League Meet or Nationals?

Forums Conferences Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association League Meet or Nationals?

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    • #11879
      el radio
      Member

      I was discussing this with one of my co-swimmers yesterday and i thought i would share it with everyone. Being not national caliber swimmer material makes things a bit different for some. For example, We discussed the upcoming league meet, and after discussing i got chills and became really excited. I know, for me, the best thing to swim at is the MIAA meet.

      I know how most of the other guys on the team feel to. League meet is one of the best experiences ever. But what i wanted to ask (to all currents who go to nationals) and all alum who go to nationals (not affiliated with Hope). Do you guys feel the same way about swimming at league meet? or did you guys focus more on nationals and trying to perform there rather?

      i only ask because it seems to me some people are rather indifferent abuot swimming at league meet, but others i know live for swimming at just the league meet.

    • #29320
      silentp
      Member

      As a person who only qualified for NCAAs my senior year, my goal going into each MIAA was to get to NCAA. There were other goals, obviously, but that was the ultimate. In this way, winning MIAAs was much less important than posting a time fast enough to swim into March. In this way, I obviously trained for MIAAs, but always wanted to do it to make NCAAs. It never felt like the “big show”, but was very exciting nonetheless.

      At NCAAs, it wasn’t as exciting as MIAAs for me, mostly because my only goal was to make it back, or in some cases where that wasn’t possible, to just swim fast. This isn’t as exciting. Adding to this, there were only 2 of us on the team, and a very small MIAA contingent in the year I went. Without a doubt a great experience though, and although I look back on all my MIAA memories fondly, I did enjoy the NCAA experience more.

    • #29321
      Insight
      Member

      This is a very interesting topic and I think SilentP hit on it. I noticed you said that your focus at MIAA was to make the NCAA meet. Thus, you would had to have swim your fastest at the MIAA meet to make the NCAA meet. THis means that your focus the whole year was on the MIAA meet.

      ONce you made the meet your senior year, it was probably difficult to refocus, retrain and recreate the environment at the MIAA meet at NCAA because as you cited, there was a small MIAA contingent there.

      Now, I am TOTALLY generalizeing and making assumptions, the whole 9 yards, so correct me where I am wrong. I don’t doubt that you very much enjoyed the NCAA experience however, I do believe that this is exactly what happens: MIAA swimmers focus so hard on getting to the NCAA meet, creating an awesome environment at teh MIAA meet and cannot reproduce the same results. ONly those MIAA swimmers that had the ability to focus on the NCAA meet could produce on the National level (Boss, Kurtz, Blohm, whoever else).

      Thus, I am making two statement with this post:

      1. To the MIAA league, I think the focus is on leagues so the huge percentage of swimmers compete at the highest level when swimming at MIAA’s.

      2. To the NCAA D3 people, stop dropping the times. As was the case one year with teh 50 that almost 20 people were UNDER 21.00. This makes it so almost everyone has to focus on there league meet. This creates two problems: a. waters down the NCAA meet with retapered people b. gives a huge advantage to teams that don’t have to tpaer for their league meet.

      Wow, this turned into a lot longer of a post that initially anticipated.

    • #29322
      The Treat
      Member

      @Insight wrote:

      This is a very interesting topic and I think SilentP hit on it. I noticed you said that your focus at MIAA was to make the NCAA meet. Thus, you would had to have swim your fastest at the MIAA meet to make the NCAA meet. THis means that your focus the whole year was on the MIAA meet.

      ONce you made the meet your senior year, it was probably difficult to refocus, retrain and recreate the environment at the MIAA meet at NCAA because as you cited, there was a small MIAA contingent there.

      Now, I am TOTALLY generalizeing and making assumptions, the whole 9 yards, so correct me where I am wrong. I don’t doubt that you very much enjoyed the NCAA experience however, I do believe that this is exactly what happens: MIAA swimmers focus so hard on getting to the NCAA meet, creating an awesome environment at teh MIAA meet and cannot reproduce the same results. ONly those MIAA swimmers that had the ability to focus on the NCAA meet could produce on the National level (Boss, Kurtz, Blohm, whoever else).

      Thus, I am making two statement with this post:

      1. To the MIAA league, I think the focus is on leagues so the huge percentage of swimmers compete at the highest level when swimming at MIAA’s.

      2. To the NCAA D3 people, stop dropping the times. As was the case one year with teh 50 that almost 20 people were UNDER 21.00. This makes it so almost everyone has to focus on there league meet. This creates two problems: a. waters down the NCAA meet with retapered people b. gives a huge advantage to teams that don’t have to tpaer for their league meet.

      Wow, this turned into a lot longer of a post that initially anticipated.

      you’re telling people to stop dropping times? i hope thats a joke.

      as far as teams gaining an advantage from not having to taper for their conference meet gaining a “huge” advantage, that is why it is an advantage. there is a reason why they dont have to taper for their conf meet and can focus on ncaa’s instead – they are good enough to do so. it is a team’s choice whether they want to focus on a midseason meet and try and qual for ncaa’s so they can not focus on conference or they can focus on conference. that is their own choice. its called strategy.

    • #29323
      iamdonovan
      Member

      I think he meant stop dropping the qualifying times, but I may have read that wrong.

    • #29324
      Derek
      Member

      donovon and I read it the same way.

      As far as what I think should occur to rectify that nationals situation, I think that d3swimmers should put more focus on the SUMMER training season… I never did a very good job of training in the summer (and I never made nationals!), but if people would train hard throughout the summer, then a midseason taper could really count for something and they could qualify there, alleviating the need for a double taper.

    • #29325
      The Treat
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      donovon and I read it the same way.

      As far as what I think should occur to rectify that nationals situation, I think that d3swimmers should put more focus on the SUMMER training season… I never did a very good job of training in the summer (and I never made nationals!), but if people would train hard throughout the summer, then a midseason taper could really count for something and they could qualify there, alleviating the need for a double taper.

      ok, now that makes a little more sense.

    • #29326
      silentp
      Member

      I think they should keep dropping qualifying times, the same number of people are still getting in, so let them drop… it won’t change who gets into the meet and who doesn’t.

      Those who have to concentrate really hard on just making the meet (such as myself) aren’t in contention to win anyway and are happy making it, and just hope to duplicate our times once there, so thats the way it should be.

      I agree with Derek, swim over the summer if you want to do well at the midseason taper. Or, get a coach that knows how to do a double taper. The swimmers who qualified for the Olympics from Trials had the same 5 week period that a lot of D3 swimmers have, and many dropped times once at the Olympics. A good coach can help you duplicate your times, or even drop them with being able to swim them tapered again. Mike Arce, from ZOO, for instance, dropped 15 seconds in his 1650 time from conference meet to NCAAs. Other non-drops are inaccurate. By this I will use myself as an example. There is a very good chance I would have actually dropped time from conferences to NCAAs in my best events, but I did not qualify for finals. Since i swim much better at night, I feel i actually could have been faster had i gotten a chance to swim a second time. Such is life however and i am not complaining in the least, just pointing out that certain adds in time could be related to this.

    • #29327
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      as far as teams gaining an advantage from not having to taper for their conference meet gaining a “huge” advantage, that is why it is an advantage. there is a reason why they dont have to taper for their conf meet and can focus on ncaa’s instead – they are good enough to do so.

      I think that folks at the UAA meet could care less about team placement at conference meet/. This is what makes the MIAA different. And it isn’t just because the MIAA doesn’t have much of a national presense right now. When I was a freshmen back in 1995 Hope finished 2nd, Kzoo finished 7th and both teams tapered for MIAA’s (there were 1 or 2 on both teams who didn’t). But Blohm had to do a full taper last year because his team needed him. Latham and JD always tapered because the team needed them. (and) Some elite swimmers did partial tapers, but it didn’t matter because the team focus was on MIAAs, and when that is the team’s focus…

      The exception was the Hope teams of the Boss era. Having him single handedly changed the focus of the team. I suppose a star that bright will do that.

      Anyhow, let me conclude with this: in 03 when Kzoo broke Hope’s win streak in the 400 free relay: Kzoo would have lost that race without a fully tapered JD. But MAYBE, without the taper, Kzoo would have gone a 3:04 at Nats, JD scored some more individual points, etc… Maybe the team would have placed 5th instead of 6th or 7th. But that is kind of the point. I don’t even know what place the team finished that year. But I sure as heck remember that relay.

    • #29328
      silentp
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      I don’t even know what place the team finished that year. But I sure as heck remember that relay.

      10th

    • #29329
      Derek
      Member

      Wasn’t that the year that JD was supposed to be untapered, just rested for a few days and had a full beard? Of course, he swam like he was fully tapered and actually swam faster at MIAAs than at Nats, but if I remember correctly he only rested for a few days.

    • #29330
      Vic
      Member

      In 2001 and 2002 Judsen didn’t taper for MIAAs. I can’t remember about 2003. As a side note, Nick Duda didn’t taper for MIAAs in 2001 or 2002 either.

    • #29331
      silentp
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      Wasn’t that the year that JD was supposed to be untapered, just rested for a few days and had a full beard? Of course, he swam like he was fully tapered and actually swam faster at MIAAs than at Nats, but if I remember correctly he only rested for a few days.

      He did taper because he felt his performance at NCAAs would be better if he tapered for MIAAs because of the results in 01 and 02. Unfortunately, i think he went faster at the Alma or Albion dual in the 200 than at NCAAs… but gotta love Jud!

    • #29332
      Stevo
      Member

      I want to elaborate on Doncheadles point. I had the privilege of riding the coat tails of some fast swimmers to nationals during my years at hope so i got to experience nationals and MIAA’ every year. I enjoyed my experiences at MIAA’s way more than nationals….let me explain why. At the league meet i was competing with my entire team, every person that i swam with every day was swimming. I also was more familiar with my competition, i knew everything about Kurtz, Brad White, Ben Callam, Steve Domin, etc.. and when i got to nationals i had no idea who caleb cocurage, reed boon, and chris pearson were. So it was way more exciting for me to race against people i knew and be a part of my entire team. I thoroughly enjoyed going to nationals, but i swam with 7 guys at the maximum from my team, and it didn’t have the same excitement. I have plenty of memories of nationals (ie…standing at the end of Josh Boss’s lane and watching him win by half a pool length, having the fastest split in the 200 FR my senior year) but winning the MIAA my junior and senior year are my best memories. I have heard Josh Boss and Brian Slagh say that they would give up all of there nationals experiences to beat Kzoo at league meet. One of my goals at league meet was make it to nationals but that was below winning a league championship. Nationals was gravy for me. Feel free to disagree.

    • #29333
      swim5599
      Member

      I honestly hate to bring this up again, but their is no reason why you can’t be fully tapered at your conf meet and then come back and swim much faster 5 weeks later. The MIAA and CCIW meets are on the same weekend each year, and they are both 5 weeks away from the big dance. I coached at 2 d3 meets and both times just about all of our athletes were fully rested at both the conf meet and the nat meet, with the exception of 1, and they all swam faster, and in some cases way faster. WHy are there so many people out there that just do not think this is possible.

    • #29334

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I honestly hate to bring this up again, but their is no reason why you can’t be fully tapered at your conf meet and then come back and swim much faster 5 weeks later.

      I agree. Pardon the cliche but I think a lot of it is mental. Too many are simply convinced that they will not perform well because of the double taper. I think MIAA swimmers in particular have a difficult time mentally preparing for nationals, many times because we are so burnt out from the intensity at leagues. So it’s not lack of physical preparation at all. I, for one, had much better physical condition before nationals. I held a set of 10 x 50’s under 22 from a dive on 3 minutes which is something I never would have touched prior to MIAA’s. I can’t tell you why I wasn’t faster at NCAA’s. Could have been the shoulder, or just plain tired of swimming. Probably more of the latter.

      Most of the time it’s not the coaches fault but, in fact, he/she ultimately gets blamed.

      Sorry, didn’t mean to be sexist. I guess I meant the universal he.

    • #29335

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      I think MIAA swimmers in particular have a difficult time mentally preparing for nationals

      A wise man once told me something about attitude and how the great thing about attitude is that each of us has the opportunity to shape our attitude and decide the frame of mind we are in.

      I think a lot of the mental preparation you speak of is tied up in the swimmers attitude.

    • #29336
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I WHy are there so many people out there that just do not think this is possible.

      I remember disagreeing with you about this in the past. the one time I swam at Nats I did pretty well (for myself). I missed by best time in the 50 by .04 in a boner heat of a relay that was just hoping to break 1:27.00 Probably would have got my best time if we had performed in finals. And in the 100 free I got both my best relay split ever and my best flat start ever. So I DO think that it IS possible to swim better at Nats with the double taper.

      That said, there is no way you can convince me that it is ideal to do the double taper. If it were no big deal, then why not taper for a duel meet? Kurt, you blew out your body in ways you had never experienced. You swam 2 very fast 200 frees the same day, when is the last time you had done that ( and think how much has your body changed since age group days?).

      3 weeks before Nats I went 4 50’s from a push all under 23.5 I wanted to shave right then and time a 50. While I was happy with my times overall at the meet, I went a 21.90, but thought I was going to go atleast 21.5 (based on my times in practice). We all have our regrets (I am curious about others)…

    • #29337
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      As far as what I think should occur to rectify that nationals situation, I think that d3swimmers should put more focus on the SUMMER training season…

      Just from what I’ve learned through swimming in high school and such training in the summer can help many people like myself not only improve a lot easier and get in shape much faster in the real season. It also helps people who might not have as much talent catch up to those who have more talent but less drive to improve. Like some dude said “hardwork can beat talent when talent doesnt work hard”.(somthing like that)

      If more MIAA or D3 swimmers took summer more seriously I would see the D3 National meet getting a lot tougher. Obviously though many people cant devote to summer swimming with jobs and what not so I guess it always depends on circumstance.

    • #29338
      The Treat
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      I want to elaborate on Doncheadles point. I had the privilege of riding the coat tails of some fast swimmers to nationals during my years at hope so i got to experience nationals and MIAA’ every year. I enjoyed my experiences at MIAA’s way more than nationals….let me explain why. At the league meet i was competing with my entire team, every person that i swam with every day was swimming. I also was more familiar with my competition, i knew everything about Kurtz, Brad White, Ben Callam, Steve Domin, etc.. and when i got to nationals i had no idea who caleb cocurage, reed boon, and chris pearson were. So it was way more exciting for me to race against people i knew and be a part of my entire team. I thoroughly enjoyed going to nationals, but i swam with 7 guys at the maximum from my team, and it didn’t have the same excitement. I have plenty of memories of nationals (ie…standing at the end of Josh Boss’s lane and watching him win by half a pool length, having the fastest split in the 200 FR my senior year) but winning the MIAA my junior and senior year are my best memories. I have heard Josh Boss and Brian Slagh say that they would give up all of there nationals experiences to beat Kzoo at league meet. One of my goals at league meet was make it to nationals but that was below winning a league championship. Nationals was gravy for me. Feel free to disagree.

      i agree, conference meets are usually more exciting and meaningful for the people on the team than nationals would be. that doesnt change the fact that you still have the choice of what meet you want to focus on. exciting or not, you choose what is more meaningful for you.

      i dont know about josh boss giving up his national titles and national records just to beat kzoo at a league meet. of course he can say that afterwards but if you were to ask him before going into his college career, “would you rather win 1 conference title or 7 national championships, hold two national records, and walk away being recognized as one of the greatest to ever swim D3,” his response probably will be the latter. then again, maybe josh boss is more selfless than i give him credit for.

      you always want the one thing you could never have. it’s human nature.

    • #29339

      @The Treat wrote:

      you always want the one thing you could never have. it’s human nature.

      Good point.

    • #29340
      Insight
      Member

      I think that folks at the UAA meet could care less about team placement at conference meet/.

      This is what I was getting at the; the differences in the atmosphere at the league meet. I don’t doubt that it is mostly mental, in fact, I am sure that is mostly mentel. But that is part of swimming. To Treat, you said that you always have a choice on what you are going to focus on. True to an extent if you want to be seen as a selfish swimmer. Think back to the 2003 when Kzoo beat Hope in the 400 free…what if JD hadn’t of tapered? He was a caliber of swimmer that could make it NCAA with too much of a taper. But then K would not have beat H in the 400 free. The MIAA is different than other leagues with the focus of the training. I also know that the coaches in the MIAA are MORE than capable of putting gusy thru an effective double taper.

      Like Stevo said, you are racing around your teammates and against guys that you have swam against and watched their times all year. The atmosphere is impossible to recreate.

      Also, to bring up a point that is way back in this thread, I don’t think they should keep dropping qualifiying times. Thanks to Donovan and Maverick for clarifing the posts for me.

    • #29341
      silentp
      Member

      @Insight wrote:

      Also, to bring up a point that is way back in this thread, I don’t think they should keep dropping qualifiying times.

      Why? What difference does it make? As far as the people who get into the meet, it will be the same. As far as people who get to swim, it’s already enough. I believe there were something like 10 heats of the 200 IM when i went, do we really need 12? No. Keep dropping them.

    • #29342
      Derek
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      As far as people who get to swim, it’s already enough. I believe there were something like 10 heats of the 200 IM when i went, do we really need 12? No. Keep dropping them.

      Because of the way nationals is selected, you have to look at the total number of heats for the entire day/meet. Looking at the number of heats in one event is irrelevent.

    • #29343

      @Insight wrote:

      Also, to bring up a point that is way back in this thread, I don’t think they should keep dropping qualifiying times.

      Why do you keep bringing this up? It is really irrelevant what the cut times are because the NCAA takes the same number of athletes each year regardless. Yeah, if 24 guys somehow make the A cut in one event then they all get included, but in reality the A and B cut times only serve as a reference as to when an athlete can be considered and when they would be allowed to swim an individual event if they qualify as a relay only swimmer.

      It just doesn’t matter enough to keep bringing up. If the B times are slower will it make you feel better because you are closer to attaining them? It’s really a stupid argument, as the competition improves and times drop so will the standards.

    • #29344
      maverick1
      Member

      maybe the problem in the miaa is that not enough athletes are willing just to bust themselves for 3 of the 5 weeks between miaas and nationals.

      -too much partying with teammates who finish after leagues maybe?

      for the miaa in the past few years, a lot of the national contenders really weren’t in any sort of heavy competition at miaas. i think that getting over this problem will be not just training hard for nationals but training to race and compete like one crazy mother will do it

      for example take captain insano’s 10×50 on 3:00 all under 22
      -i think instead he should do 2×50 on 10:00 and just get crazy style psyched up for them and go 21.0 or faster and get ready to race the shit out of the field at nationals…..i know he had the 800 free relay and the individual 200 to swim at nationals, but the bread and butter events are/were the 100 and the 50 and at that point there should be focus on the events that could be won…..not to say that there’s no need for longer sets but there does need to be a race style mentality that i think is getting lost among many miaas swimmers heading into nats (see all wash U swims-those boys show up to race)
      -he did also have to swim on 4 relays so that definitely would add up, but those talented enough to make nationals and with the potential to win a title can handle this pretty easily…and with teammates racing with you it’s always easier to get psyched up

    • #29345
      silentp
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      Because of the way nationals is selected, you have to look at the total number of heats for the entire day/meet. Looking at the number of heats in one event is irrelevent.

      It was an example. It’s pointless to slower the times unless, as Billy Gilmore pointed out, it makes someone sleep better at night knowing they got a B cut when in reality it doesn’t matter unless it’s a time that gets in, or they are on a relay that goes.

    • #29346
      maverick1
      Member

      at least we’re all part of a sport that isn’t dirty and full of stupid dopers and roid ragers

      Floyd Landis Tests Positive

    • #29347
      The Treat
      Member

      @Insight wrote:

      To Treat, you said that you always have a choice on what you are going to focus on. True to an extent if you want to be seen as a selfish swimmer.

      i may not have been as clear as i should have been in my last post. i said in and earlier post that in the beginning of the year, the team decides its goals. it doesn’t make it selfish if there is a different commitment level throughout the team. if me and 6 or 7 other guys decide to step up and do 4 mornings a week, extra dry land, and make countless other sacrifices to reach their goals while others are putting in the minimum effort required, that doesnt seem selfish to me. it just seems that their goals are in different places. this is just one case though. obviously your team is different.

    • #29348
      N Dynamite
      Member

      One thing that seems to be overlooked here is that each team/individual is going to have different circumstances to deal with in regard to tapering for conference. Do you really want to do a partial taper for one or two guys when you have relays on the bubble? Last year I’m sure USCGA felt pretty confident with their 6:51 800 time, but they didn’t get in. There is just no way of knowing before a conference meet (unless you already have an A cut or very close to one) that your relay or all of the individuals on the relay will get in. With schools across the nation getting better it is harder to get relays in – thus it’s harder to say that you’re not going to taper for conference. Only those individuals who are truly “lone wolves” (by far the most talented on their team) and those schools that send a full team (or close to it – Kenyon, Emory, JHU, etc) have the luxury of waiting for Nationals to fully taper everyone.

    • #29349
      swim5599
      Member

      In terms of my comment about the 5 weeks between conf and nat being ideal for getting faster. Someone said that there is no way I could convince them that a double taper works better than just swimming through and tapering for nats. A lot of things can happen with those 5 weeks. If a swimmer does not rest and is so totally broken down that they can barely train, you are going to have a hard time getting them ready for nationals. Now lets say you rest for two weeks for the conf meet, come back totally refreshed and ready to train for three weeks you should be ready to go come nats. I just have always believed that resting a little for the conf meet is really important.

    • #29350
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      Now lets say you rest for two weeks for the conf meet, come back totally refreshed and ready to train for three weeks you should be ready to go come nats. I just have always believed that resting a little for the conf meet is really important.

      Because you were a conference level swimmer (not national level) am I correct to assume your strategy was to rest for a duel meet 5 weeks before conference.

      Also, a full double taper which is what were orignally discussing, and “resting a little 5 weeks out” are not the same thing and is quite a retreat on your part. For reference, your original quote was:
      “I honestly hate to bring this up again, but their is no reason why you can’t be fully tapered at your conf meet and then come back and swim much faster 5 weeks later.”

      Can we assume that you didn’t really mean that and that infact you believe that the ideal is not to do a full taper for conference but instead, at most, “rest a little.”

    • #29351
      silentp
      Member

      This may just sound like the easy way out but doesn’t it completely depend on the swimmer and on the program? Some swimmers can do a full taper, come back 5 weeks later and be dominant no matter who they swim for. Others are very fast, but care more about their conference meet than NCAAs (example: Gustavus). Some of the programs put more emphasis on conferences than NCAAs. Kalamazoo in the past would be an example of this, however going forward I could see things somewhat differently.
      Overall, i think there are too many variables to say one thing positively, or another. It could even be as simple as the difference between the Holland Aquatic Center and the U of Minn pool, or U of C pool. Where would YOU get more excited to swim?

    • #29352
      el radio
      Member

      i agree with silentp on this one. I believe that the coach has a lot to do with how well a swimmer will perform at nats, but i also believe that it depends on the swimmer and whether or not he has the ability and drive to want to go faster, just as he did at conf. meet.

      For me, making it to nats (extremely unlikely unless I juice or something) would be amazing, and God knows that i would bust my ass to be just as fast as i was at conference meet. I think the biggest factor is whether or not the swimmer is burnt out or not by the end of the season, and whether they have the mental toughness to go through some grueling training before before nat’s

    • #29353
      99 Red
      Member

      On Mental Toughness and the transition from conference to nationals.

      More than any other sport, swimming is all about the practicing. This is because, as you are water cooled and supported, and the workouts are generally low stress on your joints (legions of shoulder problems aside), you can work harder in swimming than you can in any other sport.
      Because you can work harder in swimming, if you want to be successful, you have to work harder.
      All with me right?
      OK, so if training is so important, if what goes on in practice makes up such a huge percentage of what happens in the season, what happens when you change the nature of practice for the last few weeks?
      Your almost playing a different sport. I don’t think it is fair to say to the kind of person who does well in a team environment that they aren’t mentally tough if they don’t succeed in the transition to an almost solo training environment.
      Of course, if your a lone wolf, your probably used to training at a different level than your teammates. This transition isn’t so hard. But if your coming from a strong team environment for the last 6 months, and suddenly your training in your own lane, your being asked to show some different skills than those skills that got you to Nationals in the first place.

      If you were a swimmer in college, you know it is a team sport. You might be alone in your lane, but it took the entire team to get you there. Switching from big team practice to small team practice means changing from the practice that got you to swim the fastest you’ve ever gone to a different method that you hardly ever use. Some people are good at this, some aren’t. Mental make up certainly plays a big part in the transition, but is that the same as mental toughness?

    • #29354
      Derek
      Member

      99 Red,

      Your driving me crazy because of you’re lack of distiction between your and you’re.

    • #29355
      iamdonovan
      Member

      Derek, if you’re going to bust someone out for their grammar, I think you should be sure that yours is impeccable first.

      I don’t think it’s necessarily unfair to say that someone isn’t mentally tough because they can’t handle the transition from swimming with a team to swimming solo, or with one or two others. If it is in fact a mental matter, to go from a team environment to a solo environment, and still perform at the same level in practice, then being unable to handle that transition would be a lack of mental toughness. Then again, I am speaking as a person who has only ever had a double taper once, in high school, and it was a two week gap instead of a five week gap. That said, I still dropped time from conference meet to state meet.

      I realize that this post might be a bit disorganized and jumbled, but my friend just got home from Iraq, and I went to sleep about 7 hours ago (I think).

    • #29356
      Derek
      Member

      donovon,

      I apologize for the attempt at irony in a post to this website. I will be careful so as not to offend your sensibilities in the future.

      Graciously yours,

      Derek

    • #29357
      The Treat
      Member

      @iamdonovan wrote:

      Derek, if you’re going to bust someone out for their grammar, I think you should be sure that yours is impeccable first.

      I don’t think it’s necessarily unfair to say that someone isn’t mentally tough because they can’t handle the transition from swimming with a team to swimming solo, or with one or two others. If it is in fact a mental matter, to go from a team environment to a solo environment, and still perform at the same level in practice, then being unable to handle that transition would be a lack of mental toughness. Then again, I am speaking as a person who has only ever had a double taper once, in high school, and it was a two week gap instead of a five week gap. That said, I still dropped time from conference meet to state meet.

      I realize that this post might be a bit disorganized and jumbled, but my friend just got home from Iraq, and I went to sleep about 7 hours ago (I think).

      he switched your and you’re on purpose in that post. i think that was pretty obvious.

    • #29358
      iamdonovan
      Member

      He also spelled my name wrong… jerk.

      Derek, you should know that we don’t have any room for humor in discussions like these – it’s swimming, for Pete’s sake! And as we all know, there’s nothing funny about swimming.

    • #29359
      Derek
      Member

      @iamdonovan wrote:

      He also spelled my name wrong… jerk.

      OH! Sorry man, your buddy Terrell told me that you liked it better that way.

    • #29360
      swim5599
      Member

      The coach plays a pretty big role in what goes on between conf and nats. I think that in some ways swimmers take on certain characteristics of their coach. IF your coach is mentally tough than chances are you can handle the pressure of re resting for the nat meet.

      Assume whatever the hell you want about me, and what kind of caliber swimmer I was. If a 59 plus breaststroker is avg to you than I guess I was avg.

    • #29361
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      Assume whatever the hell you want about me, and what kind of caliber swimmer I was. If a 59 plus breaststroker is avg to you than I guess I was avg.

      I am using use as an illustration, not picking on you as a swimmer. In fact, your best time in your best event is comparativly better (perhaps equal) to my best time in my best event. All I am saying is that according to your theory, Conference level swimmers like us should be tapering for duel meets 5 weeks out from conference. Don’t take things so personally. I enjoy talking with you.

    • #29362
      swim5599
      Member

      My original point was there is no reason why someone could not go significantly faster 5 weeks after fully resting for their conf meet. That’s all I was saying

    • #29363
      maverick1
      Member

      and cheadle is saying that it’s not ideal to taper 5 weeks after another taper

    • #29364
      stiles
      Member

      I agree with the fact that it is not ideal. It works for some and not for other as we have seen times all over the board at the National meets at all the levels.

      I’d like to go back to the comment about swimmers taking on characteristics of their coaches. I think this is untrue. It is more the coach’s ability to correct motivate and mental prepare the swimmers. IF this is done, then the swimmers will be able to perform. A good coach will be able to see how different swimmers react to different kinds of motivation and use that to taylor the rapport that he/she has with the athlete.

      Since the coaches personality is not the same as all of his swimmers, it would be naive to think that all the swimmers take on the “mental toughness” of the coach. I believe that could be a mistake of some rookie cookies; that is, assuming that all swimmers react like themselves thus treating the team like that.

    • #29365
      swim5599
      Member

      Ok, but my reason for saying this had to do with the fact that I have seen swimmers who were not mentally tough become pretty tough when they were swimming for coaches who were this way. I have to believe that the coach has something to do with that. It does not just happen.

    • #29366

      @swim5599 wrote:

      Ok, but my reason for saying this had to do with the fact that I have seen swimmers who were not mentally tough become pretty tough when they were swimming for coaches who were this way. I have to believe that the coach has something to do with that. It does not just happen.

      I agree with stiles, how someone responds to influence from above, whether in the pool or in anything else, depends on the person. On the other hand, if a guy is the type that’s going to respond well to a tough-minded coach, he might do just as well if he was minus a coach who exuded mental toughness but plus a group (however small) of hard-core upperclassmen teammates. If he’s not mentally tough naturally, he’d want at least one or the other. It’d be awfully tough get to a “do I need a double taper?” situation on a regular basis without having either.

    • #29367
      swim5599
      Member

      I guess my point in general is that a coach can have such a huge impact on a swimmer. I mean this both ways, if the coach is great he/she will have a great impact on the swimmer, but in contrast if the coach does not have a clue, he/she can have a very negative impact on an athlete

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