th and 8th with a Hope guy in between).

    • #30355
      ajp
      Member

      Joel Post did the tri and was 55th overall. 8th in M19-24.

      So, safely to say, Calvin smacked down on Hope at Reeds lake.

    • #30356
      stiles
      Member

      i couple things to ajp’s post:

      1. If you add Joel Post’s time, calvin’s average is 100.5, hardly a smackdown to Hope’s 102.75.
      2. I laid the smack down on your ruedie-poo, candy a**. See results.
      3. If you take the top 5 from Hope and calvin, Hope wins.

      Stiles- 46,574
      AJP-0

      “There are lies, damned lies, and statistics.”
      -Albert Einstien.

    • #30357
      silentp
      Member

      @CommodoreLongfellow wrote:

      My Dear Friend Bags,

      I am more of a visual learner in my old age. I was hoping you could be so kind as to break down Calvin’s 400 and 800 Free Relays and show me what you believe they are capable of going. Perhaps then I will have an easier time seeing how Calvin will win both of those relays. The loss of Vroegindewey and Blohm leaves Hope vulnerable. Don’t be too hard on that pesky IMer you speak of, he was one of the more underrated and versatile swimmers to graduate in the last 5 years. He would have been valuable on any MIAA team he swam on in any of the 4 years he was in college.

      I look forward to your analysis,
      Sincerely,
      Commodore

      Can we get back to this question? I think it’s a great one and deserves some discussion.

    • #30358
      quacker
      Member

      Maybe Arce could help me out, but would the best MIAA triathlete be Hope’s Andrew Mullenix ’02? I know he’s got an Ironman or two under his belt.

      Arce or Mullenix?

    • #30359
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Alright, after another long break b/c I found nothing worth posting about I am quite curious about the “running away” with the 400 and 800 relays. Can I have some numbers, some break downs, perhaps a side by side comparison or even pie chart (this one will be tough but I would be interested how you presented your findings using a pie chart.)

      Thank you all for your time

      SwexasTim

    • #30360
      silentp
      Member

      I can’t do Calvin because i have no idea, but i can do Kalamazoo on these 2 relays, if someone could do Olivet for them. I don’t know very well on times, but will offer my best guesses, they are up for discussion (i also added the 200 FR):

      800 FR
      Dekker (1:45)
      Ben D. (1:48.0)
      Griener/Entwistle/Other (1:48.0)
      Hennigar (1:45)
      Projected time: 7:06, 4th place

      400 FR
      Ellis (46.00)
      Ben D. (47.5)
      Hennigar (46.5)
      Espinosa (45.50)
      Projected time: 3:05.5, 2nd place (maybe 3rd)

      200 FR
      Fonzi (21.00)
      Ben D. (21.0)
      Hennigar (21.0)
      Ellis (20.5)
      Projected time: 1:23.5, 2nd place (maybe 3rd)

    • #30361
      Alterego
      Member

      SilentP, you are predicting that the 200 Free Relay will break the school record by nearly 3/4 of a full second and then possibly only take 3rd at the MIAA meet? I could be wrong but I happen to think that a 1:23.5 could very well win it in February.

    • #30362
      silentp
      Member

      @Alterego wrote:

      SilentP, you are predicting that the 200 Free Relay will break the school record by nearly 3/4 of a full second and then possibly only take 3rd at the MIAA meet? I could be wrong but I happen to think that a 1:23.5 could very well win it in February.

      Good point… I will predict K wins the 200 FR, especially based on last year’s results of 1:24.2 in the race. You take off the best swimmer from that, and even given improvements by the others, i am not sure they’d go faster than 1:23-high, if that fast at all.

      The last relay i predicted to win was the 200 MR at the alumni meet, not the same, but oh well.

    • #30363
      Stevo
      Member

      The whole walk away with the 400 and 800 free relay is laughable. It seems like the last 3 years calvin has had these stud freestylers and every year they get stomped on at MIAA’s. Example last year Tuuk, Ress, Bagnall, boumgarden was suppose to be a racewith Hope… they went 3:09.5, they year before ress, tuuk, and both boumgarden’s 3:08.0, the year before tuuk, pbg, white, herrema, 3:08.2. Until i see Calvin’s free relays back up the talk just once they can’t make a prediction like “walk away with the relays”

      Hope:

      800 Free Relay

      CVB- 1:42
      Heyboer- 1:42
      Gardner- 1:44.5
      Nelis- 1:45.0
      6:53 (1st or 2nd)

      400 Free relay

      CVB- 46.0
      Heyboer- 46.5
      RVZ- 46.0
      Curti- 46.5
      3:05.0 (1st)

      200 Free Relay

      Curti- 21.1
      RVZ- 20.75
      Holton- 20.75
      CVB- 20.5
      1:23.1 (1st, Hope doesn’t lose this relay)

    • #30364
      Stevo
      Member

      which calvin relay would you rather have?

      Ress
      Tuuk
      J Boumgarden
      P. Boumgarden

      or

      Ress
      Tuuk
      J. Boumgarden
      Toll

      For either the 400 or the 800 i will take the first one. You are replacing one of the best clutch relay swimmers with a freshman. Granted Tuuk, Ress, and JBG will be better but sorry they will be a 3:08 one again this year.

    • #30365

      @Stevo wrote:

      You are replacing one of the best clutch relay swimmers with a freshman.

      Yes, I would rather have PBG than Toll. However, I don’t know if I consider PBG to be all that clutch.

      He came to D3 as a supposed BIG FISH in the SMALL POND and never did that much to impress. He put together some solid swims, yet always fell short of the high expectations in place when he arrived at Calvin.

    • #30366
      Stevo
      Member

      I didn’t really clarify, Peter was a clutch relay swimmer. He always seemed to have great relay swims at MIAA’s. I don’t disagree with your statements about big fish in small pond.

    • #30367
      SixBags
      Member

      Stiles, your comments don’t belong. You know Calvin has dominated on the tri scene and your attempt to make Hope look good was poor. For next year, the scoring goes as follows. Top 4 current or alum swimmers, 1 woman representative, and one representative older than 30. Add up their overall times. We could do some twists on how we score it, but thats up for discussion.

      My predictions for Calvin Tri, which could be up in the air depending on who shows.

      Brad White
      Ress
      Tuuk
      Bagnall
      Boumgarden

      Woman: Abby, Alex, or Becky

      Elder: DG or Bruce Los

      Calvin 800 free
      Tuuk-1:40-1:42 open
      JB-1:42
      Toll-1:42
      Ress-1:43

      400 Free
      Tuuk-46
      JB-45 split
      Ress-45 split
      Toll-46 split

      Both relays should be a body length ahead. Kzoo posted some fast times, don’t see them going that fast even with their incomers. Hope lost some fast sprinters, and maybe the officials will catch their jumps in time trials. Weren’t they a second and half faster at MIAA than Nats. I don’t think their 1:23.82 would’ve qualified them. Not to say that I haven’t jumped before, because I’ve been rung up I think twice in time trials.

    • #30368

      SixBags, you’ve made 3 posts and already proven you are absolutely clueless and possibly the most biased poster on the board.

      @SixBags wrote:

      Calvin 800 free
      Tuuk-1:40-1:42 open
      JB-1:42
      Toll-1:42
      Ress-1:43

      400 Free
      Tuuk-46
      JB-45 split
      Ress-45 split
      Toll-46 split

      All the times you list for the 800 Free Relay are 1.5 to 2 seconds faster than any of these guys were at leagues last year or personal bests for Toll. The splits you give for the 400 Free Relay are all about a second off for the returners, not to mention Toll’s best 100 I could find was a converted 49.6.

      If ONE of these four drops the time you suggest I think Calvin should be happy. I wouldn’t even be surprised if another Calvin frosh finds there way onto either of these relays. I think your best case scenario with the guys you list would be a 3:06.9 and a 6:55.9. The 800 Free is close to making Nationals, but will just miss out.

      SixBags, please reply to further discredit yourself.

      Love,
      Billy

    • #30369
      silentp
      Member

      @Billy Gilmore wrote:

      SixBags, you’ve made 3 posts and already proven you are absolutely clueless and possibly the most biased poster on the board.

      @SixBags wrote:

      Calvin 800 free
      Tuuk-1:40-1:42 open
      JB-1:42
      Toll-1:42
      Ress-1:43

      400 Free
      Tuuk-46
      JB-45 split
      Ress-45 split
      Toll-46 split

      All the times you list for the 800 Free Relay are 1.5 to 2 seconds faster than any of these guys were at leagues last year or personal bests for Toll. The splits you give for the 400 Free Relay are all about a second off for the returners, not to mention Toll’s best 100 I could find was a converted 49.6.

      If ONE of these four drops the time you suggest I think Calvin should be happy. I wouldn’t even be surprised if another Calvin frosh finds there way onto either of these relays. I think your best case scenario with the guys you list would be a 3:06.9 and a 6:55.9. The 800 Free is close to making Nationals, but will just miss out.

      SixBags, please reply to further discredit yourself.

      Love,
      Billy

      I am not going to defend Sixbags, but I will say, you might want to check out the splits in Hope’s projected 400 FR, you will see MAJOR time drops from those guys as well. Chas leading off in .6 faster than his best split of last year and .8 faster than the only flat start time he went sub 47 on. Heyboer dropping 1.4 seconds??? I’d have to say the same about those splits, but I won’t discredit Stevo, or you.

    • #30370
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Sixbags…nuts. Stevo knows what hes talking about but is still biased. He had pretty much the right times although a wrong name. Heyboer will most likely not make the 400 free relay since you have guys like Nelis and Rose who are already 46 relay swimmers. So both him and I may be biased but those times for Hope are way more legit than Calvins relays sent from God.

    • #30371
      stiles
      Member

      Now this is good stuff.

      I know this could be tough, but could someone put togehter relays of actual times from these swimers. I would make C’s relay: Ress/JB/Tuuk/Toll and Hope’s: CVB/RVZ/Rose/46.9 (Hope will have someone that can do that). Same for the 8 free and tack on a 1:45 for the mystery spot. That owuld be an interesting comparison and would take out some of the guess work.

      Also, SixBags, I made Hope look really good and was a great effort. In fact, you don’t even have to skew these numbers: In the 2006 REeds Lake Triathlon Hope Men’s Swimming beat Calvin Men’s swimming in teh 20-24 age group. Does that burn you? I hope so.

      Also, I may be asking for too much here, but i was wondering if someone could get real splits for K’s medleys? (not converted from LCM to SCY) Is that possible.?

    • #30372
      facenorth
      Member

      Alumni talking is always interesting to read.

      Guys, if you haven’t picked up on this yet I will try and dumb it down for everyone… you are always going to think people from your alma mater will drop more time than current swimmers on a rivals team. Period. That is why Stiles thinks Matt Rose will drop more time than John Toll and SixBags thinks the opposite.

      On a side note, I got a kick out of two things regarding the Reeds Lake Tri; 1) Stiles effort to skew the results to favor Hope as much as possible and 2) SixBags proposal for next year with the top 4 current or alum, one over 30 and a female. If that doesn’t favor Calvin (with DG and AbbyJ or others) I don’t know what does!

      Actual (meaning it really happened, none of this we took their open time and subtracted nonsense) times for Hope:
      CVB 46.78
      Nelis 47.09
      Rose 46.96
      Vogel 46.75
      Total: 3:07.58

      800 Free:
      CVB 1:42.66
      PH 1:44.9
      DG 1:45.0
      Vogel: 1:44.9
      Total: 6:57.4

      What I could find for Calvin, and I’m no expert:
      Ress: 47.09
      Toll: ?
      Tuuk: 46.85
      JBG: 46.78
      Total: 6.67 seconds over

      JBG: 1:44.6
      Ress: 1:45.5
      Toll: 1:44.19
      Tuuk: 1:42.7
      Total: 6:56.99

    • #30373
      facenorth
      Member

      Stiles,

      Actual SCY times for K from what I have found.

      Ellis: 50.77
      Fonzi: 57.91 (flat start in a regular meet)
      Groth: 53.41 (flat start MIAAs…you could also consider Entwistle, Griener, Dekker or one of their other two freshman flyers)
      Hennigar: 47.33 (flat start)
      Total: 3:29.42

    • #30374
      Stevo
      Member

      Bagnall

      You’re missing my point. I heard this same Calvin freestyle BS for the last five years. Yeah they have great times, have the EVER put it all together at the same time….NO. Give me a break, you talk a big game but back it up. As for the time trials, you probably are mad that you got DQ’ed twice, I would be too. We have beat that subject like a dead horse, we dont’ think we jumped and everyone else does…sweet. All i know is your posts are a joke. Let’s add up times from my senior years best freestyle times for the 400 FR. (all times from leagues minus PBG)

      Calvin.
      Tuuk-48.3
      Res- 47.81
      JBG- 47.40
      PBG- 46.0

      Total: 3:09.51

      Hope.
      Blohm- 45.83
      Heydlauff- 46.93
      Barkel-48.26
      Glas- 48.76

      Total: 3:09.78

      Actual MIAA final time:
      Calvin: 3:08.03
      Hope: 3:05.69

      Going into the race Calvin had the better freestylers and Hope got it done…and that’s without an IM’er. You have no credibility until something changes.

    • #30375
      maverick1
      Member

      barkel definitely had a lot more to gain with the relay start momentum than the calvin guys……i just thought that it was funny that that was one of the first things to come to mind when i was wondering how barkel and glas got the job done in the 400fr.

      i think that the free relays could be close, but i think that going south african style (athens 2004), by taking a big lead on the front of the relay and “running for your life” would be the only way to beat hope in the 400fr.

    • #30376
      Stevo
      Member

      SilentP for your ease of mind here is the difference between me predicting the drops and Bagnall. I am going to take the same relay and show the drops of each swimmer in comparison.

      Calvin.
      Tuuk-48.3 relay time 47.51 – .79 drop
      Res- 47.81 relay time 48.09 – .28 increase
      JBG- 47.40 relay time 46.78 – .62 drop
      PBG- 46.0 relay time 45.65 – .35 drop

      Average time drop .37 seconds (with leadoff)
      .59 seconds (witout leadoff)

      Total: 3:09.51

      Hope.
      Blohm- 45.83 relay time 45.86- .03 increase
      Heydlauff- 46.93 relay time 45.74 – 1.19 drop
      Barkel-48.26 relay time 46.70- 1.56 drop
      Glas- 48.76 relay time 47.39 – 1.37 drop

      Average time drop 1.02 seconds (with leadoff)
      1.37 seconds (without leadoff)

      Total: 3:09.78

      So for me to predict that Phil Heyboer drop 1.4 seconds is not unreasonable. Bagnall is a moron and I have facts to back up a prediction. It is still a biased one because we have no idea about these swimmers but history shows Hope gets up for relays. I can’t explain it but it’s true.

      ps…my boss is gone that is why i have the time to do this and i am enjoying it.

    • #30377
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      SilentP for your ease of mind here is the difference between me predicting the drops and Bagnall. I am going to take the same relay and show the drops of each swimmer in comparison.

      Hey now, i never tried to compare the 2 of you like that, i know your guys will drop and I am not saying what you put up isn’t possible (it’s more than possible), I was just refering to Billy Gilmore’s comments.

      As far as putting up “real” times, we can’t do that as easily since our DR swimmer hasn’t tapered or shaved in yards. We can use his unshaved, untapered times, but then we’d have to compare them to Hope’s Wheaton-times (although i believe they shave, but they are for sure not fully rested/tapered).

    • #30378

      P,

      I hadn’t looked at any of the assumed drops for the Hope guys because those times were in a thread from a long time ago that I can’t even remember.

      I just wanted to point out that SixBags’ predictions are completely biased and wrong. I know we’ve had the conversation a hundred times about who improves swimmers more and on and on, but the chances of Calvin having those big drops are about 1,000,000:1. DG is a nice guy and has done a fantastic job with his women’s team. However, Patnott’s a better coach, BAR NONE, and he will get more improvement out of his swimmers more consistently. Sorry SixBags, sometimes the truth hurts. You won’t win the free relays and you won’t have anybody at Nationals this year.

    • #30379
      T-Bone
      Member

      Thank you facenorth and stevo for making the two points I was going to comment on this morning but have not had time to (clearly I am the only one who does any actual work on Fridays πŸ˜‰ )

      @facenorth wrote:

      On a side note, I got a kick out of two things regarding the Reeds Lake Tri; 1) Stiles effort to skew the results to favor Hope as much as possible and 2) SixBags proposal for next year with the top 4 current or alum, one over 30 and a female. If that doesn’t favor Calvin (with DG and AbbyJ or others) I don’t know what does!

      I thought both attempts at claiming tri superiority were hilarious… Hope didn’t even have a woman representative at the tri (although I have seen Abby J where a Hope Swimming sweatshirt on multiple occasions, so maybe she should count for Hope) and does not have any over 30 alumni that they know of, clearly the numbers are “skewed” in advance.

      The other thing was stevo’s comment about Hope having a history of showing up for relays at the end of the year. I’m living proof and I know there are many more example- my best 100 breast relay split was a full second faster than my best open split and I have no good explanation for it… must be that “As 1” mentality of Hope Men’s Swimming.

      Anyway… keep the debate going, this is good stuff.

    • #30380

      My Dear Friends,

      As this casual conversation continues, one must beware of the different points each is arguing. While Stevo tries to make the point that Hope people get up for relays, BillyG is saying that on average the Hope men are experiencing more substantial drops. If I am not mistaken, SixBags is merely saying that on paper, right now, Calvin is in a marvelous position to challenge for the 400 Free Relay and WIN the 800 Free Relay. Based on actual times, that is factual. I cannot argue with him. If we are going to have three different arguments, perhaps 3 different threads are needed.

      Sincerely,
      Commodore

    • #30381
      miller
      Member

      I won’t take a side, but I’m sure enjoying this debate.

      I did want to throw something out there about relay superiority though.

      In my 4 years swimming and 7 years coaching at K, we were routinely trounced by Hope’s relays even when open swims suggested we shouldn’t have been.

      The question I pose is this: Is a guy that splits 45.9 on a relay but never breaks 48.0 in the 100 freestyle a great relay swimmer, or a horrible individual-event swimmer? It’s fashionable to call him a clutch relay swimmer…but where heck is that 45.9 speed in his individual event when the difference between 48.0 and 46.6 (if you give him the standard 0.7 for a relay start) is 10-12 points at MIAAs?

      To be honest, I still go with “clutch relay swimmer” myself…but man, if I had a swimmer routinely blowing up relays and then swimming poorly (by comparison) in individual events, I think I’d be nearly as annoyed as I was when my swimmers would blow up the individual events and then lose relays.

    • #30382
      Insight
      Member

      Miller, you bring up a great topic to debate. I, like you, am also enjoying this banter about the upcoming season. I suggest we leave the hyopothetical questions to the offseason, because we need stuff to talk abotu then and grasp onto the good hard relay talk that we haev right now!

      In that line of thinking, then, I think Calvin has a great chance to challenge for the relays IF there are drops from the likes of Toll. I would not be surprised if his butterfly improved but I would bet that his freestyle doesn’t drop significantly. This is nto a slam, this is an observation based on what I have seen as an MIAA swimmer.

    • #30383
      Stevo
      Member

      Miller, those are excellent points. I will use myself as an example.

      Open Best Times:
      50 Free: 21.11
      100 Free: 46.93

      Relay Best Times:
      50 Free: 20.21
      100 Free: 45.74

      It was really frustrating because I was trying just as hard in my individual events. What helped me was i didn’t have a great start and getting a relay pickup I had an opportunity to have a cleaner entry and break. I also enjoyed relays more because it wasn’t just me it was my teammates i was racing for. I never thought I swam poorly in my individuals because I improved every year but i saw more significant improvements on relays. Coach patnott probably got frustrated with me on individual swims but i loved the pressure of being on the end of a relay and hearing the crowd….the atmosphere fired me up.

    • #30384
      silentp
      Member

      I think Olivet is being overlooked in the debate of the 800 FR, they brought in some great swimmers and have the most depth of any team in the MIAA for this event. They also don’t have a question mark on the relay, like the other 2 relays do. Don’t forget, this relay can sometimes do better with people who aren’t in the event individually, because the 3rd time swimming the 200 free in a day can hurt, badly.

      My time “predictions” haven’t been the topic of much discussion? How come? Was i not reaching enough? I would say K has a very good shot of winning the 400 FR as well, especially with the potential of Ellis and Fonzi. We, however, do have a big question mark at this point, on that relay, which is Ben/Dekker/whoever. If we lead off with Ellis or Fonzi (whoever doesn’t swim the event individually, because I believe one of them will) and take the lead, then follow up with Hennigar to most likely keep that lead, but probably not extend it, depending on who he is racing, then i think we are in a very good position with Ellis/Fonzi still waiting to swim in either the 3 or 4 spot.

      Theoretically (although I don’t believe it will happen) Hope could not win a single event but win the meet. K did this in 2002 when we won by a lot (150 or so) and didn’t win a single relay, or really get close if i remember right. Should be fun.

    • #30385
      Stevo
      Member

      I will debate your relay times. You have a all freshman 200 Free Relay going 1:23.5. It’s fairly difficult to split 21.0 and the Ben D kid is a 22.1 in the open. Dropping more than a full second in a 50 is hard. If those are the guys on your relay they will go 1:24.5. Both K, Olivet, Calvin, and Hope have the potential to win the 400 Free relay on paper. So it will come down to how the guys have been swimming throughout the year. At this point it could go any direction. I will say Hope, P will say K, sixbags will say Calvin, and since no one here is from olivet some older alumni like cheadle will say maybe olivet.

      Hope will win events at leagues the winning time in the 400 IM was a 4:10 and Heyboer has already been 4:05 so there is one, either engers or heyboer will win the 200 Back, plus so many races up in the air 50 free, 100 free, 200 free, 200IM, both fly events, all have hope guys in contention. But there is a CHANCE they might not win an event but it’s the same chance as the Detroit Lions win the super bowl.

    • #30386
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Hope will win events at leagues the winning time in the 400 IM was a 4:10 and Heyboer has already been 4:05 so there is one, either engers or heyboer will win the 200 Back, plus so many races up in the air 50 free, 100 free, 200 free, 200IM, both fly events, all have hope guys in contention. But there is a CHANCE they might not win an event but it’s the same chance as the Detroit Lions win the super bowl.

      Oops, meant the hypothetical win the meet without winning relays. They will for sure win events.

    • #30387
      maverick1
      Member

      if ellis and heyboer both swim the 200back who will win……i mean it can’t be very hard for ellis to go a 53 or a 54 on the way out, but could he potentially bring it back? i say if ellis swims it, he win’s it easily just because he has so much more top end speed and that’ll carry him over heyboer

    • #30388
      SixBags
      Member

      I don’t think my times were out there at all. Ress has been dropping time significantly over the past 2 years. He’s still a pretty fresh face and has more time to drop with some improvement of his stroke. JB had some big time drops last year in the 100 and he can be clutch around taper time. Tuuk is a machine and will go ape nuts if need be. He just needs to taper right. DG needs to change his taper methods and these guys could be flying at Conference. Calvin always comes in with good times, but I admit we haven’t got it done at conference. Plus, I can put Becky in for John Toll and tell her to go whatever time I want. She just doesn’t have any comp. at DIII, so we’ve never seen her at her best until you put her in a close race. With her lactate times in practice, I would predict that she should be going a :46 open in the 100, is that a biased opinion?
      As for the tri, I’m just trying to broaden the field and get more athletes out there. Why aren’t more girls from the MIAA competing? Why not more coaches?

    • #30389
      Stevo
      Member

      Tuuk is a machine and will go ape nuts if need be

      this comment and the one before on the prediction for the 800 FR where you have Tuuk going 140-1:42. That range is the difference between Brian Slagh and Jeff Vroegindewey. Which one would you rather have? At this point every swimmer can improve. As for Becky if she doesn’t have the competition in D3 then why didn’t she go D1. If she swam a 46 split she would be the fastest split by a second an a half in the nation. The fastest womens split on the 400 FR at D1 nationals was Mary DeScenza onthe anchor leg for Georgia splitting 48.3. So that wouldn’t be much competition for her either so she might as well go Olympics. That is more than biased….that is pure stupidity. Girls lactate times are always faster than guys in practice, if you want the reason why ask Coach Patnott about it.

    • #30390
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Tuuk is a machine and will go ape nuts if need be

      this comment and the one before on the prediction for the 800 FR where you have Tuuk going 140-1:42. That range is the difference between Brian Slagh and Jeff Vroegindewey. Which one would you rather have? At this point every swimmer can improve. As for Becky if she doesn’t have the competition in D3 then why didn’t she go D1. If she swam a 46 split she would be the fastest split by a second an a half in the nation. The fastest womens split on the 400 FR at D1 nationals was Mary DeScenza onthe anchor leg for Georgia splitting 48.3. So that wouldn’t be much competition for her either so she might as well go Olympics. That is more than biased….that is pure stupidity. Girls lactate times are always faster than guys in practice, if you want the reason why ask Coach Patnott about it.

      I think he was joking about Becky, but not sure.

      I believe the reason for faster lactate times for women than men stems from the fact that …

      I’d like to highlight things said so far, so we can perhaps discuss them more and bring it back to these:

      Ellis could win the 200 back over Heyboer.

      K could win 4 out of 5 relays.

      Hope could sweep relays?

      The 400 FR will be a walk in the park to win for anyone?

      The 200 FR will be won by K for the first time since the Twins won their first World Series.

      Calvin won’t put any men into NCAAs.

    • #30391
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I attempted to show that Hope/relay’s is just myth. Like most myths, this one is proving hard to dispell. All I will say is that the data indicates that Hope does no better at dropping time than others. HOWEVER, they have a few notable swims that seem to stick out in people’s minds. Face it, Jeff Heydlauf dropping time is more noticable than Nick White.

      Anyhow, read the book moneyball. It is a statistical fact that from year to year, you cannot predict who a clutch hitter is going to be. In otherewords, there is no such thing.

    • #30392
      T-Bone
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      @Stevo wrote:

      Girls lactate times are always faster than guys in practice, if you want the reason why ask Coach Patnott about it.

      I believe the reason for faster lactate times for women than men stems from the fact that …

      P, is that what Coach Patnott told you when you asked him??

    • #30393
      Stevo
      Member

      I hope he was joking about Becky

      heyboer will beat ellis in a 200 Back, the top end speed doesn’t matter because if you are a sprinter the last 25 of the 200 you don’t bust out your speed you already used it on the first 125. Therefore Heyboer (distance trainer) will pour it on at the end for the win.

      K will have 4 very good relays in contention. Fiction to that statement

      Hope could sweet relays, I would say fiction as well, to many opportunities to slip a little. They will win the majority but i am not thinking all 5

      Whoever wins the 400 FR will win by more than half a second, that is what history has shown the past 3 years. The last real close race was 2003.

      FICTION- Hope has to many sprinters for this to be true

      Fact- calvin will not send anyone to NCAA’s

      Hope will win the 200 Free re

    • #30394
      silentp
      Member

      I’ll give my opinions to those highlights i spoke of in my posts for a K perspective.

      I think Ellis could take Heyboer out in the 200 back, but it would be a great race that would have to have an even line (not that anyone would EVER bet on college athletics, that is just wrong). It’s not about the speed but about his ability to split 25.2, 25.5 when he went the 50.7… if he can do that, you have to think he could go out in 53-high and bring it back in a 56-mid or so… i think he’ll be right about 1:50 if he swims it. I can use myself as an example if we need to prove it’s not about speed though πŸ™‚ not that i was near as good as these 2.

      K could win 4 out of 5 and it’d be awesome, but i think they will win 3, getting either the 400 FR or 200 FR… although i already predicted the 200 FR victory, i think their chances in the 2 might be the same.

      I think Hope’s chances of a sweep are actually less than K’s chances at 4. The medleies will be VERY tough for Hope to win with the front half of the K relays.

      I think the 400 FR walk in the park would go by definition. I agree with Stevo that it won’t be within half a second, but i do see the top 4 seperated by less than 3 seconds.

      I predicted the 200 FR victory by K so i will stand by my prediction… it will not be easy though, give Hope a lot of credit here, people can say what they want (and we have) about false starts in time trials, but in the race, whether is a great time or a slow one, they manage to touch the wall first and no one has said they false start in the real race.

      I think Calvin could put Toll in if he improves for an individual 200 fly performance, but that’d be it. The relays will be too fast, especially the 800 and the 400 FR could see Hope on the outside looking in. Their best shot might actually be the 400 medley.

    • #30395
      TheAnswer
      Member

      I think I have beef with all of you. Sometimes I wonder why I even waste my breath.

      SilentFau, we’ll start with you. Make up your mind. It’s obvious that you make a prediction, don’t believe it in but make it for arguments sake. Why? Hope has a better chance of qualifying 5 relays than not qualifying any. There, I said it — what?

      SexBags, another opinion is always welcomed and appreciated and while we all know you will have your own Knight bias, let’s be realistic. The difference between a 1:40 and a 1:42 is night and day. Not to mention, when people drop down to the 1:42 range, it’s not quite as easy to just shed another second or two like they did the previous couple years. Calvin has four guys and while on paper they are already the favorite in the 800 Free, it has to come together at the same time.

      Steve, why you so pissed off all the time man? We recognize that Hope gets up for relays. What happens when the other team is too good? You can’t bank on history in the present and while your old team has talent and a shitton of depth, it’s time to realize that Calvin, K and Olivet are all more talented than you would like to admit.

      T-Bag, feel free to mix it up a little bit.

      AJP, we’d love your opinion too, same with you, Facenorth. Nothing wrong with a little Assistant Coach action goin on in here is there?

      Stiles, think before you type, seriously. You may be a bright individual but it wouldn’t kill you to reread a post or two.

      Miller, your comments are always appreciated.

      Cheadle, you’re always one to stir some shit, where are you at with this whole thing?

      BillyG, I’m really at a loss for words with you right now.

      Commodore, you’re too old, quit pretending to be something you’re not.

      Maverick (probably a self appointed nickname), don’t just ask questions. Your K bias will help this debate escilate to the next level.

      Now if you want the answers to some of the questions you all have been talking about, I have them, read carefully:

      Heyboer would be favored over Ellis in the 200 back. Someone please show me any swim that Ellis has ever done over 100 yards.

      Kalamazoo is the favorite on both medleys right now. Stiles we know you want short course yards times to ‘skew’ to your own favor. Espinosa swam in a very basic meet and went 57.9. This gives me reason to believe that his LCM times that nearly match those of Boss’ prime give K something to be very excited about. They must find the *right* flyer and bring along one of those freshman freestyler if they want to hold off the charge of the Dutchmen. Why have we not even mentioned Olivet? So what if no one likes them, if they had even one alumni that came on here and thought like the rest of you all about your old teams they would be breaking records.

      Calvin is the favorite on the 800 Free Relay right now. Why? Because their whole times are faster. Tuuk is better at the 200, Toll is better at the 200, JBG is almost a wash from 100 to 200. I will say this though, Hope has more potential to drop though. Namely Heyboer based on the times listed. I’m not sure who said it, Silent P maybe, but Olivet is not someone to overlook in this relay.

      The 200 and 400 Free Relays Hope has to be favored. Again with the gray area with Espinosa, I understand that, mark down what you want but K’s #3 and 4 are both in the 22s. Hope has 3 21.4’s, a 21.5 and a freshman that split 21.1. Not to mention the possibility of someone coming out of nowhere. Options and depth make them the favorite in both relays. While I also believe the time Billy Gilmore found on Toll may be his best, it certainly does not reflect what he is capable of. I also happen to think that a freshman from GR Christian may be the 4th on this relay by the time February rolls around.

    • #30396
      SixBags
      Member

      Stevo, whoever you are needs to take a chill pill. Obviously there was a hint of sarcasm, but I wouldn’t put it past her to beat half the Hope men’s swim team in the 100 or 200 free. The reason I put Tuuk at 1:40-1:42 is that although he drops some good time at conference, I think he has the potential to break out with jaw dropper and go 1:40 high-1:41 low. As you can see, I’m not one to crunch numbers well.
      I will say, its nice to see Calvin mentioned on this forum, which was my whole point. I wanted some good reactions and I got them. Everyone has put Calvin men’s team off this year and I think they deserve some attention. I guess I’ll eat my words if they don’t show up at conference.
      Out

    • #30397
      T-Bone
      Member

      @SixBags wrote:

      Everyone has put Calvin men’s team off this year and I think they deserve some attention.

      The reason nobody is talking about Calvin as a team this year is because there’s not a lot to talk about. Yeah, they’ve brought in a couple of new studs and graduated a couple of old studs, but so has everyone else. Looking back at the last 4 years, they’ve finished an average of about 190 points behind Hope (or if you think I’m skewing the numbers like Stiles, look at the last 6 years, it’s about the same number). They’ll probably have a few standout individual swims and they’ll probably pull off a great 800 relay and destroy everybody else, but that seems to be the only relay they show up for. In the team standings of the MIAA, nothing is different than years past – they won’t be running with the big dogs this year.

    • #30398
      Stevo
      Member

      Sixbags….there is nothing really to be mad about, i just don’t really like you. Like tbone said Calvin won’t be running with the big dogs. If they were then we would talk about them more. I’m glad you got your chance to hear other people talk about your alma mater. They will be mediocre once again.

    • #30399
      Derek
      Member

      Stevo- chill out.

    • #30400
      SixBags
      Member

      t-bone. I agree we haven’t had the depth to hang with Hope at conference in years past, but we’ve made some duals into some interesting meets. The 800 free isn’t the only relay we contend for. We won the 200 medley in 2005, we came in a close second in the 200 fr in 2005, are 400 fr has always been a strong second, and then we’ve done well in the 800 free. I think you would agree, programs can change. No one thought Olivet would be where they were at. I think I’m safe to say that Hope was surprised to get spanked by Olivet at conference, even though they knew that it was going to be close. So Hope is not the only team that we should be talking about this year.

    • #30401
      silentp
      Member

      Since relays is the main discussion here and there is clearly depth at the relays, i jotted down the top in each relay:

      200 FR:
      1. K
      2. Hope (just out touched)
      3. Olivet
      4. Calvin

      Hope never loses this, but this is the year. The young K swimmers will be fired up and the lack of a Hope stud to get them into open water will be their demise in the end. Olivet will be closer than expected and will come close to breaking the 1:24 barrier.

      400 MR:
      1. K
      2. Hope
      3. Olivet

      Hope and Olivet don’t have a weak spots, but K has too much stud power up front. With Dekker at Fly (most likely) they will be unable to be caught by Hope and Olivet, as they jump in a few seconds behind. The anchor’s legs (most likely Hennigar) will be shaking but he should be able to hold on with the lead he has.

      200 MR:
      1. K
      2. Hope
      3. Olivet

      Olivet adds a sprinter, but doesn’t have the early firepower to pull this one out again. The fly leg will be interesting for K with up to 4 different possibilities, but the difference in the front 2 legs will be enough to carry this team to the win. This is the best shot at a conference relay record this year but will need a bit more to break that record.

      800 FR
      1. Calvin
      2. Hope
      3. Olivet
      4. Albion
      5. K

      Calvin always steps up for this really and with the talent they have, will do it again. Their mixture of experience and youth will help them to take this crown once again. Hope will challenge them to the end, but their 4th person is too much of a question mark right now. Olivet has the depth but their lack of a true stud keeps them from the top spot.

      400 FR
      1. K
      2. Hope
      3. Olivet
      4. Calvin

      Remember when K would continually win MIAAs but couldn’t sneak out a relay… that happens this year as a reverse, with Hope having the better team and K continuing to win relays. This time it’s the 1-2 punch and the stepping up of young swimmers that leads to a strong MIAA finish for K. It will be close, but a half a body length win and a stepping up for their 4th man will have K walking out in style.

    • #30402
      Rooster
      Member

      I believe my services may be needed here.

      SilentP is usually as unbiased as possible despite his ties to Kalamazoo. This post, however, was blatently biased. The relays will likely break down as follows…

      200 Free Relay:
      It’s Hope’s relay…again. Until someone is clearly better, and I mean way better on paper, it’s theirs. What is great about this relay this year is 4th place could be 1:24.5 or better.
      1. Hope (Kurti, VanderBroek, Rose, Vogelzang, Holton). Pick 4 and they win.
      2. Calvin. Weird isn’t it? Kurt VanAllsburg is the key here. Resseguie’s 21.5 out, Tuuk has already been 21.0, JBG 20.8 and VanAllsburg’s 21.3 add up to 1:24.6 with actual times.
      2. Olivet. Supposedly adds a 47.1 freestyler. To me that could mean anything from 21.2-21.7. Give him 21.4, Fetters 21.0, Aguirre 21.3, Powers 20.9. The only question mark is the leadoff, all other times have already happened. 1:24.6
      4. Kalamazoo. 21.9 open, 22.2 open, 20.8 relay, Espinosa. Equals ??? While some may say fear of the unknown is the reason for putting Kalamazoo here, I happen to think that they will run into 3 very talented teams ahead of them, nothing more. They would need a 20.+ leadoff from Espinosa to move them up to 2nd and a 20.mid for them to win it. This will be a great race to watch with no real favorite.

      400 Medley.
      1. Kalamazoo. Anywhere from 3:23.0-3:27.5. If the wheels come off they’ll be 3:27.5 and the next team would have to swim well to take the top spot away from them, could it happen? Yes, but not likely.
      2. Hope. Heyboer exposes too much on Olivet and Hope will be faster on the end. Not to mention they addressed their need on this relay, not with a stud like Meisner but with someone capable of not letting this relay get out of hand.
      3. Olivet. Faster than last year but not faster than 3:28.5 based on what we know now, still needing that first leg.
      4. Calvin. Front half will be too much to overcome.

      200 Medley.
      1. Kalamazoo. Stronger than the 400 Medley.
      2. Hope. Better shot at the 400 Medley.
      3. Olivet. Last year’s winner drops two spots while dropping time from last year’s winning time.
      4. Calvin.

      800 Free Relay.
      1. Hope. In an earlier post someone actually added up the times based on actual swims. Wow. They had Calvin winning and Hope second. I just don’t see it happening that way. For the past 6 years or so this has been Calvin’s relay that they get up for. Hope has too much firepower. Gardner appears to be the slowest leg. I would take him over any other 4th person on any other team in the league for this event. VanderBroek is the league’s best 200 freestyler (sorry Peregrine). WIth the strongest leg and the strongest weakest leg, I have to put Hope first.
      2. Calvin. Will challenge Hope to the very end. This will be one exciting relay from a spectator standpoint and I will be looking forward to it. The addition of Toll makes Calvin an immediate contender. Resseguie, the strength of the other two free relays is the question mark, if he develops his 200 this year the way his other two events have come along the past couple years (and this is very possible) then Calvin wins the relay. If not, it’s Hope’s to lose.
      3. Olivet. Some people are ruling the Comets out of this one. They shouldn’t. Depth will be the key for them here but the lack of a stud as SilentP addressed will the their downfall.

      400 Free.
      1. Hope. 3:05 wins it easily and Hope will be there. This may have been the easiest relay to pick in my opinion. Both the 200 Free and 800 Free are up in the air, the 800 Free especially. The medley’s could be very tight despite the potential K has.
      2. Calvin. Running into a little bit more depth and options. They can now pick between Toll and VanAllsburg for their 4th leg. Probably VanAllsburg because of the 200 Fly right before this relay. Boumgarden was the runner up in the 100 last year and Ress was .05 behind him. Enough at the top to challenge here.
      3. Kalamazoo. 46.1 from Ellis. 47.3 open from Hennigar. Espinosa should be 46 on a relay. Dmitruk makes it tricky at this point to pick the Hornets any higher.
      4. Olivet. 47.1 and Powers 46.7 give them enough to make a decent run at a much higher finish. But what the Comets fail to realize is that they are a depth team. They don’t have the stud power of the other teams and will only finish as high as they do in overall standings because of this depth.

    • #30403
      silentp
      Member

      Yeah, mine were biased, but I think everyone also sees the potential for it to come true based on the possibe improvements by our 2 freshmen “sensations”. Also, I think Ben will have a break out year, so that contributed to my predictions, bias as that is.

      I wanted to toss out some times for the medlies, since the free relays had been done.

      200 MR:
      Ellis: 23.2 (best now, 23.5)
      Fonzi: 24.8 (no best time, but better 50 breast than 100 is the word)
      Greiner: 22.9 (no clue on best time either)
      Ben: 21.0 (been 22.2 flat start, drops half a second or so plus your relay start difference)
      Total: 1:31.9, add a couple tenth for the hundredths and you have right around 1:32.2… the record is 1:32.88, so maybe it could go?

      400 MR:
      Ellis: 50.0 (best now is 50.7)
      Fonzi: 55.5 (best now is converted 56.0 or .1)
      Dekker: 51.5 (been 54.1 at 17, appears to be a non-taper meet, was out in 54 for the 2fly)
      Hennigar: 46.5 (been 47.3, take off for relay start)
      Total: 3:23.5, give some tenth and hundredths and we should see a sub 3:24… key word should.

    • #30404
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I don’t know how anyone cannot pick Hope to win the 200 Free Relay at this point. Until we see some 50 swims from Fonzi, it is just speculation. I would be surpised if Hope is over 1:23.99 and surprised if Kzoo is under

    • #30405
      miller
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      I don’t know how anyone cannot pick Hope to win the 200 Free Relay at this point. Until we see some 50 swims from Fonzi, it is just speculation. I would be surpised if Hope is over 1:23.99 and surprised if Kzoo is under

      It would be a nice surprise to see K under 1:23.99…but I agree with Cheadle here. Hope is the odds-on favorite in the 200 free relay until someone proves otherwise.

    • #30406
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I should say “Pleased” instead of “surprised” with Kzoo going a 1:23. I can see the guys coming together and pulling it off.

    • #30407
      stiles
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      Stevo- chill out.

      Thank you Moderator Jansen.

    • #30408
      stiles
      Member

      A few things:

      1. If I were making relay predictions I would look at two things. First, the make up of the teams. Second, history. K seems to have a huge advantage in the Medleys but Hope and the OC will be close. You can crunch the numbers all day but things will get clear up after those first two meets. As far as history goes, look back at the relay champs and tell me when the last time hope won 2 or fewer of the 5 relays. Let me know what you come up with.

      2. Mr. Answer, my apologies, I will do better in reading other posts before I post. I would also ask you to squash any urge to encourage AJP to post. Thank you.

    • #30409
      silentp
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      A few things:

      1. If I were making relay predictions I would look at two things. First, the make up of the teams. Second, history. K seems to have a huge advantage in the Medleys but Hope and the OC will be close. You can crunch the numbers all day but things will get clear up after those first two meets. As far as history goes, look back at the relay champs and tell me when the last time hope won 2 or fewer of the 5 relays. Let me know what you come up with.

      Just a clarification, a few constitutes 3 or more, you gave 2 points, so try using “A couple things:”

      Anyway, moving right along, while Hope probably will win 2 relays and are certainly favored in 2, history is meaningless. In college athletics, where teams are different every year, traditions can carry on, but the second you begin to bank on that tradition and feel as though you are somehow entitled to something (like winning relays, sending guys to NCAAs), bad things happen. As Coach Steen said on Cold Pizza, you can’t look at the past but have to take each season as something new. I am not saying Hope’s history of stepping up in relays, but if history is the ultimate end all, be all in swimming, Nelis will be unable to make big strides in butterfly (Hope has NEVER had a great flyer) and Heyboer won’t put together a great 400 IM. Since I don’t think those 2 things are true, I won’t use history to predict the future, at least for college swimming.

    • #30410
      miller
      Member

      P,
      History is completely meaningless in college athletics most of the time. There are a few exceptions to the rule, one of which is this: A coach who excels at training athletes of Type X (be that freestyle sprinters from Hope or linebackers from Penn State) will likely continue to excel at that sort of training.

      That is the reason (in my estimation) that Hope has traditionally done better in the 200 free relay while Kalamazoo (in the Bob Kent era) traditionally excelled in the 200s of stroke events.

      Coaches change, and Milliken means that Kzoo is no longer sprint-challenged. Hope is still good, so they’re still the favorite on this one…but Kzoo has a solid chance to dethrone them.

    • #30411
      silentp
      Member

      As an interesting side note, when Carlos took the job as assistant coach a couple years ago he told Kathy he remembered Kalamazoo as good at diving and sprinting. I thought that was weird, but now back to the discussion.

    • #30412
      miller
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      As an interesting side note, when Carlos took the job as assistant coach a couple years ago he told Kathy he remembered Kalamazoo as good at diving and sprinting. I thought that was weird, but now back to the discussion.

      Yeah, but he was insane.

    • #30413
      Gargamel
      Member

      In response to SilentP’s comments about Nelis and Heyboer I choose to respond this way:

      The best butterflyer Hope has ever brought in prior to Nelis’ arrival was a young man by the name of Tommy Yamaoka. Now if any of you have heard this name before it is likely because he is the best golfer in the MIAA at the present time and has never suited up for a swim meet. Hope hasn’t ever had a great butterflyer because they haven’t brought in a solid flyer. Nelis looks to change that (I haven’t actually asked him that so I kind of made it up). If you look at guys on their top ten times list (and the 100 fly is weak, I will not refute that), it’s an impressive list considering where they came from. The school recordholder was a 55.8 in high school. His older brother a 55.mid. Lippert a converted sprinter, Knapp a distance guy that swam the event by default. Vroegindewey a 1:00 in high school. Hoesch, a 55+ in high school, Hamstra a sprinter turned flyer by default, Dattels split 50. on a medley without ever swimming the 100 fly rested in the event itself. While many of you will fault Patnott for not recruiting a top flyer, the point remains that he has done extremely well with what he has had on the roster. For that reason, I am inclined to think that Nelis will fare pretty well in the 100 fly at Hope.

      It’s funny because when Boss and VandenBerg were swimming at Hope, Patnott was a breaststroke Coach and probably the best one around. Why? Because he had talented breaststrokers on his roster. Since then he’s done a nice job with sprinters and has been referred to more than once as more of a sprinting coach. Why? Because he’s been blessed with some talented sprinters…DeHaan, Blohm and others. He was probably a decent 400 IM coach when Bannink and Knapp were swimming some 12-14 years ago. Too bad for Phil Heyboer he’s a sprinting coach now. Hanky.

    • #30414
      silentp
      Member

      @Gargamel wrote:

      In response to SilentP’s comments about Nelis and Heyboer I choose to respond this way:

      The best butterflyer Hope has ever brought in prior to Nelis’ arrival was a young man by the name of Tommy Yamaoka. Now if any of you have heard this name before it is likely because he is the best golfer in the MIAA at the present time and has never suited up for a swim meet. Hope hasn’t ever had a great butterflyer because they haven’t brought in a solid flyer. Nelis looks to change that (I haven’t actually asked him that so I kind of made it up). If you look at guys on their top ten times list (and the 100 fly is weak, I will not refute that), it’s an impressive list considering where they came from. The school recordholder was a 55.8 in high school. His older brother a 55.mid. Lippert a converted sprinter, Knapp a distance guy that swam the event by default. Vroegindewey a 1:00 in high school. Hoesch, a 55+ in high school, Hamstra a sprinter turned flyer by default, Dattels split 50. on a medley without ever swimming the 100 fly rested in the event itself. While many of you will fault Patnott for not recruiting a top flyer, the point remains that he has done extremely well with what he has had on the roster. For that reason, I am inclined to think that Nelis will fare pretty well in the 100 fly at Hope.

      It’s funny because when Boss and VandenBerg were swimming at Hope, Patnott was a breaststroke Coach and probably the best one around. Why? Because he had talented breaststrokers on his roster. Since then he’s done a nice job with sprinters and has been referred to more than once as more of a sprinting coach. Why? Because he’s been blessed with some talented sprinters…DeHaan, Blohm and others. He was probably a decent 400 IM coach when Bannink and Knapp were swimming some 12-14 years ago. Too bad for Phil Heyboer he’s a sprinting coach now. Hanky.

      Actually Tommy is the 4th best MIAA golfer right now, 2nd best on his team. But i think your comments, while attempting to prove my point wrong, actually proved my point quite nicely, so thank you.

    • #30415
      facenorth
      Member

      P,

      What was your point exactly? Just curious. It sounds like you won’t use history to predict anything in the future. Kathy has done a nice job at Kalamazoo, I have to think that her success with people like Bobby Dekker influence your opinion of how fast you think Ellis and Espinosa will be or am I comparing two entirely different things right now? You can’t have your cake and eat it too.

      Tommy was the MIAA medalist in 2004, his freshman year. I think he finished 2nd last year to the kid at Tri State, who is also still around this year. While Gargamel’s comment about him being the best golfer at the ‘present’ time may be incorrect, he’s still a damn good one.

    • #30416
      silentp
      Member

      My point was that you can use history as somewhat of an indicator, but for things like winning relays, or not having fast butterfliers, it doesn’t mean it will always be the case.

    • #30417
      Stevo
      Member

      silentp wrote:

      My point was that you can use history as somewhat of an indicator, but for things like winning relays, or not having fast butterfliers, it doesn’t mean it will always be the case.

      History is a big part of what might happen, if you have the talent (like hope does this year) to back it up. Meaning we aren’t just saying Hope will win relays just because of history. They have a hell of a lot of talent in all the relays and you can make an argument for them to win any of the five relays. That is where we look at the history and see how hope has had success with relays and then we make our points.

    • #30418
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      They have a hell of a lot of talent in all the relays and you can make an argument for them to win any of the five relays. That is where we look at the history and see how hope has had success with relays and then we make our points.

      I agree they have talent, but can you make an arguement for the medley relays? I could see possibly the 400 MR, but I really can’t see the 200 MR, although I am open minded and would consider changing my opinion (from very small chance to somewhat of a chance).

    • #30419
      stiles
      Member

      The initial agrument for using history as an indicator was that hope has won at least 3 of the 5 relays over the past 10+ years (I don’t knwo, I didn’t look it up). I used that to say, chances are, this year they will do it again.

      SilentP, it looks like you are saying there is some crednace to using history as a measure stick when predciting relays. is that what I am reading?

      And jsut because you are the favorites in the medleys does mean that you are going to have sweet free relays too. YOu need freestylers for that.

    • #30420
      silentp
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      And jsut because you are the favorites in the medleys does mean that you are going to have sweet free relays too.

      Sweet!

    • #30421
      Stevo
      Member

      Stiles you must have forgot Espniosa and Ellis are the best thing to happen since sliced bread. Could you imagine how fast K’s relays would be if they could both swim twice!

    • #30422
      T-Bone
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      And jsut because you are the favorites in the medleys does mean that you are going to have sweet free relays too.

      I think you’re wrong. I would say that being the favorites in the medley’s does NOT mean that you are going to have sweet free relays too.

      …. Stiles you idiot, proof-read your damn posts once in awhile.

    • #30423
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Stile is more or less correct:

      In 1997, Hope only won 2 relays

      That is the last time they haven’t won atleast 3.

      Stevo, your posts have turned from you providing your keen insight of being an elite swimmer to sarcastic cocca-mami. I wish you would drop the chip off your shoulder.

      Gargamel: If you look at Hope’s top 10 list for fly, you will notice that a lot of those swims were performed as underclassmen (One was even a freshmen). Take that for what you will. If it makes you feel better, Kzoo’s failures in the sprints are equally unimpressive.

    • #30424
      Stevo
      Member

      what do I have a chip on my shoulder about? All I am trying to do with my post is give my opinion on different subject. Yes I tend to be sarcastic at times and you might not always like what i say but that really doesn’t matter to me. I support Hope swimming and I think they will have a great season. Whether they win all the relays or score the most points at nationals or win MIAA’s my life will go on. I like topics like this where we all have our certain points and are all pulling for our specific teams. If you don’t agree with my posts that’s fine, i’m not asking you to do that, just know I went to Hope. K and Calvin were my biggest rivals and I don’t have to proofread my posts to make sure I didn’t say anything that might offend guys on this forum.

    • #30425
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      what do I have a chip on my shoulder about? All I am trying to do with my post is give my opinion on different subject. Yes I tend to be sarcastic at times and you might not always like what i say but that really doesn’t matter to me. I support Hope swimming and I think they will have a great season. Whether they win all the relays or score the most points at nationals or win MIAA’s my life will go on. I like topics like this where we all have our certain points and are all pulling for our specific teams. If you don’t agree with my posts that’s fine, i’m not asking you to do that, just know I went to Hope. K and Calvin were my biggest rivals and I don’t have to proofread my posts to make sure I didn’t say anything that might offend guys on this forum.

      I understand where you are coming from but it would be nice if more people backed up what they are saying with examples or reasons, rather than just because I say so.

      For instance, you point out (at least this is how I read it) that Espinosa and Ellis aren’t that good, or at least overrated. While they have yet to prove anything on the college level, they come in with as high of or higher level credentials than any freshman to step onto an MIAA campus as a freshman ever has, especially in their individual best events.

      Also, remember that they are both VERY skilled freestylers (in addition to a 47.3 freestyler), so saying we need freestylers to compete on the free relays is a bit misleading. Carlos Vega (our assistant coach for a couple years and Kenyon grad) certainly wasn’t a freestyler, in fact it was his 3rd best stroke, but in his prime he could outsplit anyone here in their prime in a 100 free.

    • #30426
      Stevo
      Member

      Every post that i have had on this thread has been backed up with facts. As for espinosa and ellis they are both incredibly talented swimmers and you guys have reason to be excited about them BUT it is still only two guys. Your reply has more to do with Stiles post than mine. I am sure these guys are great, and they will do well but i think stiles was saying that relays take 4 guys not two and the other two guys on your free relays are not proven like espinosa and ellis. You have an all freshman relay from K going 1:23.5, that is .01 off a relay of Brian Slagh, Tim Dehaan, Chris Hamstra, and me along for a ride when i was a freshman that holds the MIAA record. As exciting as it is to have fast guys it has gotten a little out of hand. Hennigar added time is senior year if history is any indication of him then he has already peaked. Not once did i say those guys are overrated i just happen to be more excited about Heyboer, Vanderbroek, Gardner, Waterstone than Ellis and Espinosa.

    • #30427
      maverick1
      Member

      alright folks…..when hope revealed that they had heyboer, this forum went crazy over him…..when k revealed that they had ellis, this forum went crazy over him.

      this is good, we’re posting, and i’m much less bored because of it. it’s also good that we’ve added a calvin alumn who likes to post on behalf of basically the whole calvin group….this will lead to more discussion and more for us to argue about, yay!

      it will be interesting to see how kathy deals with the additions of ellis, fonzi, hennigar and ben d. The latter two have a chance to be on some of the best relays in the miaa and potentially in the country, depending on their abilities to swim fly and the abilities of all 4 of them in a 50/100 free. if i were the coach of this group, i’d continue to train ellis and fonzi as 100 backstroker and 100 breaststroker, they could win nats in both events and they’ll help make huge medleys. the other two i would take and train completely as relay swimmers….even if ben looks like he might have potential in the 200 free, i’d get both of them to be saavy 50/100 flyers and 50/100 freestylers with a regiment built around “getting up” for shorter swims at duals and at practice.

      hope has it a little easier in this category, we know that they know how to “get up” for their relays (this is an instance where history can be used). so what do you do with the guys from hope…..personally i’d train CVB as a 100/200 guy, i think he could be the most prolific 200 freestyler ever from the miaa on the national level (where did that 1:42 come from at nats?), he’ll be there for the 200 free relay, but won’t split any better thatn 20.8, which will be good enough. holton, glas and rvz would be my guys training for that 200 free relay…they’ve all had good 50’s, if they all did at the same time, then the relay would be very good…..glas and rvz can handle the 100 also very well. the tough guys would be waterstone, heyboer and kurti (sp?)…..waterstone had a breakthrough season his sophomore and junior years, he’ll need to step it up again if he wants to make nats because it just gets harder and harder to drop time. with heyboer do you try to give him some more speed? i wouldn’t, because i think he could pull out some nice freestyle times with his talent alone and he could place very high in the 200im/200 back with small improvements at nationals. kurti is going to be the interesting one….he’s fast, 21.4 right? whatever blohm did between his soph and junior years or during his junior year is what this guy should be doing…..he’s got a chance to do very well, especially with the team around him. here’s a big question mark…dan garnder. the kid is pretty damn tough when at the front of a race, but it seemed like krone going crazy just put him so far out of his comfort zone that he didn’t know what to do. train this kid to swim the 200 free and the mile. it’s tough but he has an opportunity to race with a very fast 800 free relay (he was 1:45.1 in high school yes, and this is still he PR right?) and he’s got some talent in the mile. forget about 500 pace until miaa prep and focus on the 200/1650.

      calvin, in my mind, should take the washu approach. these boys need to race. JBG does a nice job of showing up to compete, but i think it’s ress that’s been holding them back….the kid is skinny, tall and needs a haircut most of the time. the problem is that he keeps splitting 1:47 in the 800 free relay, which is good enough for a handshake award. i’d personally train the hell out of the kid in the season so when he tapers he feels like gold in the water (such a good book). jbg and tuuk usually come prepared at miaas and i’d expect them to show up once again, i think tuuk should think about that 100 free a little more, a 1:43 200 and a 48 mid 100 are nice but it would be nice to be a 1:42 and a 46. i have no idea about toll, but this guy seems to be good at the 200’s so he may need to add in some speed to help his team, can this guy do backstroke?

      olivet, albion, alma…..olivet needs to let meisner loose on the miaa. the kid has thrown down some great 200 breaststrokes, but this guy should be 56 high in the 100 and just hasn’t done it yet, he has an opportunity to place very high at nationals. albion will be the krone and bacon show, maybe they brought someone else in, but bacon is a b-cut 100flyer and krone is going to get close, if not, breat some miaa records this year. bacon needs to take a look at what events he’s swimming and train accordingly, the 100fly and 200 free double last year didn’t work well. and as far as alma goes, i hope the new coach can play the bagpipes.

    • #30428
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      what do I have a chip on my shoulder about? All I am trying to do with my post is give my opinion on different subject. Yes I tend to be sarcastic at times and you might not always like what i say but that really doesn’t matter to me.

      If it doesn’t matter to you, you wouldn’t bother responding. Every human being wants to be liked. You’re just like everyone else.

      Giving opinions is one thing, writing “I just don’t like you,” to sixbags is quite annother. It is immature and is reflective of your general tone and attitude lately. You may recall that you accidentaly called me a silly name because you were to blinded by your anti-K sentiment to see that I was supporting you.

      If your comments about Ellis and Fnozi are no deeper than “Oh I forgot they are the best thing since sliced bread” then that is fine. But I really thought you would have more to offer than that. And I for one am interested in what you have to say, unless it is more of that crap.

    • #30429

      @Maverick wrote:

      it will be interesting to see how kathy deals with the additions of ellis, fonzi, hennigar and ben d. The latter two have a chance to be on some of the best relays in the miaa and potentially in the country, depending on their abilities to swim fly and the abilities of all 4 of them in a 50/100 free. if i were the coach of this group, i’d continue to train ellis and fonzi as 100 backstroker and 100 breaststroker, they could win nats in both events and they’ll help make huge medleys. the other two i would take and train completely as relay swimmers….even if ben looks like he might have potential in the 200 free, i’d get both of them to be saavy 50/100 flyers and 50/100 freestylers with a regiment built around “getting up” for shorter swims at duals and at practice.

      hope has it a little easier in this category, we know that they know how to “get up” for their relays (this is an instance where history can be used). so what do you do with the guys from hope…..personally i’d train CVB as a 100/200 guy, i think he could be the most prolific 200 freestyler ever from the miaa on the national level (where did that 1:42 come from at nats?), he’ll be there for the 200 free relay, but won’t split any better thatn 20.8, which will be good enough. holton, glas and rvz would be my guys training for that 200 free relay…they’ve all had good 50’s, if they all did at the same time, then the relay would be very good…..glas and rvz can handle the 100 also very well. the tough guys would be waterstone, heyboer and kurti (sp?)…..waterstone had a breakthrough season his sophomore and junior years, he’ll need to step it up again if he wants to make nats because it just gets harder and harder to drop time. with heyboer do you try to give him some more speed? i wouldn’t, because i think he could pull out some nice freestyle times with his talent alone and he could place very high in the 200im/200 back with small improvements at nationals. kurti is going to be the interesting one….he’s fast, 21.4 right? whatever blohm did between his soph and junior years or during his junior year is what this guy should be doing…..he’s got a chance to do very well, especially with the team around him. here’s a big question mark…dan garnder. the kid is pretty damn tough when at the front of a race, but it seemed like krone going crazy just put him so far out of his comfort zone that he didn’t know what to do. train this kid to swim the 200 free and the mile. it’s tough but he has an opportunity to race with a very fast 800 free relay (he was 1:45.1 in high school yes, and this is still he PR right?) and he’s got some talent in the mile. forget about 500 pace until miaa prep and focus on the 200/1650.

      It’s just weird to me that you said the decisions were easier for Hope and then spent twice as long explaining how Hope’s guys should be trained.

      Cheadle, you’re right. Stevo really does want to be loved. He just doesn’t know how to express his need.

    • #30430
      silentp
      Member

      I would agree with the Hope training, but for K, i would do things a bit differently. I would let Ben basically go all out for the 50 but then “move up” to swim the 100 and basically be your relay guy to add to the 200 FR and 200 MR. WIth Hennigar, since he comes in as the 4th fastest returner for the 100 free, i’d train him specifically for that and let him move around to swim the 50 and 200. Training for the 50 is a lot like the 100, but i’d work more starts and explosion for my 50 guy.

      Funny to think that as it stands for the top 6 100 guys Calvin probably has 2 (JBG, Ress), Hope has 1 for sure (Vanderbroek) and K might have 3 (Ellis, Fonzi, and Hennigar), although it seems unlikely they’d all swim it. Despite that, Hope would still be the favorite for the 400 FR, that’s depth.

    • #30431
      superDope
      Member

      I’m glad this topic has turned into how much Hope rules. It’s so true. I mean without us, this website would never exist. Thankfully you’ve all recognized this and have stopped bickering about whether or not you can beat us at leagues this year. It’s over. Calvin sucks. My man stevo needs to chill out but he’s right to be hatin’ on bagnall for no reason. And why is anyone yelling at stiles. He’s just telling it like it is.

      Anywho, I, for one, humbly welcome our new Hope overlords to the d3 forums.

      Carry on!

    • #30432
      Churchill
      Member

      We shall fight on the beaches. We shall fight on the landing grounds. We shall fight in the fields, and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender!

    • #30433
      Gargamel
      Member

      DonC (kinda like Donzi but not – ok sorry), you make an interesting point about Hope’s 100 Fly top 10 list. Maybe you could answer some of my questions because there aren’t a lot of older guys that post on here from Hope and the older guys I know well or see on occasion aren’t really that old. Meaning they didn’t swim in the early/mid 90s. 3 of the top 10 happened the athletes senior year, three more in junior years. Two each both as sophs and froshies. Why? I’m not sure, when I looked at it a little bit closer I discovered that Zupancic only swam the 100 fly rested his fresh and jr year…he swam the 400 IM as a soph and senior. Dan Knapp was also MIAA champ in the 400 IM his senior year after posting his 100 fly mark as a junior. Perhaps that is also more of an explanation. It would be like faulting Matt Waterstone for never improving his 200 back top 10 time because he never swam it shaved and tapered after his soph year. Another underclassman on the list is still active. I have no idea about Hescott and Hoffman though. Do you? I suppose it’s possible that Chopper could have swum the 200 Free at MIAAs his junior and sr years but I am not sure. His best 50 and 100 are both from March of his senior year. Hoffman on the other hand, I am unsure about.

      Stevo, any insights on the new Jackass movie? You jackass.

    • #30434
      maverick1
      Member

      billy,

      hope just has more guys who in my mind have a chance to gain a spot on their top relays. that’s why it’s longer……i don’t believe that albion, olivet or alma will have any good relays so they didn’t have much written about them.

      comprende ese?

    • #30435
      BillyBaroo
      Member

      Wow this has been fun to read so far. I think that all of us have valid points that should be taken into consideration. Hope loves Hope, K loves K, and Calvin loves being Calvin. As it is the last week before pracitce I think there are still some things to consider. How many of these students will actually stay and swim again nex year. I am sure there is a good chance of some of the swimmers that are planning on swimming this year might not make it the complete 4 years too many examples to list. All these guys are good now(the four or so from Hope and the handfull from K and a couple from calvin), but where is the props to the guys that come out of the woodwork, ie for hope Lenny, Bslagh, Donnie and just blow up. I am sure K has a lot of the same with thier swimming program and calvin too.

      I truly wonder if it is just talk from Alumni, or the current swimmers actually read this. It will be a fun year to watch as a swimming fan as we might actually have a decent MIAA this year. Bring on the Heat!

    • #30436
      robertbruce
      Member

      Cheers… as a current swimmer, I can say that this is my lifeblood while abroad. Speaking from that standpoint… Churchill, piss off, you’re a drunk wanker and no better than the rest of us. Ya know shite about swimming and that’s alright… you know slightly more about winning a war, and that’s alright too. Steveo, it’s alright wantin to be loved… that’s where we all are mate, don’t worry about it at all. I (hope) you find what you’re looking for before too long. Now, since I have nothing more to say than K will do well, Hope will do well, Calvin and Albion will do alright, and who the crap knows about Olivet… I shan’t be sayin’ anything more at all about that. Hope y’all pull tonight, an’ I’ll be back quick as a flash, afore y’all can see that I’m gone. Cheers again.

    • #30437
      Chris Sabo
      Member

      @robertbruce wrote:

      Churchill, piss off, you’re a drunk wanker and no better than the rest of us. Ya know shite about swimming and that’s alright… you know slightly more about winning a war, and that’s alright too. Steveo, it’s alright wantin to be loved… that’s where we all are mate, don’t worry about it at all. I (hope) you find what you’re looking for before too long.

      This is cracking my shit up. I wish I could see Stevo as he reads this.

    • #30438
      Stevo
      Member

      This is cracking my shit up. I wish I could see Stevo as he reads this.

      It’s pretty anti-climactic even though it is making me laugh. Can we all get together and sing Kumbaya?

    • #30439
      silentp
      Member

      @BillyBaroo wrote:

      Wow this has been fun to read so far. I think that all of us have valid points that should be taken into consideration. Hope loves Hope, K loves K, and Calvin loves being Calvin. As it is the last week before pracitce I think there are still some things to consider. How many of these students will actually stay and swim again nex year. I am sure there is a good chance of some of the swimmers that are planning on swimming this year might not make it the complete 4 years too many examples to list. All these guys are good now(the four or so from Hope and the handfull from K and a couple from calvin), but where is the props to the guys that come out of the woodwork, ie for hope Lenny, Bslagh, Donnie and just blow up. I am sure K has a lot of the same with thier swimming program and calvin too.

      I truly wonder if it is just talk from Alumni, or the current swimmers actually read this. It will be a fun year to watch as a swimming fan as we might actually have a decent MIAA this year. Bring on the Heat!

      This is a good point, although we could never exhaust our predictions, perhaps we could find guys who we think are going to have breakout freshmen years. While we will all think all of our freshmen could bust out this year, I will pick 3 from Kzoo who i most believe will really stand out and turn some heads:

      Julio, miler: Most swimmers in high school don’t get to train for the 1650 year round and even if they are members of great clubs teams, the atmosphere at their taper meets are not as electric and therefore they don’t have the time drops in the 1650 until college. I believe this will be the case for Julio who comes in with around a 16:45, but in my mind could challenge for the 2nd spot at MIAAs and get the B cut. The place where it was decided that history can be used is where i will use it here: K has a history of freshmen milers coming in and doing very well at MIAAs (a few wins in a row in fact). New coach, but perhaps the same results?

      Greiner, flyer: I normally won’t take sickness into consideration, but the kid had an IV in his body the week of state meet, so i will let his subpar performance slide… a little. He was a 54-mid to low flyer his junior year and was dropping lots of time off junior season’s in-season times, with his times senior year. Basing off this momentum and his desire to see success off of a season of hard work, plus his steady improvements, pay off, i think he will throw down a 52-low to 51-high at MIAAs this year. This could turn some heads especially if he sneaks into finals with Ellis.

      Ben, sprinter: He has approximately the same times coming in as Kurtz did, who dropped lots of time sprinting his freshmen year. Also, Plainwell kids have typically shown large improvements when moving to the college scene and our last Plainwell team member was an individual NCAA qualifier as a freshman. I think he will drop a great amount in the 50 with Kathy’s new sprint workouts and see a 21-mid at MIAAs. This will put him borderline to be top 6, which would really make some noise. I also see him splitting a 20. on either the 200 FR or 200 MR.

    • #30440
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      our last Plainwell team member was an individual NCAA qualifier as a freshman.

      Good analysis. Anyhow, who is the above swimmer?

    • #30441
      silentp
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      our last Plainwell team member was an individual NCAA qualifier as a freshman.

      Good analysis. Anyhow, who is the above swimmer?

      Who said anything about a swimmer? Kyle Oberhill, diver, from Plainwell. So it doesn’t back up my argument at all, but he was a good diver.

    • #30442
      miller
      Member

      Steve Tisch was from Plainwell. While he didn’t qualify individually as a rookie, he went on relays.

    • #30443
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Sheeran had B cut every year, and Steve was faster than Sheeran as a freshmen, so I would think that Steve atleast swam an individual as a rookie.

    • #30444
      Mickey Mouse
      Member

      Wasn’t Jeff Gorton from Plainwell too?

      I’m pretty sure he went to nationals as a freshman.

    • #30445
      miller
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Sheeran had B cut every year, and Steve was faster than Sheeran as a freshmen, so I would think that Steve atleast swam an individual as a rookie.

      You may be correct…I just don’t recall.

    • #30446
      robertbruce
      Member

      of course they was from plainwell… what’s your point? plainwell boys have served us well so far, why shouldn’t they continue that service?

    • #30447
      silentp
      Member

      @Mickey Mouse wrote:

      Wasn’t Jeff Gorton from Plainwell too?

      I’m pretty sure he went to nationals as a freshman.

      Yes, Jeff Gorton was from Plainwell
      http://www.k-swimming.org/alumni/bio_view.php?id=31

      He was also an 8 time All American, so since there are only 2 boards to dive on in D3, he had to have gone to NCAAs as a freshman.

      @Gargamel wrote:

      DonC (kinda like Donzi but not – ok sorry), you make an interesting point about Hope’s 100 Fly top 10 list. Maybe you could answer some of my questions because there aren’t a lot of older guys that post on here from Hope and the older guys I know well or see on occasion aren’t really that old. Meaning they didn’t swim in the early/mid 90s. 3 of the top 10 happened the athletes senior year, three more in junior years. Two each both as sophs and froshies. Why? I’m not sure, when I looked at it a little bit closer I discovered that Zupancic only swam the 100 fly rested his fresh and jr year…he swam the 400 IM as a soph and senior. Dan Knapp was also MIAA champ in the 400 IM his senior year after posting his 100 fly mark as a junior. Perhaps that is also more of an explanation. It would be like faulting Matt Waterstone for never improving his 200 back top 10 time because he never swam it shaved and tapered after his soph year. Another underclassman on the list is still active. I have no idea about Hescott and Hoffman though. Do you? I suppose it’s possible that Chopper could have swum the 200 Free at MIAAs his junior and sr years but I am not sure. His best 50 and 100 are both from March of his senior year. Hoffman on the other hand, I am unsure about.

      A bit defensive are we?

    • #30448
      TheDon
      Member

      Since we are on the subject of Plainwell, Hope has had Steve Hope (great name for his choice of school) MIAA triple winner in 1992 in the 200, 500, & 1650 and more recently Abe Glas, both from Plainwell.

    • #30449
      silentp
      Member

      @TheDon wrote:

      Since we are on the subject of Plainwell, Hope has had Steve Hope (great name for his choice of school) MIAA triple winner in 1992 in the 200, 500, & 1650 and more recently Abe Glas, both from Plainwell.

      Great name for a Hope swimmer indeed. He is on the Kzoo record board for the 800 FR and I always thought Coach just forgot the guy’s name!

    • #30450
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Steve Hope is also the reason that Jeff Gorton never consider going to Hope College. That guy was not so nice.

      Anyhow, does anyone else my age feel a little bad that guys like Pfau (IE Guys who have long since graduated) hadn’t heard of Steve Hope.

      Rgarding Hope 100 fly list. Hescott probably swam that time in season, or at the very least wasn’t doing his best event. Same goes for Knapp. Aaron Hoffman’s time was from December of his Sophomore year. However, he only swam one or two meets as a senior because of a bad shoulder injury. That can happen to anyone.

    • #30451
      silentp
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Regarding Hope 100 fly list. Hescott probably swam that time in season, or at the very least wasn’t doing his best event. Same goes for Knapp. Aaron Hoffman’s time was from December of his Sophomore year. However, he only swam one or two meets as a senior because of a bad shoulder injury. That can happen to anyone.

      Since this has all been said to defend the Hope fly list, couldn’t it be turned around to say that these people were the only ones to make the list and those that actually trained fly were worse, meaning Hope cannot train flyers and only naturally talented swimmers can do it once at hope? I don’t think it is true, but i think the same arguement could be made.

    • #30452
      maverick1
      Member

      their top flyer (bouwens) though was purely a hope bred butterflyer(55 in high school i thinki heard)……he had a huge drop also between his junior and senior years right?

    • #30453
      Chachi
      Member

      @Maverick wrote:

      their top flyer (bouwens) though was purely a hope bred butterflyer(55 in high school i thinki heard)……he had a huge drop also between his junior and senior years right?

      HS – 55.71

      Fr. – 54.99
      So. – 52.84
      Jr. – 52.18
      Sr. – 51.31

    • #30454
      silentp
      Member

      Did we ever get what the best relays as it stands right now are for the 400 FR? It’s the premeire race at meets and should be a lot of fun. Last year it was a runaway with Hope going a blazing fast time. A time for K is tough as far as something concrete (because of the obvious) but i’ll break it down as much as i can.

      – K as the fastest guy (Ellis at 46.1).
      – Calvin has the fastest number 2 guy (Ress 47.09)
      – K has the fastest number 3 guy (unless he’s their number 2?)(Hennigar 47.3)
      – Hope has the fastest number 4 guy (not sure who, believe it’s a freshman) which shows their great depth
      – Olivet is the biggest wild card because they do have 2 sub 48 guys and a very fast incoming freshman
      – K, Olivet and Calvin ALL have question marks with their 4th leg and while Hope does too, it’s a good problem for Hope and a not as good one for the other 3.

    • #30455
      Gargamel
      Member

      Chach, I thought you were a 55.8 in high school. My bad, fire on water.

    • #30456
      T-Bone
      Member

      [quote=”silentp”Funny to think that as it stands for the top 6 100 guys Calvin probably has 2 (JBG, Ress), Hope has 1 for sure (Vanderbroek) and K might have 3 (Ellis, Fonzi, and Hennigar), although it seems unlikely they’d all swim it. Despite that, Hope would still be the favorite for the 400 FR, that’s depth.[/quote]

      I was looking at this post from earlier and it didn’t seem quite right… It seems like Hope should also have some studs in the 100 free that are not swimming it but maybe they just don’t have open 100 times that they swam while rested. I don’t feel like looking it up – can I get some times to support this?

    • #30457
      silentp
      Member

      @T-Bone wrote:

      [quote=”silentp”Funny to think that as it stands for the top 6 100 guys Calvin probably has 2 (JBG, Ress), Hope has 1 for sure (Vanderbroek) and K might have 3 (Ellis, Fonzi, and Hennigar), although it seems unlikely they’d all swim it. Despite that, Hope would still be the favorite for the 400 FR, that’s depth.

      I was looking at this post from earlier and it didn’t seem quite right… It seems like Hope should also have some studs in the 100 free that are not swimming it but maybe they just don’t have open 100 times that they swam while rested. I don’t feel like looking it up – can I get some times to support this?[/quote]

      I don’t think anyone is going to be able to support it. Hope is by far the deepest, but lacks the studs that they have been famous for in years past. It could workout very well though, who knows.

    • #30458
      stiles
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      – K as the fastest guy (Ellis at 46.1).
      – Calvin has the fastest number 2 guy (Ress 47.09)
      – K has the fastest number 3 guy (unless he’s their number 2?)(Hennigar 47.3)
      – Hope has the fastest number 4 guy (not sure who, believe it’s a freshman) which shows their great depth
      .

      I am not really sure where you are getting your hope numbers.

      Hope has the fastest guy, CVB-46.0
      Hope’s 2nd is faster than Ress, Rose-46.9
      Hope’s 3rd is faster than Henn, RVZ-47.2
      Hope’s 4th is a D1 transfer, I think he will be faster than anyone else’s 4th.

      That is why Hope is the favorite, partyl because of depth, but because our guys are faster.

    • #30459
      silentp
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      – K as the fastest guy (Ellis at 46.1).
      – Calvin has the fastest number 2 guy (Ress 47.09)
      – K has the fastest number 3 guy (unless he’s their number 2?)(Hennigar 47.3)
      – Hope has the fastest number 4 guy (not sure who, believe it’s a freshman) which shows their great depth
      .

      I am not really sure where you are getting your hope numbers.

      Hope has the fastest guy, CVB-46.0
      Hope’s 2nd is faster than Ress, Rose-46.9
      Hope’s 3rd is faster than Henn, RVZ-47.2
      Hope’s 4th is a D1 transfer, I think he will be faster than anyone else’s 4th.

      That is why Hope is the favorite, partyl because of depth, but because our guys are faster.

      Maybe I missed something so please correct me if I’m wrong (honestly, I don’t know), but when was CVB 46.0? That seems a lot faster than the 46.8 I could find him at leading off the 400 FR in finals at MIAAs last year. That .8 difference would make him the fastest to be sure.

      Also, on Rose I guess I was wrong because I thought the 46.9 was a relay split and not a flat start time. Ress went his 47.0 on a flat start in consols of the 100 free last year. Was this time for Rose a flat start time?

      Again with RVZ i have missed his times because I can only find him as a 47.9 at MIAAs last year, both in prelims and consols, but had a fantastic split of 46.5 on the Hope relay. When did he go the 47.2?

      Once I get this information to input we can recalculate the numbers. Thanks!

    • #30460
      stiles
      Member

      THose are splits but that time from Ellis is a split as well, correct? I haven’t foudn where he was a 46.1 flat start. Or is this the drop y ou give him because he and the Fonz are the greatest swimmers ever? Also, Hennigar was a 47.9/48.3 (pre/fin) last year at state.

      I will take your word for iton the Ress time bec I am nto goign to look it up.

      RVZ was a 47.2 on a 4 free at nats, I think. But I didn’t search for his fastest time because it was already faster than hennigar’s 47.3 (wherever you got that).

    • #30461
      silentp
      Member

      @stiles wrote:

      THose are splits but that time from Ellis is a split as well, correct? I haven’t foudn where he was a 46.1 flat start. Or is this the drop y ou give him because he and the Fonz are the greatest swimmers ever? Also, Hennigar was a 47.9/48.3 (pre/fin) last year at state.

      I will take your word for iton the Ress time bec I am nto goign to look it up.

      RVZ was a 47.2 on a 4 free at nats, I think. But I didn’t search for his fastest time because it was already faster than hennigar’s 47.3 (wherever you got that).

      I added .6 to Ellis time because he did not swim a flat-start 100 free time tapered last year. Also, you say CVB’s was a split, but your “estimating” of 46.0 is off by .6, so the split difference is actually half a second, meaning Ellis could be considered the fastest 100 freestyler.

      Hennigar, as every other person who has read this, or any other thread where it has been brought up in the MIAA forum knows, was 47.3 as a junior, then added time as a senior. While you can say what you want about the time, it’s still his PR.

      If you’re going to use a split for RVZ at least use his best and give him credit, a 46.5 is an amazing split, especially for a 47.9 100 guy.

      As far as Kurti, the anchor to your relay, is concerned, he was a 47.8 100 at best I could find him, but perhaps someone else could find a better time. And yes, this is better than the 4th guy on K’s relay, who would be, at present time, Bobby Dekker with a 48.30.

      But seriously, good argument about K just thinking Ellis/Fonzi were the greatest swimmers ever.

    • #30462

      Ok so I’m trying to follow this and it seems like SilentP is using flat start times for the most part (except I also couldn’t find where Ellis was a flat 46.1, I saw a relay 46.19 though). And Stiles wants to use relays too. If we use .6 for a relay plus or minus let’s put it together using the best possible time.

      Fastest. K: Ellis 46.19 + .6 = 46.79
      Hope: Vanderbroek 46.05 +.6 = 46.65
      Calvin: Boumgarden 47.04

      2nd. K: Espinosa ?? How about the avg between Ellis and Hennigar? (46.79+47.33)/2-.6=46.46
      Hope: RVZ relay 46.75
      Calvin: Ress 47.09 – .6 = 46.49

      3rd. K: Hennigar 47.33 – .6 = 46.73
      Hope: Rose 46.96
      Calvin: Tuuk 46.85

      4th. K: Dekker 48.3-.6=47.7
      Hope: Nelis 47.09
      Calvin: VanAllsburg 47.87

      Totals: Hope: 3:07.45
      KZoo: 3:07.68
      Calvin: 3:08.25

      Pretty damn close.

    • #30463
      stiles
      Member

      CVB went a 46.05 at the end of the 4 Medley last year. So 46.0 was not wrong, I just did not include that last decimal. I don’t see why we can’t just compare split to split, 46.05 to 46.19, CVB is the faster freestyler. I don’t really see how this is difficult. Since we don’t have a Ellis flat start time to judge against, let’s take what we do have.

      I think I am right on here.

      Also, the problem that I have =with considering the fact that Hennigar will be able to split this ultra fast time is that even in the year that he went the 47.33 he still got beat out for the 400 free at AAP. Not only that but he didn’t make the 400 free relay either year. His juniro year getting beat out by a 48.3 split and a 47.6 split and his senior year 47.5 split and 47.1 split. Why do we not see what Denny Hill saw? This is a kid that went a 47.33….however no one will say that his other 3 swims of the 100 his jun/sen yaer were all 47.9 or slower.

      Just a few thoughts.

    • #30464
      silentp
      Member

      High School Swimming has a rule that a swimmer can only compete in 2 relays if they choose to compete in 2 individual events. Since young Hennigar had already done the 200 MR and 200 FR, he was unable to be in the 400 FR, this is true in both 2006 and 2005. Perhaps you were unaware of this rule.

      Also, since Hennigar only went the 47.33 once, it apparently doesn’t count. This means since CVB has only gone under 47 once, it does not count, or can be overlooked as a fluke, right? This would then also be true about his 200 free split at NCAAs. I don’t agree with that at all, but that seems to be the logic here.

      The funny thing is, Hope recruited Hennigar and really wanted him to swim there, but he chose K. I am 100% confident that if Hope had gotten him, they would be using his 47.3 time, not his 47.9 time for making their relay, since that would be the second fastest flat start 100 time on the team.

      Good post Happy Madison, it shows what I have been trying to say: that this will be close and Hope shouldn’t be the runaway favorite like it would appear that some people here believe.

    • #30465
      Stevo
      Member

      Hope shouldn’t be the runaway favorite like it would appear that some people here believe.

      No one has said they are a runaway favorite but from the apples to apples comparison they are the favorite.

    • #30466
      Derek
      Member

      I’m impressed with all of the arguments here based on times… and then we got apples. Who’s swimming with apples?

    • #30467

      Stevo likes Pizza, not Apples.

    • #30468
      silentp
      Member

      @TheAnswer wrote:

      Hope has a better chance of qualifying 5 relays than not qualifying any. There, I said it — what?

      I was thinking about this and thought I’d disagree with it. While I do think Hope will get a relay or 2 in (maybe more, maybe not) I’d say there is a better chance they don’t get any in than get all 5 in.

      There aren’t many teams who get all 5 relays in and it takes quite a bit of talent, so while Hope could do it, I’d say it’s a longer shot than them qualifying none, especially considering how much faster Q times have gotten.

      What does anyone else think? Remember, I am not saying Hope won’t get any in, just what has a better chance.

    • #30469

      I happen to disagree with you SilentP. Not because I am an avid Hope supporter but because I truly think Hope has more of a chance to qualify 5 relays than zero relays.

      I can almost see you over there at CDW with the puzzled look on your face. I, for one, happen to think that Hope could qualify ANY of the 5 relays. I am not saying they will qualify all of them but they have a shot in any of them. The 800 Free is probably the longshot of the group but with the improvements the freshman made last year and CVB after being out of the water for some time, this new group should help its chances.

      Let’s break it down.
      Best times to this point and see where we’re at…
      200 Free Relay:
      Ryan VZ 21.5
      Jake Holton (20.6)
      Steve Kurti 21.4-.6=(20.8)
      CVB 21.4-.6=(20.8)
      Total: 1:23.7
      Meaning? It’s the relay with the least room to improve on the team but I’ll take my chances with a 1:23.7 before season.

      400 Free Relay:
      I believe I broke this down earlier in this thread.
      3:07.45 before the season starts and that is without (arguably) the teams top sprinter on the relay.
      Meaning? I’ll take my chances that this relay makes the cut.

      800 Free Relay:
      CVB 1:42.6
      Heyboer 1:44.9-.6=1:44.3
      RVZ=1:44.9
      DG=145.2-.6=144.6
      Total: 6:56.4
      Meaning: Like I said, probably the toughest relay to qualify but some decent drops here and it’s a possibility.

      The thing Hope has going for them in the freestyles is depth. They really don’t drop off much. And their B 200 or 400 Free Relay is nothing to sneeze at either. If you’re not careful when squaring off against Hope, you could easily get 1-2d in a dual meet. If one of their preseason top four guys isn’t on when it matters, soething tells me one of the guys that train day in and day out with them will be firing on all cylinders.

      Medleys:
      Heyboer 52.1
      King 59.6-.6=59.0
      KW 51.1
      CVB 46.0?
      Total: 3:28.2

      I have to think with the first two legs as freshman could drop. KW appeared to train IM last year, if he puts some focus on short speed who knows where he could end up, and others keep mentioning the possiblity of a freshman flyer here. If other schools are banking on time drops I dont know why Hope can’t do the same. Fact of the matter is, if the freshman have decent improvements and the returners have moderate improvements, this relay should qualify.

      200 Medley
      24.2
      ?
      22.7
      20.6

      All of those are respectable splits and Hope appears to have filled the void on the second leg to make it a real possibility.

      Now maybe I am looking at this wrong but it seems to me that one of these relays will go. Based on that premise, I have to say that all of them have a shot, as demostrated above. For those reasons, based on actual times and historical improvements (without factual evidence of course…but you can use last years freshman drops if you’d like for the newbies) I say Hope has a better chance at qualifying 5 than they do of not qualifying any.

    • #30470
      silentp
      Member

      King’s split is a 26.80, making that relay a more than respectable 1:34.3.

      I completely see your argument and like i said, because they are all close, I think they’ll get at least one in, but none of those relays have Q times yet. They will improve, likely, but that’s when they’re all doing their best already, so it’s tough to say.

      Additionally, I know Hope improves swimmers but 6-7 seconds in an 800 FR is not easy.

    • #30471
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Hope, Kzoo, Calvin etc… have no chance of getting an 800 free relay in. It will take a 6:50, which is 1:42.50 per swimmer, and I don’t think there are 4 swimmers in the league who you can honestly say are certain to split that. Therefore, any team is more likely to get 0 in than 5, as from my vantage point the 800 free is simply off the table.

      Honestly, I like the ugliness (that has been going on lately). It means the rivalry is having some life breathed back into it. Folks from Kzoo realize that we are a ways off till we compete for league crown again, but we are falling back on other laurels (such as: we have a good shot at beating Hope at NCAA’s). This is the opposite of how it was a few years back. Next thing you know, we are going to complain about Olivet cleaning up in diving!

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