National Rankings

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    • #12820
      3 6 Mafia
      Member

      So college swimming decides every year to assign arbitrary points to random characteristics to both the mens and womens swim teams. this year, like every year, is just total garbage.

      http://www.collegeswimming.com/core/team_rankings/division/3/

      whats more ridiculous (mens list): JHU is considered 13th or Rochester is top 25?

      Kzoo isnt even on the list.

    • #40831

      Olivet scored one point last year at nationals and that puts them in 10th.

    • #40832

      Aren’t those the results held over from last year? Or do they actually reflect this year’s dual-meet standings (from the self-selected entrants, of course)?

    • #40833
      Derek
      Member

      The only feasible way to fix this sitation is for one single database to hold all results with a lot of contexual information (tapered, competitor, etc.) for each swim and create the rankings regardless of who submits times or not… Here at d3 we don’t do results that way (we take results as one entire file, not individual swims) and we don’t have the manpower to even get all the results from each weekend across the nation… I agree that these rankings basically suck, but until we can either put a lot of money toward this or get a LOT of volunteers, no better ranking system is possible.

    • #40834
      aquaholic
      Member

      Looks like there’s something different in place:

      Division III head coaches should have received an inquiry form today in advance of the Division III CollegeSwimming.com/CSCAA Coaches’ Poll. If not, please contact Greg Earhart. Teams submitting entries for the first Mid-Major and Division II poll should do so by the end of today.

      I agree that all of these rankings are bull and impossible – some teams are better early, some later. What about Kenyon splitting their teams like they sometimes do? And wouldn’t a coach run a different lineup against different teams (kind of like putting a lot of lefties in the lineup against a righty?)

    • #40835
      CaseBrst10
      Member

      Oddly enough, washu also doesn’t make an appearance…

    • #40836
      swmwl1
      Member

      The link provided is for last year’s final poll and only reflects the teams who turned in their entry form.

      As mentioned above by aquaholic, Greg Earhart at collegeswimming.com has established a voting poll like the college football coach poll. Each DIII member coach of the CSCAA will have a vote. While no system will be perfect, this should be a step in the right direction.

      Also remember what polls are for, publicity for the sport.

      Best of luck to all this weekend.

      Joel Shinofield
      Head Men’s Coach
      Washington and Lee

    • #40837
      The Treat
      Member

      @CaseBrst10 wrote:

      Oddly enough, washu also doesn’t make an appearance…

      Shively never submits these things. He doesnt care about national rankings.

    • #40838

      We go through this every year. The only teams on the list are coaches that submit the times from their teams. There are always gapping holes. It is a stupid system that for some reason we talk about at the beginning of every year.

    • #40839
      babwik
      Member

      Sure there are gaping holes, and people swim fast times at different points in the year, etc. It is not and will probably never be ideal, but I think the poll is a good thing.

      It is publicity and it definitely gives the poll something to gripe about and debate

    • #40840
      Djinntsai
      Member

      I can’t see it as a good thing if every team isn’t considered

    • #40841
      The Treat
      Member

      @babwik wrote:

      Sure there are gaping holes, and people swim fast times at different points in the year, etc. It is not and will probably never be ideal, but I think the poll is a good thing.

      It is publicity and it definitely gives the poll something to gripe about and debate

      publicity to who? to other d3 swimmers? who even looks at those polls besides d3 swimmers?

    • #40842
      99 Red
      Member

      I think one real use is for Sports Information Directors. They love to be able to stick “4th ranked team in the country” in their releases. Also, it helps a student body relate more to the swim team. After all, if a student body can better get behind a 20th ranked soccer team, it stands to reason that they might have a similar reaction to the swim team. Every other sport has rankings, and in DIII, I think every sport has an end of year tourny to determine who wins, so the rankings really don’t mean anything for them either.

    • #40843
      The Treat
      Member

      @99 Red wrote:

      I think one real use is for Sports Information Directors. They love to be able to stick “4th ranked team in the country” in their releases. Also, it helps a student body relate more to the swim team. After all, if a student body can better get behind a 20th ranked soccer team, it stands to reason that they might have a similar reaction to the swim team. Every other sport has rankings, and in DIII, I think every sport has an end of year tourny to determine who wins, so the rankings really don’t mean anything for them either.

      touche, but i think SID’s should be the ones submitting this stuff, not the coaches.

    • #40844
      lirpa
      Member

      SIDs don’t know anything about swimming in general. It’d be pretty wild to see a poll they put together. At least the coaches understand the sport.

      I’d be willing to bet 7/10 SIDs don’t know the difference between yards and meters. I love reading meet recaps that say things like: Girl A wins the 100 meter free in a time of 54.88.

    • #40845

      To those naysayers opposed to using an objective ranking, you may be happy to know that we have now switched to a coaches’ poll.

      The point rankings were useful because of the diverse nature of Division III where teams often don’t get an opportunity to swim other top teams. By the same token, they obviously omitted teams that did not submit their entries and didn’t necessarily reflect how a coach might change his/her lineup to face a particular team.

      So we’re merely substituting one reason to argue about the rankings for another. The key, however, is arguing – i.e. creating a dialogue – about Division III swimming. In answer to who reads or pays attention to these things – A.D.’s and the media do. Swimming as a whole doesn’t do a lot to make itself accessible to outside media or fans. When you put it into a ranking, however, its something that people can instantly identify with.

      There’s also an ulterior motive here – helping strengthen our sport. I have been told by coaches from both a Mid-Major and a Division II team that being able to say they “were ranked ___th in the country” was beneficial to fighting back efforts by the administration to get cut. If the swim team is ranked 17th in the country, and the wrestling team isn’t ranked at all, we help push the target onto wrestling.

      As mentioned, one drawback of Division III especially is the distant geography between teams. It can make it tough for coaches to know what’s going on outside of their little sphere. To combat that, we’ve created a crib sheet of sorts for several teams. You can find it at http://www.collegeswimming.com/media/documents/DivisionIII-Roundup.pdf.. It has largely been coach-submitted and surely has some omissions. If you have an interest in contributing to the next one that will go out to coaches on December 9th, please contact me via e-mail.

      Baring cancelled flights, the arguments are set to begin Wednesday

      Greg

    • #40846
      99 Red
      Member

      I agree totally with the reasoning of the poll. I’d love to get a look at the crib sheet, but I wasn’t able to follow the link. I think this is it, but if it is something else, please point me in the right direction.

      Click to access DivisionIII-Roundup.pdf

    • #40847

      the system is flawed until every contending team is on the crib sheet.. which right now isnt the case

    • #40848
      Djinntsai
      Member

      What do you mean by every contending team? Every team in D3? I dont think that’s necessary; it’s a top 25 ranking, so the top 50 or so teams should be on the sheet. What “contending teams” are missing?

    • #40849
      The Treat
      Member

      @Djinntsai wrote:

      What do you mean by every contending team? Every team in D3? I dont think that’s necessary; it’s a top 25 ranking, so the top 50 or so teams should be on the sheet. What “contending teams” are missing?

      apparently UC santa cruz?

      i think they should just take the top 25-40 teams from last years national meet and use them for the poll. that should include just about everyone.

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