Kalamazoo Olivet

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    • #12749
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      I think Kalamazoo could take this meet. It has been a few years since the hornets have won this duel, thoughts.

    • #39769
      breakdancer
      Member

      rudy you’re right, K could take this meet. K showed us this weekend that they can put the things together to win. They have the depth to match olivet and their splits were constantly faster than Olivet’s, which could lead to more first places. However, as we have seen that the past two league meets, their diving will win them the meet.

    • #39770
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      but dont you think that Kalamazoo dominence in fly, could overcome this detail

    • #39771
      breakdancer
      Member

      it very well could. but Olivet still has a lot of depth(yury,koji,johnson) in thos events which could throw off K’s. Then with the addition of davis in the distance events, and both jaffee’s, its goin to be hard to get points in the ditance events. It will be a close meet; where anything can happen.

    • #39772
      Negrodamus
      Member

      keep in mind that K now has a diver who was injured this weekend. He will be diving against Olivet and that should help to even out the playing field a little in the diving events.

    • #39773
      silentp
      Member

      Here’s how i see winner playing out… Depth will be important, but duals are won or lost with event winners,

      200 MR – K (maybe leave 1 of the guys off to save for the 400 FR?)

      1000 – Stephen Davis (Back and better than ever, Julio will need to stop a 1-2-3 Olivet finish)

      200 – Fleming over Yury (Yury didn’t impress at the relay meet like last year)

      100 back – Ellis (good fight for 2nd here)

      100 breast – Fonsy (olivet will need 2-3 here)

      200 fly – Dekker (olivet will need to stop a 1-2-3 finish here)

      50 free – ? (ellis might be the favorite, but this is wide open)

      1M – olivet (K will need arbour to come up big and finish high)

      100 – Fleming (looked good, but those guys from olivet will push him, Fonsy might make a showing here too after his 49.00 split)

      200 back – Ellis (again, great battle for 2nd)

      200 breast – Meisner (Booms got him at last year’s dual, can he do it again? Maybe, but this will be a 3 way race)

      500 – Davis (Julio will need to stop a 1-2-3 Olivet finish)

      100 fly – Dekker (Greiner, Groth and co will be trying for the 1-2-3, but Koji/Rafe could stop that or even win it)

      3M – see comments for 1M

      200 IM – Yury vs Dekker, Yury has been better in season but wasn’t impressive, should be good

      400 FR – Olivet might take this one, depending on how K does the 200 MR, but should be a great race

      Wins:
      K: 9
      O: 6
      ?: 2

      Obviously more questions than that, but this one should be very good, because even with those numbers, the depth still falls on Olivet’s side.

    • #39774
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      Here’s how i see winner playing out… Depth will be important, but duals are won or lost with event winners,

      200 MR – K (maybe leave 1 of the guys off to save for the 400 FR?)

      Does: Dekker to Fonzi to Greiner to Bazzel win this race?

    • #39775
      silentp
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      Here’s how i see winner playing out… Depth will be important, but duals are won or lost with event winners,

      200 MR – K (maybe leave 1 of the guys off to save for the 400 FR?)

      Does: Dekker to Fonzi to Greiner to Bazzel win this race?

      If you switch it up that way, you might as well put Brower out front to save Dekker, they had nearly identical splits for backstroke at the relay meet. It would probably win, but wouldn’t be guaranteed.

      I’d guess they are more likely to try to 1-2 it than rest a guy.

    • #39776
      SwexasTim
      Member

      I have nothing productive to add except I agree w/ silentp on the 1-2 strategy.

    • #39777
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      i think someone needs to try and score it out

    • #39778
      SwexasTim
      Member

      agreed, this meet is on saturday, lets fill up this forum w/ bs until it actually goes down.

      Normally I would say that Olivet’s depth will outweigh the top end speed of Kzoo, but I think this meet really comes down to two things:

      1) K’s diver

      2) Who can swim faster tired/Who is less run-down. I don’t know where either of these teams are but I had to literally help a girl out of the pool today b/c she is so run-down she couldn’t climb out. Oops 😈

    • #39779
      silentp
      Member

      @SwexasTim wrote:

      I had to literally help a girl out of the pool today b/c she is so run-down she couldn’t climb out. Oops 😈

      Will you be wearing a kilt at MIAAs? Have you learned the bagpipes yet? These questions seem much more pressing to me.

    • #39780
      El Duderino
      Member

      Also, can you please have a Haggis tent set up on deck so your swimmers can recharge after their swims at MIAAs. That wouldn’t just be awesome, it would be legendary.

    • #39781
      iamdonovan
      Member

      If he puts up a haggis tent, I’m so stealing it. Yum.

    • #39782
      stewie
      Member

      I’ll go with Olivet.

      2 med- K
      1000-Davis
      200-Busscher
      1 bk- Ellis
      1 br- Fonzy
      2 fly- Yury
      50- Ellis
      1 fr- Powers/Voss, someone from Olivet
      2 bk- Ellis
      2 br- Meisner
      500- Davis
      1 fly- Dekker
      2 IM- Yury
      4 fr- Olivet
      Olivet wins- 8 K wins- 6

      Not including boards here but I’ll bank on Yury swimming well in season historically and K swimming slow in duals. Taber’s coaching may change how Olivet swims in season but I’m assuming K will be broken down as well. Who knows what Busscher is capable of as well. The kid swam probably the toughest day 2 lineup at MIAAs last year and went amazing times in all his events (4IM and three 200’s). Picking up Davis will play a crucial factor for Olivet (might win them the meet).

    • #39783
      SwexasTim
      Member

      I will not be wearing a kilt or playing bagpipes, though the haggis isn’t a bad idea.

      I was going to have Mel Gibson come in his braveheart attire and do a scene but I had to cancel b/c of the no skits rule. Oh well, maybe another time.

    • #39784
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Couple things I question here, fleming was a 148 at the relay meet, so he and busscher are probably neck and neck there. Also Dekker and Yury in the 2 IM. Ellis was fast at the relay meet but never count out voss or powers in the 50.

      My question is does K try to 1-2 the medleys or do they have enough to put in just enough to win the medley to compete in the 400 free relay?

      Do they save a swim for ellis or fonzi in the 400 free? I think they can still win the medley without ellis. That would leave ellis-fleming-greiner-bazzell for the 400. Is that enough to win it, I would think enough to make it close, but I’m not sure. If its not does fonzi go both relays and breastrokes that makes K’s 400 free relay very strong, maybe even a slight favorite, but like I said I really have no idea.

    • #39785
      Low Tide
      Member

      Hopefully it’s already over by then, but I think K has to go for the 400 FR… spirit of competition and all that. Kzoo is just too top heavy to lose a dual meet at the MIAA level… Hope has a better chance than Olivet, IMO.

      This new dual meet format is greek to me — can they swim 2 ind. and 2 relays now? 1 relay and 3 ind? So the IM and MR still alternate between long and short?

    • #39786
      silentp
      Member

      I think Stewie may very well be correct in his outcome prediction and many picks, but no chance Busscher wins the 200. Fleming will go 1:47 (or faster) and win by at least a second, probably 2. Feel free to quote me on this after the meet if you’d like.

      With Fonsy’s 49.00 split last weekend, I think he has to be in it, and maybe a favorite at this point for that event. Fleming should also be fast in the 100, assuming he swims it.

      As for who doubles on relays, etc, I think it will go,
      Fonsy: 1breast, 1free, both relays
      Ellis: 1 and 2back, 50, medley
      Fleming: 200, 50, 100, free relay

      The 400 FR could be Fonsy, Fleming, Dekker, Hennigar or Entwistle
      Medlies would be Ellis, Fonsy, Greiner, Bazzel & Brower, Booms, Groth, Parker or Entwistle (probably not enough to 1-2 but would be if Olivet risks something there)

      @Low Tide wrote:

      This new dual meet format is greek to me — can they swim 2 ind. and 2 relays now? 1 relay and 3 ind? So the IM and MR still alternate between long and short?

      2 ind and 2 relays or 1 relay and 3 ind. IM is usually a 200, but can be a 400 if both coaches agree, medley is short, free is long (typically, although again, both coaches could agree to change that)

    • #39787
      SwexasTim
      Member

      So is dekker not going the 2 IM or is he going the it and then right into the 4 free? I agree Fleming beats Busscher.

      Have we given up on Fonzi’s 2 br?

    • #39788
      silentp
      Member

      @SwexasTim wrote:

      So is dekker not going the 2 IM or is he going the it and then right into the 4 free?

      Good point, didn’t consider that. Probably not… now I don’t know (not that I did before, but I could pretend better). Maybe switch Dekker and Greiner on relays?

      @SwexasTim wrote:

      Have we given up on Fonzi’s 2 br?

      Given up, no, but Booms should do better and Fonsy is more helpful in the 100 free. We all remember Booms winning the 200 breast at this dual last year (much different time of year, but still, Meisner is not a dual meet guy even when the rest of the team was), he could do it again.

    • #39789
      SwexasTim
      Member

      I personally like K going out and winning the medley w/out ellis. Having him in the backs, 50 and last relay. The fr backstroker, fonzi, greiner, and fleming should be enough to win yes?

    • #39790
      stewie
      Member

      Just a reminder Olivet went 3:13 in the 4 fr against Hope last year at this time in the season. Obviously, a new coach will probably change things but everyone on that relay is back…Voss, Powers, Yury, Busscher. They will be slower than 3:13 I think but they had the ability to do it last year. What do we think the winning time will be? splits anyone?

      I know no one is talking about it, and maybe it’s too late but what about the Cal v. Albion dual. No chance for Albion? If Krone can get things together for the 1000 and 500. Gunderson takes the 50, maybe a miraculous win the 100. Then, their new breastroker takes both the 1 and 2 br. Maybe closer than people think or I’m I talking nonsense?

    • #39791
      DonCheadle
      Member

      FYI: I bet Olivet ends up swimming quite well.

    • #39792
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      Just a reminder Olivet went 3:13 in the 4 fr against Hope last year at this time in the season. Obviously, a new coach will probably change things but everyone on that relay is back…Voss, Powers, Yury, Busscher. They will be slower than 3:13 I think but they had the ability to do it last year. What do we think the winning time will be? splits anyone?

      I think they’ll be around 3:15 or 3:16. I don’t know split, but would guess K, with their top guys swimming it, and maybe a 4th wild card, should be slightly slower than that or around the same.

      @stewie wrote:

      I know no one is talking about it, and maybe it’s too late but what about the Cal v. Albion dual. No chance for Albion? If Krone can get things together for the 1000 and 500. Gunderson takes the 50, maybe a miraculous win the 100. Then, their new breastroker takes both the 1 and 2 br. Maybe closer than people think or I’m I talking nonsense?

      Never thought about it, but you make some really good arguments. I don’t see the upset happening, but agree on closer than expected.

      Spread on Olivet/K:
      O by 10

      Spread on Albion/Calvin:
      Calvin 30

    • #39793
      Low Tide
      Member

      I would have Dekker swim back on the medley (or fr backstroker), swim the 200 IM and have Ellis on the FR, not Dekker. That FR should win.

    • #39794
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I have always thought that this is what makes duel meets fun, trying to pick out the best lineup.

      I posed that question earlier, about Dekker doing back. I think that does make sense.

      To 1-2 the relays:

      A1 Relay: Brower – Fonzi – Greiner – Flemming
      A2 Relay: Ellis – Booms – Dekker – Bazzel

      Free Relay:
      No Dekker or Ellis

      I would swim Flemming in both relays, the 100 and 200 and leave the 50 to Fonzi and Bazzel.

      The reason I would try to 1-2 the medlies is because that should guarantee you “win” overall the relay point distribution. If they win one relay and you win the other then it is a wash. I don’t know that you can win the free relay so why not go for the 1-2 in the medley.

    • #39795
      Stevo
      Member

      I will predict a Olivet win. I have no facts to back this prediction other than this would be a great win for Coach Taber.

      Go Comets!

    • #39796
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Stevo maybe your post should have ended w/ “this will be a great win for coach taber” I mean really? To actually say “Go Comets,” I thought better of you Stevo, I guess I was wrong. πŸ˜€

      Cheadle, I get what you are saying, but I think Olivet will be tired and K has to do more than break even in the swimming. I say go for the win, and go for both relays. With the type of team Zoo has its all about winning events and minimizing your loses. Stewie (i thought) gave a fairly accurate portrait of how the meet will go as far as wins and loses. And that has 8 Olivet wins to K’s 6 without diving. Plus olivet has the depth so K needs to at a minimum reverse those numbers. I think for a K win you need to win both relays and either fleming has to win the 200 or dekker needs to win the IM. That gives Kzoo 2 relay wins and and 6 indies to Olivets 6 plus diving. That might be enough to fight off the depth.

    • #39797
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Ok I did a quick scoring assuming some things. I have K going 1-3 in the medley and winning the 4 free w/ olivet going 2-3. Then I assumed (again rough estimates) that every time K won the event they would go 1-4 and for every olivet win they went 1-3-4 (again rough estimations of OC’s depth). With K stealing the 200 and the IM and winning 8 indies to Olivets 6 and the relay scoring I stated above I have Olivet up 10 w/out diving.

      Now this is a lot of assumptions, the good thing for Kzoo is that they have lots of room to move in the events they win (under my misguided logic) where Olivet does not have that same luxury.

      Also I agree w/ Silentp/Stewie for the Knights/Brits matchup. I would say Albion could do some serious reaching for 9 wins: 50, 100 (not likely), 500, 1000, both br, both boards, and the medley (even less likely, Albion was half a second behind Calvin at the relay meet but only got a 28 mid out of their br). If the meet was closer I’d tell Krone to cruise the thousand so he could put up a fight in the 200, not sure if he knows what cruise is though.

      Thoughts?

    • #39798
      Sgt. Johnson
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      I will predict a Olivet win. I have no facts to back this prediction other than this would be a great win for Coach Taber.

      Go Comets!

      HMS Blasphemy………..

    • #39799
      silentp
      Member

      I got an update from someone with no details, just the score,

      K 130, Olivet 114 after the 100 fly

      3M, 2IM and 400 FR remain… looks like it will come down to the 400 FR, which favors Olivet.

    • #39800
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Results are up, Kzoo wins by 16:

      http://www.olivetcollege.edu/athletics/1103OLKZ.HTM

    • #39801
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      olivet only took 4 events

    • #39802
      Derek
      Member

      A few thoughts while looking through the results…

      Fleming and Busscher had a great race in the 200 free. Fleming outsplit Busscher at the end to win the race.

      It’s fun to go 1-2 in the 100 breast, but what happened to Meisner? And Kovacs?

      Very solid time out of Dekker in the 200 fly. Looking at his splits, he swam a pretty smart and overall solid race.

      Tie in the 100 free is pretty cool – best part is that Fleming is listed first on the results.

      Ellis and Brower – the new dynamic duo in backstroke?

      200 breast confirms it – what’s up with Meisner? Great swim from Booms.

      53.8 is really impressive out of Dekker in the 100 fly. And then he turned around after the diving break and went 2:01 in the 200 IM. I’ll go on record saying he is going to have a phenomenal season.

      Kalamazoo had 4 guys go 49. on the last relay… awesome!

      Clearly, I was paying more attention to Kalamazoo than Olivet.

    • #39803
      Milhouse
      Member

      Nice win for the Hornets, good to see that they can bring something to dual meets again. I guess they just had to graduate a couple of lazy asses… πŸ˜†

      Judging from some of the times, Olivet did look like they were hurting somewhat. But I’m not sure that an on-his-game Meisner could have beaten Booms anyway. BTW, Booms tied Meisner’s pool record in the 2br.

    • #39804
      stewie
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      FYI: I bet Olivet ends up swimming quite well.

      haha…looks like they are training differently this year. The same 4 fr that went 3:13 this time last year went 3:20 on Sat for Olivet. So now will K have an undefeated dual meet season in the MIAA, but get third at the MIAA championships? Has that ever happened before?

    • #39805
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      So now will K have an undefeated dual meet season in the MIAA, but get third at the MIAA championships? Has that ever happened before?

      I doubt that has happened before because having three good teams in the league is a new thing. I also doubt that it will happen this year.

    • #39806
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      haha…looks like they are training differently this year. The same 4 fr that went 3:13 this time last year went 3:20 on Sat for Olivet. So now will K have an undefeated dual meet season in the MIAA, but get third at the MIAA championships? Has that ever happened before?

      It wasn’t exactly the same relay since Yury didn’t swim the event right before it last year, and if he hadn’t, the finish might have changed too… who knows.

      Also, Cheadle is right, it won’t happen this year that any team goes undefeated during the dual meet season and gets 3rd at MIAAs, but if it does, the team with the most individual qualifiers and best placers at NCAAs would make a likely candidate.

    • #39807
      stewie
      Member

      I agree Yury might have been more tired for the relay but he also swam the 1000 against Hope at that meet last yr. However, I think we can all agree Olivet is swimming more tired this year than last year in duals based on the relay meet and Sat.

      So, if guys don’t think a team will go undefeated in the MIAA duals and finish third in the MIAA championship meet, then do you think K is going to finish second in the MIAA meet? or do you think K will lose to Hope in their dual? Or am I interpreting your responses incorrectly?

    • #39808
      maverick1
      Member

      stewie- yes

    • #39809
      SwexasTim
      Member

      So you are saying Zoo will finish second at Leagues and lose to Hope.

    • #39810
      maverick1
      Member

      swexas- i didn’t say ‘yes to all’ πŸ™‚

      maybe hope will go undefeated and then get 3rd at leagues…..who knows, maybe everyone from u of m will transfer to alma and they will win leagues

    • #39811
      W3ndell
      Member

      So it’s settled. Alma is winning leagues. Discussion board closed.

    • #39812
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Upsets are pretty rare in swimming. There won’t be one this year, atleast not in my mind.

    • #39813
      silentp
      Member

      How many guys do each team have that will score in 3 events? 2 events? That’s what wins MIAAs, has in the past, will in the future. Look at that and you’ll get a good idea of who will be in the hunt or winning it all. After that it comes to stepping up, but not before.

    • #39814
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      How many guys do each team have that will score in 3 events? 2 events? That’s what wins MIAAs, has in the past, will in the future. Look at that and you’ll get a good idea of who will be in the hunt or winning it all. After that it comes to stepping up, but not before.

      Very true. If your basis is “if so and so wins the 50, and so and so places top 6 in the 400IM….” then you are probably going to be wrong about what place your team ends up.

    • #39815
      Vic
      Member

      @El Duderino wrote:

      Also, can you please have a Haggis tent set up on deck so your swimmers can recharge after their swims at MIAAs. That wouldn’t just be awesome, it would be legendary.

      Unfortunately, importing Haggis is illegal in the US, so SwexasTim will have to make his own.

    • #39816
      Derek
      Member

      We think there is a large market for it amongst expatriate Scots there.

      Send the Scots home. Lou Dobbs will back me up here.

    • #39817
      iamdonovan
      Member

      You don’t have to import haggis. There are places (albeit few and far between) in the US that sell it. I imagine that it shouldn’t be too hard to find one in Alma, or “Scotland, USA.”

    • #39818
      Vic
      Member

      @iamdonovan wrote:

      You don’t have to import haggis. There are places (albeit few and far between) in the US that sell it. I imagine that it shouldn’t be too hard to find one in Alma, or “Scotland, USA.”

      I stand corrected, but I can’t imagine that it’s as good as the Haggis produced in Scotland. That stuff must be amazing.

    • #39819
      Derek
      Member

      @Vic wrote:

      I stand corrected, but I can’t imagine that it’s as good as the Haggis produced in Scotland. That stuff must be amazing.

      Deport them for not appreciating AMERICAN haggis.

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