Kzoo HOF

Remember, it took Robbins 3 years to get in, and he was far more accomplished than any of those guys.

Nick Duda was the last MIAA swimmer to be top 8 in 3 events at NCAAs, which i have to assume is a short list anyway. He was my vote.

Also, unlike a Hope HOF, K swimmers should really only be included with 1 other men’s sport, tennis, the others are just sad. If you compare the accomplishments of Evan and Domin against those of the football players being inducted, they should also be in easily, but we’ll see.

@silentp wrote:

Nick Duda was the last MIAA swimmer to be top 8 in 3 events at NCAAs, which i have to assume is a short list anyway. He was my vote.

Also, unlike a Hope HOF, K swimmers should really only be included with 1 other men’s sport, tennis, the others are just sad. If you compare the accomplishments of Evan and Domin against those of the football players being inducted, they should also be in easily, but we’ll see.

I really do agree (actually not entirely, Duda didn’t make top 8 in the 400 IM), I am just telling you how it is going to be. Domin and Evan won’t get a sniff for a long time.

What are the profiles, stat lines, or athletic resume’s like of the athletes that get in infront of these guys? That’s too bad.

To give you an example, I was a little pissed when this gal from my class was inducted years before me:

Susie (Anderson) Dubeck ’98 – Soccer
Inducted October 15, 2004

All MIAA (1995, 1998); Two-Time Varsity Soccer Most Valuable Player; All-Region (1998); Record Holder for assists in a season (23).

@Low Tide wrote:

To give you an example, I was a little pissed when this gal from my class was inducted years before me:

Susie (Anderson) Dubeck ’98 – Soccer
Inducted October 15, 2004

All MIAA (1995, 1998); Two-Time Varsity Soccer Most Valuable Player; All-Region (1998); Record Holder for assists in a season (23).

I think it is really difficult to compare team sports with individual sports. She may very well have been as prolific in her sport as you in swimming. Take a look at Hope’s all time All-American list. The swimmers take up half of the page.

My point: swimming has so many events, each an opportunity to prove one’s self in a very specific scenario (distance vs. sprint, stoke, relays). Soccer only has goals, assists and individual awards like player of the year, which swimming also has equally as much. First, Second, Third All American slots in soccer would seem to be much more difficult than First All-American and Honorable Mention in swimming.

For all you know, her assist record is just as good as your 48 in the 100 fly. How can you prove otherwise?

Not that I want to go down this road, but for ALL d3 sports, the women’s brand is a little inferior to the men’s. The reason I make that blanket statement is that the number of scholarships available in the d1 ranks is much higher for women than it is for men. So more of the top end and semi-top end talent is steered towards D1.

One argument you could make is that, on the whole, swimming for men is inferior than it is for women because Matt Leinert and hundreds of other football players would have been a studs in the pool. So while it is true that there are a lof men who swim D3 when their equivalent female counterparts are swimming D1 (equivalent meaning, say, 1 or 2 junior cuts), you could also argue that the D1 female swimmers counterparts are actually the backup quarterbacks at TCU.

That aside, I feel pretty confident saying that the best player on a middle of the pack (at best) D3 soccer team is not as good as someone who qualified for the US Olympic Team Trials. In fact, it is not even close.

How can you prove otherwise?

I will arm wrestle her any time.

As to the original question, I believe Duda should be inducted his first elgible year (ala Jeff Walker, Brian Miller, John Latham and Jeff Gorton) and then Domin and Whitbeck should make it in later years.

That aside, I feel pretty confident saying that the best player on a middle of the pack (at best) D3 soccer team is not as good as someone who qualified for the US Olympic Team Trials. In fact, it is not even close.

I think you can decently compare by considering how many individuals qualify for swimming events like senior nationals, olympic trials, etc… and then compare it to how many individuals play professionally in a more traditional sport.

I think it is a given that Rob Peel and Jeff Gorton (both of who placed top 16 at the olympic trials) would both be starters (perhaps even stars) on a pro team if they played, say… football. Josh Boss might be a backup and someone like me might be toiling in a minor/european league or arena football.

I’ve never looked at the numbers, so I have no idea if I am even remotely accurate.

@DonCheadle wrote:

@silentp wrote:

Nick Duda was the last MIAA swimmer to be top 8 in 3 events at NCAAs, which i have to assume is a short list anyway. He was my vote.

I really do agree (actually not entirely, Duda didn’t make top 8 in the 400 IM), I am just telling you how it is going to be. Domin and Evan won’t get a sniff for a long time.

My mistake, i thought he did but he did not.

I agree with you that they won’t get a sniff for a long time.

I do think Coach Kent has a decent shot in ’08 though 🙂

I don’t really think she deserves a HOF spot more than you, I was just sparking debate mostly. I am most comfortable when a lot of people disagree with me.

In fact, I think swimming deserves half the page. If you look at the amount of work a swimmer does in one season, and I am talking Joules and BTU’s here, we stagger over any other division 3 sport.

The thing that gets me is Susie Anderson wasn’t even All-MIAA her sophomore and junior years. Not only that, she wasn’t the best player on her team as a senior, Erin Killian was.

On a somewhat unrelated note…there are a lot of people out there that were All American’s but never All MIAA.

Once or twice a decade a football *star* from the 1950’s makes it in because he led the team in tackles. Coincidentally this guys family gives a lot of money to the school.

This is how I will get into the Hall of Fame: In 2040 I’ll have Robbins nominate me as a 3 Time All American, MIAA record holder (400 Medley Relay, and actually I didn’t swim it, but coach Kent forgot to change the names on the card from prelims [can you believe that only 10 years ago we stillused cards] and thus I got credit for Sean Smith’s swim).

And Insano, it was pretty obvious that you were just trying to spark up some conversation.

Oh, and Don K, I am exagerating and I do think the selection comittee does a pretty good job.

Tide, quit picking on poor little Susie! she made the HOF before you did because she’s cuter, more likeable, and didn’t steal hamburger patties from the USTA tournament and hold 4am barbecues on her porch.

Back on topic, I can’t believe Domin has zero votes (so far). Domin is the more accomplished swimmer over Evan (even though Evan would have kicked Domin’s ass in everything except sprint free and maybe the 100 fly). If I were to rank the three in their order of HOF induction, it would be Duda, Domin, and then Bunny. But I would agree that Domin and Evan are long shots, while Duda is a probable.

This Fall’s class has already been decided. By the way, this will be the first year for teams to be inducted into the HofF. Have to be out 10 years as opposed to the five of the individual candidate. Minimum of a conference championship. Performance on a National level is a plus.

Back to the individuals, timing isn’t always perfect. As you can imagine other……stuff…..enters in but I have yet to see anyone buy their way in. We keep a pretty good eye out for that. Mostly what we lack on some of the old one’s is comparible data.

Regardless, we’ve had a nice run lately inducting swimmers and divers despite a delay here or there. Stay tuned…….

What team got inducted? And this leads to another question:

What Kzoo Swim team would be the first to be nominated? I would nominate the team from the 95-96 season. We ended the long Hope run (in fact hope placed 2nd at Nationals the prvious year), placed 6th at Nationals, had 11 current or future All-Americans. I think I’ll nominate the team next year.

I’ll definitely nominate you in 2040 😉

I’m obviously partial to the 95-96 team as well, but while I will admit those early 2000 teams were slightly better, the win that year was a special one… considering we had lost to Hope for so many years and established K as the favorite at leagues and nationals for years to come.

…there are a lot of people out there that were All American’s but never All MIAA.

Swimmers???

Back on topic, I can’t believe Domin has zero votes (so far). Domin is the more accomplished swimmer over Evan (even though Evan would have kicked Domin’s ass in everything except sprint free and maybe the 100 fly). If I were to rank the three in their order of HOF induction, it would be Duda, Domin, and then Bunny. But I would agree that Domin and Evan are long shots, while Duda is a probable.

I would give Domin the slight edge. Neither ever had it all come together at Nationals, but Domin did place higher and was on more relays. Evan always swam decent, but I kept expecting him to have a breakout nationals one of those years, like Duda his senior year.

It’s early, but a good discussion for the off-season:
Should Tony Holt make it into the HoF?

@DonCheadle wrote:

What Kzoo Swim team would be the first to be nominated?

I am also biased, but I’d say the ’01-’02 team for having an individual national champion, several all americans, depth of guys who had or were very close to B cuts and didn’t go to nationals, and also dominated by nearly 150 points an MIAA meet featuring 3 teams who went on to place in the top 10 at nationals.

To the Tony Holt question, I go back and forth on this, but would say No because he didn’t compete for all 4 years. I understand there are probably chicks in the HoF that went on study abroad for a year, but I don’t think kthey should be in either.

@silentp wrote:

I am also biased, but I’d say the ’01-’02 team for having an individual national champion, several all americans, depth of guys who had or were very close to B cuts and didn’t go to nationals, and also dominated by nearly 150 points an MIAA meet featuring 3 teams who went on to place in the top 10 at nationals.

This is an interesting question. I believe that the best team I was a part of was our ’00 squad. That team had the highest MIAA point total out of all teams dating back to ’96 (couldn’t find data before that), almost breaking the 700 point barrier. It also had 11 All-MIAA swimmers which is more than the other 2 teams in question. However, at a national level, it failed to make the top 10 (12th) vs. the 6th place performances of the other teams. It also had less All-Americans than the ’02 team and the same amount as the ’96 team (although Garrett was an All-American on that team, so I’m not sure that should count).

So, Don, which will the committee weigh the most: dominance of the MIAA or performance at the national level? Probably a combination of both, but I wonder which will carry more significance in the decisionmaking process…

Nationals should be considered enough that when there are five 6th place teams, a 12th place team would probably not get in before them.

In just about every tangible way the ’02 team was better than the ’96 (asides from the ’02 team losing to Hope at Nationals), but the ’96 team had the big intangibles. I was at both league meets, and the ’96 league meet win just meant so much more to the swimmers, alumni and coaches. Up until the mid-90s no class at K went all four years without a win at league meet, and those alumni from those classes wanted it just as bad as the current swimmers did (if not more). It just meant more than the ’02 win.

If Ellis, Dekker and Espinosa lead this team back to another league meet championship, you will see a similar atmosphere.

The Top 5 things tanglibles:
1) Place at Nats
2) Place at MIAA (which will always be 1st in this discussion)
3) School Records
4) Individual All-American Honors that year
5) Relay only A-A (and this is slighlty less important that #4)

THe 1996 school records:
400 Medley Relay
400 Free Relay
200 Breast
100 Back
400 IM
200 IM
200 Back

One thing to remember about the ’02 squad is that our 2nd best swimmer, Jud, never swam well at nationals, so that had an impact on the NCAA performance.

Also, both of those teams were dominant at MIAAs, but the ’02 team would have broken the 700 pt barrier had it been swimming at either championship instead of the ’02 championship (just a hunch, but i bet i’m right) because of the amazing depth.

Miller and I figured this out a while ago based on a normalized national performance of the four 6th place teams (12 place scoring, throw out sprint relays, throw out points for 13th-16th depending on prelim place, corrections for 7th, 8th, etc.). The 2002 team accumulated the most points (112) followed by the 1980 team (93, our actual point total). The 1996 and 1993 teams were under that I don’t recall the totals. Miller?