Jim Steen’s Legacy

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    • #12864
      Colbybr
      Member

      On the eve of the Kenyon Invite (full disclosure: I’m coaching at the meet and bored in my hotel room) I found this article on Kenyon’s athletic website: http://www.kenyon.edu/x21645.xml

      The article suggests that Steen is a prolific coach that you can compare to, among others, Red Auerbach, John Wooden and Vince Lombardi. It then goes on to say that you really can’t compare him to these coaches because he was won more titles than all of them combined. What do people think? Is Steen the greatest coach in all of sport or is this a bit of hyperbole?

    • #41416
      silentp
      Member

      @Colbybr wrote:

      On the eve of the Kenyon Invite (full disclosure: I’m coaching at the meet and bored in my hotel room) I found this article on Kenyon’s athletic website: http://www.kenyon.edu/x21645.xml

      The article suggests that Steen is a prolific coach that you can compare to, among others, Red Auerbach, John Wooden and Vince Lombardi. It then goes on to say that you really can’t compare him to these coaches because he was won more titles than all of them combined. What do people think? Is Steen the greatest coach in all of sport or is this a bit of hyperbole?

      We’ll never know because he never coached against the great coaches of swimming. There are some amazing coaches in D3, but the coaches in D1 are better, on average, no doubt about it. If he was coaching against Eddie Reese and David Marsh year in and year out, then I’d agree. How many titles have the coaches of Indian River won in a row? What about that NAIA team? Too tough to compare, especially to those.

      My question is this quote from the article, ” an eye for swimmers who are trending up”. Isn’t this D3? Don’t you go after everyone possible? Is he really saying no to swimmers who aren’t trending up? Seems weird to me.

    • #41417

      My only comment, because the article is way too ridiculous and arrogant to comment on, is that it looks like Steens whispy mustache is covering up some sort of cleft lip repair.

      @Colbybr wrote:

      On the eve of the Kenyon Invite (full disclosure: I’m coaching at the meet and bored in my hotel room) I found this article on Kenyon’s athletic website: http://www.kenyon.edu/x21645.xml

      The article suggests that Steen is a prolific coach that you can compare to, among others, Red Auerbach, John Wooden and Vince Lombardi. It then goes on to say that you really can’t compare him to these coaches because he was won more titles than all of them combined. What do people think? Is Steen the greatest coach in all of sport or is this a bit of hyperbole?

    • #41418
      Father
      Member

      your reply is clearly more ridiculous and arrogant than the article.

      funny boy.

    • #41419

      Besides ridiculous, the article is also inaccurate in saying Steen’s “trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined.”

      The combined championships of the guys named: 39
      Wooden – 10
      Stenegel – 7
      Red – 9
      Blake – 8
      Lombardi – 5 (includes Super Bowls and NFL championships before they had a Super Bowl)

      Steen has won what, 28 titles? Yes, that is a lot. But not 39. And outside of this forum and maybe his high school guidance counselor, nobodies heard of him.

      I know being heard of does not constitute being great at what you coach. But unless you are coaching at the top level in your sport, you can’t really be considered the greatest in my mind.

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

    • #41420
      silentp
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Besides ridiculous, the article is also inaccurate in saying Steen’s “trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined.”

      The combined championships of the guys named: 39
      Wooden – 10
      Stenegel – 7
      Red – 9
      Blake – 8
      Lombardi – 5 (includes Super Bowls and NFL championships before they had a Super Bowl)

      Steen has won what, 28 titles? Yes, that is a lot. But not 39. And outside of this forum and maybe his high school guidance counselor, nobodies heard of him.

      I know being heard of does not constitute being great at what you coach. But unless you are coaching at the top level in your sport, you can’t really be considered the greatest in my mind.

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

      28 is just the men’s count…

    • #41421
      babwik
      Member

      Steen has been more dominant at his level than anyone else, but if you want to be in the discussion for greatest coach ever, I think you need to be at the highest level.

      Steen is the king Alpha-Dog at D3 for years, building a great D3 program with D1 resources. His teams are unbelieveable and always impress. He is a d3 legend, but not in the discussion for greatest coach ever.

    • #41422

      @silentp wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Besides ridiculous, the article is also inaccurate in saying Steen’s “trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined.”

      The combined championships of the guys named: 39
      Wooden – 10
      Stenegel – 7
      Red – 9
      Blake – 8
      Lombardi – 5 (includes Super Bowls and NFL championships before they had a Super Bowl)

      Steen has won what, 28 titles? Yes, that is a lot. But not 39. And outside of this forum and maybe his high school guidance counselor, nobodies heard of him.

      I know being heard of does not constitute being great at what you coach. But unless you are coaching at the top level in your sport, you can’t really be considered the greatest in my mind.

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

      28 is just the men’s count…

      Too bad Red didn’t have the chance to coach a WNBA team too.

    • #41423
      Colbybr
      Member

      I can actually report that Jim has shaved the mustache. I saw him today without it. Also, wouldn’t you say that all college coaches are looking for swimmers that are “trending up”? I dont think there are any coaches looking for burn outs.

    • #41424
      The Treat
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Besides ridiculous, the article is also inaccurate in saying Steen’s “trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined.”

      The combined championships of the guys named: 39
      Wooden – 10
      Stenegel – 7
      Red – 9
      Blake – 8
      Lombardi – 5 (includes Super Bowls and NFL championships before they had a Super Bowl)

      Steen has won what, 28 titles? Yes, that is a lot. But not 39. And outside of this forum and maybe his high school guidance counselor, nobodies heard of him.

      I know being heard of does not constitute being great at what you coach. But unless you are coaching at the top level in your sport, you can’t really be considered the greatest in my mind.

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

      28 is just the men’s count…

      Too bad Red didn’t have the chance to coach a WNBA team too.

      if he really wanted to prevent steen from breaking his record, he should have taken up coaching the bruins and patriots as well… what a slacker.

    • #41425

      @Father wrote:

      your reply is clearly more ridiculous and arrogant than the article.

      funny boy.

      Funny boy? Don’t egg me on. I’ve got a whole tinted window van routine I’ve redied for the next hurdy gurdy whispy mustache man who spouts off to Mac of the MIAC.

      But since I did call something ridiculous without evidence, I will back my statement up.

      Swimming should never be compaired to a team sport. Especially a team sport that involves strategy to the level that basketball and football do. Vince Lombardi, or even Vince Vaughn could coach Kenyon to a victory this year at nationals. Mr. Steen would coach the New England Patriots to a 1-15 record if he were lucky.

      Mr. Steen is a d3 coach. If he wants to be considered a top swimming coach, he needs to compete in d1. This is pretty obvious to everyone except Mr. Steen and the dolt who wrote the article (hopefully a journalism student, but most likely, Mr. Steen himself).

      Don’t compare a d3 swimming title to winning the super bowl. It costs 1 million dollars for a 30 socond commercial spot in the super bowl. d3 nationals will never be televised.

      It would take a sample of 1 million people in America before you found 1 who knew who Mr. Steen is. It would take a sample of 2 people to find a person who knows who Vince Lombardi is.

      Had enough? I could go on forever. Should we talk about how much money Mr. Steen probably takes home for being the greatest coach in the world… ever? I bet it’s closer to the poverty rate than it is to a d1 football coach.

    • #41426
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

      Or, it would be like saying that a D3 Title swim is more important than a 20th place finish at the Olympic Trials.

    • #41427
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Mac and Chapel are 100% correct.

    • #41428

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      It would be like the JV coach saying he’s better than the varsity coach because he has a better record.

      Perfectly stated. I will now only refer to Jim Steen as JV Steen.

    • #41429
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Marc Courtney Brooks is the greatest college swimmer of all time, tied with (I think) Nicole Haislet with 20 national titles.

      MAC: please tell me that you are joking and that you don’t really think Steen wrote the article himself.

    • #41430
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I found this article so ridiculous that I left a comment. I encourage others to do so!

    • #41431
      swim5599
      Member

      I don’t think we can say that he is the greatest of all time. I can certainly probably put him in the top 10 swim coaches of all time. I know people are going to say that he never coached at the elite d1 level. Well it is most certainly because he probably never wanted too. I would think that if Jim Steen was coaching at Stanford with the same kind of talent that Eddie has had there the results would have been very similar.

    • #41432
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I don’t think we can say that he is the greatest of all time. I can certainly probably put him in the top 10 swim coaches of all time. I know people are going to say that he never coached at the elite d1 level. Well it is most certainly because he probably never wanted too. I would think that if Jim Steen was coaching at Stanford with the same kind of talent that Eddie has had there the results would have been very similar.

      If it is true that he never wanted to, then there should be no complaint about the fact that he can never and will never be considered God as the article implicates. It was his choice to coach D3. I don’t know how you could justify putting him in the top ten of all time or put him anywhere near Eddie Reese.

    • #41433
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I think we can agree on this…JV Steen is the greatest D3 Coach of All-Time. And Mike Grant, son of Bud Grant, is the greatest minnesota high school football coach of All-Time.

    • #41434
      Father
      Member

      I have to defend the man I know.

      First of all, no one ever said he was the greatest Coach of all time. The article did say that “kenyon is the history of modern day division 3 swimming”, which is true as far as titles is concerned. It never said Kenyon is better than any other d1 program.

      What is making you guys upset is the fact that the article stated “With all due respect to these figures, none come close to Steen”. If you were to stop right there, it would sound bogus, because obviously those coaches are more famous than Steen. However, the article adds “whose trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined”, which again is a true statement if you add up mens and womens titles. As far as trophy is concerned, they do not come close to Steen. The article didn’t say that winning d3 is just as important as winning the Super Bowl, or more important than winning the final 4. Instead, it’s making a marketing statement by simply implying “hey, we all know about those great coaches, but we have Jim Steen and he has done something quite impressive here”.

      Of course no one believes he is the greatest person in the world, but the article makes a point that he is the greatest at his job, which is building a division 3 swimming program.

      A few corrections to Mac’s argument:

      1- Steen would never write such article
      2- I can guarantee Steen makes more money than many d1 bball coaches, and is much far from the poverty rate. Trust me. Those who know him, have been to his house, have hung out with him, have seen the wedding he threw to his daughter, would know exactly the real deal.
      3- No one else could build the Kenyon program like Steen has done, let alone Vince Lombardi. If it were that easy, other schools would have done it by now.

      The jokes about JV Steen or MCB being the greatest swimmer of all-time are a result of jealously. That simple.

      (I mean, if you’re taking the time to go to the Kenyon website and write a comment to the school on how much you don’t like the article, then you clearly have a problem with the school. Or let’s put it this way, you wouldn’t waste your time if any other school had written the article)

    • #41435
      swim5599
      Member

      so your saying that you don’t think Steen is as good of a coach then say Reese, Marsh, Bowman etc? I totally disagree. It is tough to compare based on the difference in talent level. But I am willing to bet that most of the great d1 coaches would throw Jim right in there with them.

    • #41436
      Father
      Member

      listen, i would never win this argument because many of you are somewhat anti-Kenyon.

      I don’t think Steen is as good as those guys, but I also don’t think you can compare them

      He’s the best at d3 swimming and there is no question about that. The article never said he was better than any of those coaches, but it implied that he has more titles and he is pretty damn successful at what he does.

      Again, no one is saying he’s better than a d1 or pro coach.

    • #41437

      ” in 1996 Coach Steen took a one year sabbatical from Kenyon College to consult with many of America’s top coaches prior to the Atlanta Olympic Games.”

      I think that it’s pretty fraudulant to claim to have coached at the 1996 olympics when he clearly was not a part of it. Did he call up the US head coach to wish him luck? Was that the extent of his “consulting”. Jim should be more careful when he embelishes his resume and bio. Lying to your buddies at the bar is one thing. Lying on your resume shows increadibly poor character.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Steen (I’m 100% certain he wrote this himself)

      http://www.tpswimcamp.com/coaches.html

    • #41438
      swim5599
      Member

      and if you read above I made an error. I was thinking stanford and I made a comment about eddie Reese coaching there. Before people jump down my throat I know that Reese is the head coach at Texas and Skip is the head coach at stanford.

    • #41439
      swim5599
      Member

      It does not actually say he coached at the 96 games. Read it again.

    • #41440
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Father you and I read this comment completely different:

      “With all due respect to these figures, none come close to Steen — whose trophy case holds more championship hardware than all of them combined.”

      The intention of that statement is for the reader to believe not only is Steen the greatests of all time, the proof is in the trophy case. That was the writers intention, make a statement and support it with facts.

      Regarding steen making as much as a D1 BBall coach. Please. Is the guy successful, sure. Does he make $250K, maybe, I don’t really know. But whatever it is it is peanuts to D1BBall coaches (PSSST: D1 coaches make more money on basketball camps than Steen does on swim camps).

      Finally, there is no need to defend Steen personally (you wrote “defend the man I know), as it is the article that is ridiculous, certainly not Jim Steen.

    • #41441
      Father
      Member

      Mac,

      Sorry, but you’re stupid.

      Where does it say that he coached the olympics?

      That’s actually a true statement. he took the year off and, among other things, went around the country to share and LEARN from those coaches who were coaching at the olympics.

      It never said he was part of the olympics. You’re ridiculous.

      On a side note, Steen has stories of Coaching Gary Hall for a few days in 96. In one of the sets Gary Hall was doing 20 x 50s for time, on something like 1 minute rest, and Hall held 26s (SCY) and Steen couldn’t believe how slow that was. After the set Hall approached Steen and said:

      “thank you for the workout, that was one of the best sets I’ve ever had”

      Pretty funny.

    • #41442
      Father
      Member

      Ok Don, whatever makes you happy. But please ask Mac to stop being ridiculous.

    • #41443

      Would you like to challenge me to a spelling bee?

      The “consulting” quote on his bio/resume is misleading at the very best. When you write a bio or your resume, you stick to the facts. Putting “1996 olympic games” anywhere on your resume, unless you officially coached at the games, shows poor character. I think that anyone who routinely hires people for any job would agree with me.

      I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today. Calling yourself a legend, or putting legend in a bio about yourself is pretty telling. Dude has an enormous ego coupled with some very serious character issues. I wouldn’t trust him to watch my dog.

      @Father wrote:

      Mac,

      Sorry, but you’re stupid.

      Where does it say that he coached the olympics?

      That’s actually a true statement. he took the year off and, among other things, went around the country to share and LEARN from those coaches who were coaching at the olympics.

      It never said he was part of the olympics. You’re ridiculous.

      On a side note, Steen has stories of Coaching Gary Hall for a few days in 96. In one of the sets Gary Hall was doing 20 x 50s for time, on something like 1 minute rest, and Hall held 26s (SCY) and Steen couldn’t believe how slow that was. After the set Hall approached Steen and said:

      “thank you for the workout, that was one of the best sets I’ve ever had”

      Pretty funny.

    • #41444
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Father actually is Jim Steen. I am 95% certain of this.

    • #41445
      Father
      Member

      Sure, I am Jim Steen.

      Let’s laugh at this too:

      “I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today”

      😆

    • #41446
      Milhouse
      Member

      The article mentions Toe Blake, but not Scotty Bowman. Even the Kenyon PR department knows not to f%@k with Scotty.

    • #41447
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Let’s start a “Jim Steen Facts” website, a la Chuck Norris! I’ll go first.

      Why do Kenyon’s swimmers go so fast? Because Jim Steen uses his powers of telekinesis to pull them through the water.

    • #41448
      The Treat
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today.

      Really? Ever been to the national meet? I know most of your knowledge is based on MIAC swimming, but pretty much everyone who knows D3 swimming knows who Steen is.

    • #41449
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Father wrote:

      Sure, I am Jim Steen.

      I know, I can see the IP address where your posts are coming from (Oh crap, he can, can’t he!).

    • #41450
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today.

      Really? Ever been to the national meet? I know most of your knowledge is based on MIAC swimming, but pretty much everyone who knows D3 swimming knows who Steen is.

      Treat, you have demonstrated that you are a brilliant guy. Obviously MAC is kidding.

    • #41451

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Let’s start a “Jim Steen Facts” website, a la Chuck Norris! I’ll go first.

      Why do Kenyon’s swimmers go so fast? Because Jim Steen uses his powers of telekinesis to pull them through the water.

      I was going to say that too when I first read the entry. I am so mad that you beat me to it.

      How about,

      Jim Steen is so awesome that he did not have to write his own entry on Wikipedia. It wrote itself.

    • #41452
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      @Father wrote:

      Sure, I am Jim Steen.

      I know, I can see the IP address where your posts are coming from (Oh crap, he can, can’t he!).

      Cheadle – you’re probably right – I’m sure Steen has nothing better to do 19 minutes after the start of the first heat of the mile at the Kenyon Invite than post on d3swimming.com. On the other hand, since Father posted on here so many times today I think we can safely say that d3swimming posts for Jim Steen.

    • #41453
      The Treat
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today.

      Really? Ever been to the national meet? I know most of your knowledge is based on MIAC swimming, but pretty much everyone who knows D3 swimming knows who Steen is.

      Treat, you have demonstrated that you are a brilliant guy. Obviously MAC is kidding.

      well i guess i was wrong then. sarcasm on the internet…

    • #41454

      @The Treat wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      I’m a d3 swimming fan, and I only heard about this guy today.

      Really? Ever been to the national meet? I know most of your knowledge is based on MIAC swimming, but pretty much everyone who knows D3 swimming knows who Steen is.

      I was not kidding. I had no idea who Jim Steen was until I read that abnoxious article. I’ve swam at nationals, and I’ve even been beat by a Kenyon swimmer or two. I know they have a great team, but I never really bothered to read about the coach. Now that I know a thing or two about his ego and lack of character, I don’t care to read too much about him going forward.

      I have nothing against Kenyon swimmers. And if a coach who calls himself a living legend and lies about being involved in the olympics is what draws recruits in, all the more power to Jim. I say go for 50 titles in a row! Go go go JV Jim.

    • #41455

      Mac, if you think Steen’s accomplishments are so minuscule in the big picture, what are you doing posting on D3 swimming anyway? Wouldn’t you have bigger fish to fry?

      He is the most prolific coach in NCAA history. Whether that means he would be a great D1 coach or not is unknown. You can never say that for sure. I think he deserves some credit at least for being original. Most coaches would have ascended the coaching ladder to a team that can offer scholarships long ago. It means he is in coaching for the right reasons.

    • #41456
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Father wrote:

      On a side note, Steen has stories of Coaching Gary Hall for a few days in 96. In one of the sets Gary Hall was doing 20 x 50s for time, on something like 1 minute rest, and Hall held 26s (SCY) and Steen couldn’t believe how slow that was. After the set Hall approached Steen and said:

      “thank you for the workout, that was one of the best sets I’ve ever had”

      Pretty funny.

      Wow, I stand corrected. That story proves that the man is a genius. I’m not sure what I admire more, the creativity it took to come up with a set like 20 x 50’s for time (on 1:00 rest) or the sarcasm dripping from the comment Gary Hall made about the set.

    • #41457
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      He is the most prolific coach in NCAA history. Whether that means he would be a great D1 coach or not is unknown. You can never say that for sure. I think he deserves some credit at least for being original. Most coaches would have ascended the coaching ladder to a team that can offer scholarships long ago. It means he is in coaching for the right reasons.

      He deserves credit for staying where his paycheck is coming from? I agree that he has been an extremely successful D3 Coach but I’m not sure that this proves he’s in it for the right reasons. The coaches that ascend to the next level are inherently in it for the wrong reasons?

    • #41458

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      The coaches that ascend to the next level are inherently in it for the wrong reasons?

      No, the contrapositive does not apply to my point. I said that he was in it for the right reasons to highlight his originality, not to imply that other coaches made the wrong decision.

    • #41459
      wonderboy33
      Member

      He’s original because he kept his job?

    • #41460

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      He’s original because he kept his job?

      He is original because he is extremely successful and could easily have graduated to another level of coaching but chose not to for whatever reason. I guess that doesn’t necessarily make him an altruist but I think it shows amount of character.

    • #41461
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I think it shows that he likes his job, nothing more. Neither you nor I know what kind of opportunities he had at the D1 Level. It doesn’t take character to enjoy your job, but it does take effort at times.

    • #41462
      Derek
      Member

      I wouldn’t argue that he is original for keeping his job, but that he is old fashioned. We are now accustomed to people switching jobs and careers much more than they did just 30 years ago.

      It seems that there are a lot of people trying to stoke the fire here, or just a lot of ignorance. Steen has been incredibly successful at the d3 level. We should want to believe that he is the best coach in the entire universe because then it makes it more acceptable that he has won so many times. If he isn’t that phenomenal, then what are the rest of us doing? Why hasn’t another team beat Kenyon (Men) yet? Unless you are going to accuse Steen of acting unethically, it is only logical that either he IS that good or that everybody else is that bad. So which would you prefer?

    • #41463
      Father
      Member

      Don, you can see my IP address?

      AMAZING, Mr. Moderator!!!

      I’m so proud of you!

    • #41464
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Father wrote:

      Don, you can see my IP address?

      AMAZING, Mr. Moderator!!!

      I’m so proud of you!

      Whatever Jim

    • #41465

      I’ve said this before, but I think for a sport like swimming, recruiting is 90% of the coaching.

      Sure a good coach can make solid workouts, and motivate guys to swim their hardest. But when it comes down to it, if the swimmers are fast in high school, they’ll get faster in college just by getting stronger (unless the freshman 15 gets in the way or they fall in with the goth crowd and quit swimming to join theater).

      I can probably Google a solid workout, or buy a book with one. But being able to convince a kid with D1 talent to pay $30K a year to swim on my team is quite a different feat in itself.

      So I will say, Steen must be one of the best recruiters in D3 swimming (probably the best). But as far as being a great all around coach, doesn’t matter in my mind. Mac of the MIAC could coach this years Kenyon team to a title… and maybe even coach the Olympics while he’s at it.

    • #41466

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      I’ve said this before, but I think for a sport like swimming, recruiting is 90% of the coaching.

      Totally agree. And to be fair, Jim Steen is the best D3 swimming coach ever. That point cannot be argued. And since winning at swimming is 90% recruiting, Jim Steen is a great recruiter.

      Convincing a kid who swam a 20.9 in the 50 free to pay 40k a year to go to college, when he could probably go to The Ohio State University on a swimming scholarship for free is a tough sell. It’s a sell that every d3 coach probably tries to make with 3-5 kids a year. But let’s also be realistic. Most kids into swimming are coming from a middle to upper class background. Money is not as big of a factor when choosing a college. And that’s why d3 swimming is pretty exciting. A lot of borderline d1 swimmers choose to swim d3. And very few choose d2.

      What Jim Steen should not do is compare himself to a super bowl winning football coach. Until you can spit off 5 offensive formations that can take advantage of a 6-1 on 3rd and 2, don’t compare yourself to a football coach at any level.

    • #41467
      Mickey Mouse
      Member

      Jim has been much more of a recruiter.

      The support for that can be found in the results. He has consistently gotten vast improvements from his swimmers. Plus, and maybe more telling, is that his teams NEVER miss a taper (I’m talking about the men, don’t know about women). Isn’t that amazing to anybody else?

      If somebody can just Google workouts and have it be good enough, why don’t other coaches see the consistent results he does? To me, that speaks volumes to his coaching ability.

      I’m not drawing comparisons to D1 or what not but only a great coach can get the results he does year in and year out.

    • #41468
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Recruiting is 90% of coaching? No. It’s important but it’s not that high. Recruiting didn’t get Josh Mitchell to go from 21.5 and 46.7 as a sophomore to 20.2 and 44.9 as a junior.

    • #41469

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Recruiting is 90% of coaching? No. It’s important but it’s not that high. Recruiting didn’t get Josh Mitchell to go from 21.5 and 46.7 as a sophomore to 20.2 and 44.9 as a junior.

      Isn’t some of that on Josh Mitchell?

      But let’s get into it. What are the Kenyon training secrets? Do they go year-round? Do they swim harder and longer? Is there a big weight program? What do they do differently? Can someone from Kenyon comment?

    • #41470

      Any “good” coach sees improvement.

      If a swimmer does not get better in college, it is most likely due to the fact that they discovered Busch Light is on sale.

      Taking recruiting out of the equation, what is a better coaching feat:

      Getting a guy who went a 58 100 breast in high school down to a 56 by his senior year?

      or

      Getting a guy who was a 1:05 in high school down to a 59?

      Some may disagree, but I’d go with the 1:05 down to a 59.

      Hard to say, but who knows if Steen could do that at Kenyon because I doubt a 1:05 breast stroker has ever made the team. He takes VERY fast high school swimmers, and gives them a lane to train in to get faster. Yes he motivates them, and gives them workouts, and tells stories about Gary Hall sucking at practice, but when it comes down to it, the swimmer is either good or bad by the time they are an 18-19 year old freshman. And they will get better just by getting stronger and laying off the Busch Light tall-boys.

      I guess I agree that recruiting isn’t 90% of coaching success at the D3 level, it is more like 99%.

    • #41471
      wonderboy33
      Member

      To add to Chapel and Mac’s point, if recruiting is at the very least a big part of coaching, then Steen did his best coaching during the late 70’s and early 80’s. The Kenyon name is what sells the program these days, not Jim Steen.

      To say that his success is about finding kids who are trending upward is ludicrous. What kid isn’t trending upward throughout their high school career? If you aren’t faster during your senior year than you were your freshman year than you most likely are drinking premiums and burning heaters rather than training.

      There are no secrets to the Kenyon training program. They do the same style of training that other D3 schools do. The difference is that they have a much bigger pool of talent training together. It’s much easier to get a 20.9 kid to train and swim faster when he has other kids who are as fast or faster around him. Most likely, that kid is swimming with that kind of talent for the first time ever. Not many high school teams have a more than one 20.9 kid, if any.

    • #41472

      @Derek wrote:

      I wouldn’t argue that he is original for keeping his job, but that he is old fashioned. We are now accustomed to people switching jobs and careers much more than they did just 30 years ago.

      I have a different view of Steen staying at Kenyon for 30 years. In his bio for the TPSC it states, “Never content to repeat past success…” Never content? Isn’t winning the men’s title 28 times the very definition of being content with past successes? If he were truly interested in the challege of moving up to the next level, he would’ve done so by now. We’ve all seen coaches move to the next level and fail, see Nick Saban, Rick Pitino, Pete Carroll, etc. I believe that Steen made a decision to not stick his neck out at the next level, and remain in a position where it would be difficult to fail. I don’t think it’s because he is old fashioned.

    • #41473
      silentp
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      What Jim Steen should not do is compare himself to a super bowl winning football coach. Until you can spit off 5 offensive formations that can take advantage of a 6-1 on 3rd and 2, don’t compare yourself to a football coach at any level.

      D3football.com: The Best Source for Division III Football Information

    • #41474
      Father
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Recruiting is 90% of coaching? No. It’s important but it’s not that high. Recruiting didn’t get Josh Mitchell to go from 21.5 and 46.7 as a sophomore to 20.2 and 44.9 as a junior.

      Isn’t some of that on Josh Mitchell?

      But let’s get into it. What are the Kenyon training secrets? Do they go year-round? Do they swim harder and longer? Is there a big weight program? What do they do differently? Can someone from Kenyon comment?

      You’re just gonna have to wonder. No one will ever know the secrets…

      Maybe he is just really good at finding workouts on google….

      what a joke!

    • #41475
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Father wrote:

      The jokes about JV Steen or MCB being the greatest swimmer of all-time are a result of jealously. That simple.

      I think the reason some people don’t like Kenyon is because of the attitude with which they conduct themselves. After each National Title, they all gather in the pool and yell out the number of National Titles they’ve won, and then count the next year as well. That would be like the Patriots declaring that they will win the next Super Bowl in front of the opponent that they’ve just soundly beaten for the current title. Well, maybe it’s more like a high school nine-man football team declaring the next title when there are 4 higher levels of competition above them. It’s classless. The fact that it happens is only proof that it is condoned by the coaching staff.

    • #41476
      griz
      Member

      I’m sure recruiting is pretty easy when your pool has this description…

      “The new home for Kenyon College’s national championship swim teams, the KAC Natatorium opened in 2006. The facility features a pool that holds 985,000 gallons of water, accommodates 20 lanes (25 yards), or nine long-course lanes, ample deck space, plus one- and three-meter diving boards. The size of the pool not only makes for more comfortable competition, but allows the swim teams efficient practice options, while creating more time for recreational swimming.

      The pool area also includes a wet classroom, a meet manager’s office, a whirlpool, on-deck access to locker rooms, a digital scoreboard, and second-tier stands that seat approximately 350 fans.”

    • #41477
      Father
      Member

      wonderboy:

      That’s an interesting point.

      What else do they do that’s so bad? Is it all about counting the extra number? Is it really that rude? Maybe it is. I’m just wondering.

      How about when everyone in the stands decides to cheer/celebrate when a Kenyon relay gets dq’ed? How do you think that’s viewed by the Kenyon folks? You think that’s classy? Again, I’m just wondering. I hope there’s no double standard.

    • #41478
      The Treat
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      I think the reason some people don’t like Kenyon is because of the attitude with which they conduct themselves. After each National Title, they all gather in the pool and yell out the number of National Titles they’ve won, and then count the next year as well. That would be like the Patriots declaring that they will win the next Super Bowl in front of the opponent that they’ve just soundly beaten for the current title. Well, maybe it’s more like a high school nine-man football team declaring the next title when there are 4 higher levels of competition above them. It’s classless. The fact that it happens is only proof that it is condoned by the coaching staff.

      at first i didnt like how they did this, but think of it this way. for many of those kids, they’re either a freshman or a sophomore (who may not have made the national team last year) so to them, this is the first time they’ve ever won a national championship.

      you think the seniors are going to say, “you know what guys? we’re not going to do that this year. it offends everyone else. i know you’ve put in countless hours this year and sacrificed spending time w/ your non-swimmer friends and given up your winter AND spring break, but everyone else thinks this is just us showing off.”? hell no. that’d be poor leadership on their part. you have to give those kids a once in a lifetime experience. that way, when recruits come to visit in the upcoming months, they can hear it in the way the freshman talk about how their first national experience was.

      some people also don’t like the way they raise their trophies and smile smugly at the crowd after winning an event. know why? kenyon has one of the biggest alumni presences in d3 swimming. when you’ve got that many people coming to cheer and are part of a program with that much tradition, it’s hard not to smile after winning a race.

      i have no problem w/ them doing that. i sat there after each year of nationals and used that as motivation for next year. of course i knew my team wouldnt come close to challenging for a team championship, but that doesnt mean you cant beat them in a relay or an individual event.

      on top of all this, talk to some of the kenyon kids. they’re normal, nice kids, just like any of us… except if you’re from denison, then they’re the spawn of satan 🙂

    • #41479
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Well, I believe humility is important. I think you have to conduct yourself the same in victory and defeat. When people cheer for a Kenyon DQ, that’s not right either. However, I’m not sure that it’s a specific school that cheers for a Kenyon DQ or if there is a specific cheer that is always made by one school when this happens. My assumption is that there are a number of people from different schools that join in with the cheering.

      When Kenyon disrespects their competition after each title, they open themselves up to the ire of the rest of the division, and rightfully so. The coaching staff is responsible for setting the tone of the athletes on the team. If the coaching staff allows this kind of poor sportsmanship, then the athletes will conduct themselves accordingly.

    • #41480

      @Father wrote:

      What else do they do that’s so bad? Is it all about counting the extra number? Is it really that rude? Maybe it is. I’m just wondering.

      Are you serious? I never noticed them do this, and I think it’s about as offensive as you get. What a bunch of jerks, coaches and swimmers included. Father, how would you like it if I counted off each point I beat you in the ACT by? Would that make you feel good about yourself?

      If I were a swimmer on the Kenyon team, there is no way I would participate in this, and there is no way I’d be friends with anyone else who did. It’s called leadership and character, something that the head coach clearly lacks.

    • #41481
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      at first i didnt like how they did this, but think of it this way. for many of those kids, they’re either a freshman or a sophomore (who may not have made the national team last year) so to them, this is the first time they’ve ever won a national championship.

      you think the seniors are going to say, “you know what guys? we’re not going to do that this year. it offends everyone else. i know you’ve put in countless hours this year and sacrificed spending time w/ your non-swimmer friends and given up your winter AND spring break, but everyone else thinks this is just us showing off.”? hell no. that’d be poor leadership on their part. you have to give those kids a once in a lifetime experience. that way, when recruits come to visit in the upcoming months, they can hear it in the way the freshman talk about how their first national experience was.

      Leadership is not about doing what’s been done before because you don’t want to deprive a freshman of a certain experience. Leadership sometimes involves change, and that change can be a change for the better. Would displaying better sportsmanship have ruined the experience for the freshman? No. In fact, it would be sending a message that you have to conduct yourself on a higher plane. That’s more important than any of the titles. Again, if the coaching staff doesn’t care, the kids won’t care.

    • #41482
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Father wrote:

      You’re just gonna have to wonder. No one will ever know the secrets…

      Maybe he is just really good at finding workouts on google….

      what a joke!

      There are no training secrets and it is a myth that Kenyon swimmers improve more than other programs. Work hard, work smart, lift weights and you will dro time. Were you an age group all-star whose best times are behind you? Well then you might not improve.

      Every team has examples of huge drops, and every team has examples of flops.

      Interesting to note the progression of this thread: A ridiculous article was chastised. Father took it personally and started defending Steen the man. Steen backers flew to the rescue of Steen even though the attack was on the article not the man. Now we are arguing about the program. How did that happen?

      Just so my stance can be clear: I have no opinion on Steen other than he runs an awesome program but this article was stupid.

    • #41483
      maverick1
      Member

      wonderboy-are you against fun or having some pride? it’s not like the kenyon team locks all of the doors and forces everyone to watch them celebrate.

      I personally watched when i attended ncaa’s and thought it was cool to at least witness the cheering. One thing i thought was funny was that at the rec plex (st. louis area) kenyon sat right next to the ready room and when the swimmers would be walking out for their events, nobody would cheer from the kenyon bench. For some of the relays, when i was the only guy from kzoo not swimming, i sure as heck humiliated myself screaming at my teammates when they walked out (while my coach stood next to me silently)…..but them not cheering is their choice, it doesn’t make them bad teammates or make steen a bad coach, it’s just their way of doing things.

    • #41484
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Maverick, is it at all possible to show pride without disrespecting your competition? I don’t think displaying a little class in victory is ruining the fun for the athletes, is it?

    • #41485
      Father
      Member

      Mac,

      I would laugh at you just like I’m laughing right now.

      Treat,

      I can’t believe you actually complained about them raising their trophies and smiling.

      I am not going to comment on this issue right anymore. Again, I would never win this argument because of so many anti-Kenyon people here. Also, the people who have posted here clearly don’t know anything about those coaches, swimmers, and that program. Most of you just think you know everything, but you have no idea.

      I suggest you all try to beat those guys next time.

      I’m done posting on this. Amen!

    • #41486
      Colbybr
      Member

      Definitely did not want to this to get into a bashing of Steen the man. Steen is a great coach, and as the argument bears out, it is very hard to quantify how great a coach is. A coach myself, I think that in any program media probably give coaches a little too much credit. We don’t swim any races, or feel too much (physical) pain during them. And institutions can have a lot of influence over the success of a program. There are definitely some schools in division 3 that place an institutional priority on having a good swim team through admissions, and I think this varies a good deal from school to school.

      But I digress. I feel pretty embarrassed to have started this thread that ended up with Coach Steen being belittled. The article has poor wording, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t write it.

    • #41487
      maverick1
      Member

      then again wonderboy, is their cheering ruining the fun for the other athletes?

    • #41488
      The Treat
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Well, I believe humility is important. I think you have to conduct yourself the same in victory and defeat. When people cheer for a Kenyon DQ, that’s not right either. However, I’m not sure that it’s a specific school that cheers for a Kenyon DQ or if there is a specific cheer that is always made by one school when this happens. My assumption is that there are a number of people from different schools that join in with the cheering.

      When Kenyon disrespects their competition after each title, they open themselves up to the ire of the rest of the division, and rightfully so. The coaching staff is responsible for setting the tone of the athletes on the team. If the coaching staff allows this kind of poor sportsmanship, then the athletes will conduct themselves accordingly.

      so when the bulls made shirts, hats, buttons, etc… that said, 3-peat and repeat the 3-peat back in the 90’s, that was disrespectful?

      would you be mad if after kenyon won it’s second title they held up two fingers, which stood for two in a row? what about after three? any more fingers and it starts to get ridiculous so maybe they decided to count. at what point does it start to become disrespectful? as a swimmer on kenyon, at what point are you going to stop it?

      i think people look too much into being disrespectful when it comes to celebrating. in my opinion, as long as it’s not blatantly shoving it in the face of one team or one swimmer, they’ve earned the right to do whatever they want when they celebrate. would it make any difference to you if they did it back at their pool? if so, then just go into the locker room and leave. for all you know, they didn’t do it. i guarantee it does make a difference for them if they did it right there at nationals or if they did it back at home. back at home, a lot of the emotional high has worn off. it’s just them celebrating as a team, that’s all. don’t make it bigger than it is.

    • #41489
      maverick1
      Member

      @Colbybr wrote:

      I feel pretty embarrassed to have started this thread that ended up with Coach Steen being belittled. The article has poor wording, but I’m pretty sure he didn’t write it.

      along these lines……if things do get worse, or if mac of the miac gets nasty, i might have to edit some of his posts 🙂

    • #41490

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Maverick, is it at all possible to show pride without disrespecting your competition? I don’t think displaying a little class in victory is ruining the fun for the athletes, is it?

      I completely agree with wonderboy. I had 10-12 MIAC swimmers behind my lane at nationals when I limped to a console place finish in the 200 fly. Wonderboy had the same amount of people, myself included, cheering him on in the 100 free. We weren’t even on the same team. This is what d3 swimming should be about. And I wouldn’t trade this memory for Robin Blume-Kohout’s winning time that year.

    • #41491
      maverick1
      Member

      mac of the miac, did you also cheer on wonderboy at miac’s?

      if not, then why weren’t you upholding your’s and wonderboy’s “spirit of d3swimming”

    • #41492
      The Treat
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      I completely agree with wonderboy. I had 10-12 MIAC swimmers behind my lane at nationals when I limped to a 14th place finish in the 200 fly. Wonderboy had the same amount of people, myself included, cheering him on in the 100 free. We weren’t even on the same team. This is what d3 swimming should be about. And I wouldn’t trade this memory for Pedro Montiero’s winning time that year.

      sure, and that’s perfect for you. given kenyon’s results throughout history, what team from their conference is going to cheer for them? no one. absolutely no one. they have only each other to depend on for motivation. what fun is it to cheer for the perennial winner, unless you’re the perennial winner (or a fan of the perennial winner)?

    • #41493
      wonderboy33
      Member

      The answer is yes. I remember swimming the finals of the 100 fly my freshman year and having the entire MIAC contingent behind my lane cheering me on. I also remember the finals of the 400 free relay my sophomore year, when either the Gusties or the Ole’s swam in the consols (same lane as we were in for champ finals) and the 4 of them stood behind us cheering us on. That’s sportsmanship and that’s what I remember more than anything else.

    • #41494

      @maverick wrote:

      mac of the miac, did you also cheer on wonderboy at miac’s?

      if not, then why weren’t you upholding your’s and wonderboy’s “spirit of d3swimming”

      Probably not. Especially because I was busy losing to him in the same heat. But I remember getting wasted with him, and all of the other SJU swimmers at the hotel after the meet. How many of Kenyon’s competitors want to party with them after the meet? Few, if any, I imagine.

    • #41495
      The Treat
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      @maverick wrote:

      mac of the miac, did you also cheer on wonderboy at miac’s?

      if not, then why weren’t you upholding your’s and wonderboy’s “spirit of d3swimming”

      Probably not. Especially because I was busy losing to him in the same heat. But I remember getting wasted with him, and all of the other SJU swimmers at the hotel after the meet. How many of Kenyon’s competitors want to party with them after the meet? Few, if any, I imagine.

      so you showed class to your teammates, but not to your coach or school’s rules by drinking afterwards in the hotel? now that’s classy.

    • #41496
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      sure, and that’s perfect for you. given kenyon’s results throughout history, what team from their conference is going to cheer for them? no one. absolutely no one. they have only each other to depend on for motivation. what fun is it to cheer for the perennial winner, unless you’re the perennial winner (or a fan of the perennial winner)?

      I would cheer for a team that treated the rest of us with respect. Championship level team or not. KENYON has put itself in the position of having to only rely on each other. KENYON disrespected it’s competition. KENYON has only itself to blame. Does Auburn do anything similar to this? I’m not sure but I’m guessing no. I’m sure I’ll be corrected if I’m wrong.

    • #41497
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      so when the bulls made shirts, hats, buttons, etc… that said, 3-peat and repeat the 3-peat back in the 90’s, that was disrespectful?

      would you be mad if after kenyon won it’s second title they held up two fingers, which stood for two in a row? what about after three? any more fingers and it starts to get ridiculous so maybe they decided to count. at what point does it start to become disrespectful? as a swimmer on kenyon, at what point are you going to stop it?

      i think people look too much into being disrespectful when it comes to celebrating. in my opinion, as long as it’s not blatantly shoving it in the face of one team or one swimmer, they’ve earned the right to do whatever they want when they celebrate. would it make any difference to you if they did it back at their pool? if so, then just go into the locker room and leave. for all you know, they didn’t do it. i guarantee it does make a difference for them if they did it right there at nationals or if they did it back at home. back at home, a lot of the emotional high has worn off. it’s just them celebrating as a team, that’s all. don’t make it bigger than it is.

      Treat, it becomes disrespectful when you are celebrating NEXT YEAR’S victory when you just won THIS YEAR. So, yes, the Bulls were being disrespectful. Phil Jackson hasn’t necessarily shown himself to be the model of humility. I agree that Kenyon has earned the right to celebrate winning a title. Just not the next year’s title. Was it classy when Randy Moss chose to “moon” the packers and their fans when the Vikings beat the Packers on monday night football years ago or was it disrespectful? The NFL thought it was disrespectful as he was fined. Now, Kenyon hasn’t been that blatant but they have shown disrespect.

    • #41498
      maverick1
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Does Auburn do anything similar to this? I’m not sure but I’m guessing no

      does AUBURN celebrate after it wins nationals? i’m going to go ahead and say yes.

      wonderboy, it sounds to me like you think that KENYON expected you to be happy for them when THEY won. I think you’re giving yourself too much credit then, because i don’t think they were trying to impress you and maybe you just took it too personally that they enjoyed their win.

    • #41499

      @The Treat wrote:

      so you showed class to your teammates, but not to your coach or school’s rules by drinking afterwards in the hotel? now that’s classy.

      What kind of school did you go to? Did they not allow you to dance either? Was your coach like the preacher in Footloose? Mine wasn’t.

      For the record, I, like most kids in college, drank, smoked, partied, and went home with my hot girlfriend after most meets. I’d be full of regrets if I conducted myself in any other way.

    • #41500
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Does Auburn do anything similar to this? I’m not sure but I’m guessing no

      does AUBURN celebrate after it wins nationals? i’m going to go ahead and say yes.

      wonderboy, it sounds to me like you think that KENYON expected you to be happy for them when THEY won. I think you’re giving yourself too much credit then, because i don’t think they were trying to impress you and maybe you just took it too personally that they enjoyed their win.

      Maverick, again, you’re missing the point. It’s not about me and it’s not about restricting anyone from celebration. I’m sure Auburn celebrates with the best of them. They don’t, however, disrespect the competition in the process. There’s a right way to celebrate and counting the next year’s title as your own is the wrong way. As an aside, I hope you aren’t going to start editing posts. I don’t think this discussion has spiraled into name-calling or anything to be considered out of line.

    • #41501
      Wally
      Member

      You know, I would take this all down before the kenyon team starts reading it – and some of them feel compelled to defend their coach and team. There is nothing positive about this whole thread… no good can come from this.

    • #41502
      wonderboy33
      Member

      From an MIAC perspective, the Gusties and the Oles were clearly the strongest and most successful teams of the conference. Did I hate them because they were winners? No. Did I want to beat them? Absolutely. Having said that, when we got to Nationals, I cheered for them and they cheered for me. They never disrespected us and we treated them in kind. If this is not the case for Kenyon, then we have to look at why this is the case. Is it because all of D3 hates winners? I doubt it. It may have something to do with the way in which they have won.

    • #41503

      @Wally wrote:

      You know, I would take this all down before the kenyon team starts reading it – and some of them feel compelled to defend their coach and team. There is nothing positive about this whole thread… no good can come from this.

      Why? Not a single Kenyon swimmer has been disrespected. I think this thread should stay up as long as Kenyon has an article on their website claiming that their coach, Jim Steen, is the greatest coach in the world… ever. And has another article falsly claiming that their coach worked at the 1996 olympics.

      If you make bold and false claims like these, you are opening yourself, your team, and your college up for critisism. Be a humble winner, and you’ll find yourself with a group of friends, not enemies.

      Colleges hate negative press. Putting false claims on your resume will get your 30 year career shoved out the door faster than you can say “I’m a better coach than Vince Lombardi”. Just ask George O’Leary how that worked out for him at Notre Dame.

    • #41504
      maverick1
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Be a humble winner, and you’ll find yourself with a group of friends, not enemies.

      you consider kenyon swimmers from the 90’s (it think i remember saying you didn’t care that montiero set a record when you were at ncaa’s) your enemy? wow…..

    • #41505
      NCACDork
      Member

      Interesting thread. I feel I have a good perspective on the subject… perhaps I can relate to MAC since I grew up in MN and I am familiar with the culture of cheering for other swimmers… I think part of the reason is that the vast majority of people in the MIAC grew up swimming USS together in MN, and there don’t tend to be that many out of state people.

      For those who do come in, their friends on the team have friends on other teams, introductions are made, etc.

      I would have to say people are much more spread out coming into a school like Kenyon, Denison, Emory or Hopkins. I actually have friends on all 4 of those teams, and I do (did) cheer for them, but that doesn’t mean I am going to go stand behind their lane.

      For Kenyon kids I they usually can’t stand behind some other team’s lane because chances are there is a Kenyon person swimming if it’s a night heat of ANY given event. PLUS most people probably swim a lot of events and need to focus on their races, which is different than going for one or two races.

      I am familiar with the conduct at nationals and would not say anything is ridiculous. I have watched the counting and next years is usually more of a “Twenljasfl;j;jfad cough cough.” Kind of stupid, actually…

      And yes it is hard, on an individual level, not to smile when there are tons of parents and alumni cheering for you and you just won an event at nationals. Remember most of these kids have nothing to do with the past xx years, save the Kenyon name.

      This thread reminds me of the one about the youtube relay posting from a few years ago… I think it was Paul Gyorfi. Good stuff.

    • #41506
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Be a humble winner, and you’ll find yourself with a group of friends, not enemies.

      you consider kenyon swimmers from the 90’s (it think i remember saying you didn’t care that montiero set a record when you were at ncaa’s) your enemy? wow…..

      I don’t think Mac ever said that he considers Kenyon swimmers enemies. The fact that Kenyon has enemies is partially due to the fact that they have disrespected their competitors in their celebrations. Why don’t they count their titles and stop at the one they just won?

    • #41507
      Milhouse
      Member

      I found it interesting, after 7+ pages of commentary in this thread, that the article in question wasn’t even linked from Kenyon’s athletic department website. It was linked from a page called “Meet Kenyon staff” in the college’s main website, indicating that it was written by someone who doesn’t know anything about swimming (as is too often the case with articles about swimming). If you want to pick on coach Steen, read this article and start over.

    • #41508
      The Treat
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      so you showed class to your teammates, but not to your coach or school’s rules by drinking afterwards in the hotel? now that’s classy.

      What kind of school did you go to? Did they not allow you to dance either? Was your coach like the preacher in Footloose? Mine wasn’t.

      For the record, I, like most kids in college, drank, smoked, partied, and went home with my hot girlfriend after most meets. I’d be full of regrets if I conducted myself in any other way.

      no, but while on a trip that the school is paying for, we chose not to do that. what if you got caught while on the trip? what if someone got seriously sick from drinking while on the trip? there are so many things that can go wrong when you party on a trip. if something were to happen, your school will almost certainly kick you off and possibly ban the team from swimming for the year or more. if you want to party, just wait until you get home. if you can’t wait until then, you’ve got a problem. oh, and i’m glad you’re girlfriend was hot. really, that’s awesome.

      wonderboy, i can understand being mad about counting next year as well, but that means you’re probably looking way too into this. that means you know exactly how many titles they have and you’re just waiting for them to say that next one. i never knew how many titles they had. i knew it was in the 20’s, but after that, who cares? you’ve got other things to worry about.

    • #41509
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Just want to reitterate that my view point was on the ridiculousness of the article. Also I think wonderboy and MAC are now being equally ridiculous, though the article was meant for public distribution while this forum is meant for losers like myself!

    • #41510
      99 Red
      Member

      In college, I swam in meets going against Kenyon 20 times (duel, conference relay, conference, last chance, nationals). In that time, I only recall seeing one instance of a Kenyon swimmer being a jerk. On an individual basis, I don’t think there are any Kenyon alums from back in the day that I wouldn’t enjoy having a beer with. If any college swimmer gets an invitation to the “shock your mom” party that they throw every year… it is epic, you should go.

      I don’t begrudge them the counting that they do, I guarantee that if another team won nationals they would pile into the pool and do some kind of cheer. Just walking up and taking a first place award might be fine on an individual level, but when you win as a team, you need to celebrate as a team.

      Jim Steen is a good coach, and the Kenyon swimming program is a great program. Not only do they get more top swimmers, they keep them. Retention plays a big role at many DIII programs, and I believe that it is a category that Kenyon also does better than most, which is all the more exceptional when you consider that Kenyon is the school with the most realistic chance of leaving you behind because the team is to big. The fact that the swim team has a culture that breeds success is a testament to both the coach and the individuals that have passed through the program.

      Also, I want to note that when Kenyon doesn’t have a person in a heat, they will often cheer for a lone wolf from the NCAC. Julian Lazarus comes to mind, I know both Denison and Kenyon had very warm feelings towards him, and I believe he felt comfortable hanging out with both groups. I think I remember them doing this in the afternoon mile heats also (maybe for the guy from Merchant Marine?)

      Kenyon was and is my college rival, and I hate them more than my Columbus cousins hate Michigan and more than my Ann Arbor cousins hate Ohio State. I still think that just about everyone on the Kenyon team is a good person, and I have no complaints about how they have conducted themselves through this streak. Jim Steen is a great coach, and to go this long without a down period relative to the rest of the division is a professional triumph that I imagine would impress any other great coach you would care to mention.

    • #41511

      Great post, 99 Red. Glad to have a competitor contribute with a constructive post.

      @99 Red wrote:

      In college, I swam in meets going against Kenyon 20 times (duel, conference relay, conference, last chance, nationals). In that time, I only recall seeing one instance of a Kenyon swimmer being a jerk. On an individual basis, I don’t think there are any Kenyon alums from back in the day that I wouldn’t enjoy having a beer with. If any college swimmer gets an invitation to the “shock your mom” party that they throw every year… it is epic, you should go.

      I don’t begrudge them the counting that they do, I guarantee that if another team won nationals they would pile into the pool and do some kind of cheer. Just walking up and taking a first place award might be fine on an individual level, but when you win as a team, you need to celebrate as a team.

      Jim Steen is a good coach, and the Kenyon swimming program is a great program. Not only do they get more top swimmers, they keep them. Retention plays a big role at many DIII programs, and I believe that it is a category that Kenyon also does better than most, which is all the more exceptional when you consider that Kenyon is the school with the most realistic chance of leaving you behind because the team is to big. The fact that the swim team has a culture that breeds success is a testament to both the coach and the individuals that have passed through the program.

      Also, I want to note that when Kenyon doesn’t have a person in a heat, they will often cheer for a lone wolf from the NCAC. Julian Lazarus comes to mind, I know both Denison and Kenyon had very warm feelings towards him, and I believe he felt comfortable hanging out with both groups. I think I remember them doing this in the afternoon mile heats also (maybe for the guy from Merchant Marine?)

      Kenyon was and is my college rival, and I hate them more than my Columbus cousins hate Michigan and more than my Ann Arbor cousins hate Ohio State. I still think that just about everyone on the Kenyon team is a good person, and I have no complaints about how they have conducted themselves through this streak. Jim Steen is a great coach, and to go this long without a down period relative to the rest of the division is a professional triumph that I imagine would impress any other great coach you would care to mention.

    • #41512
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @99 Red wrote:

      I don’t begrudge them the counting that they do, I guarantee that if another team won nationals they would pile into the pool and do some kind of cheer. Just walking up and taking a first place award might be fine on an individual level, but when you win as a team, you need to celebrate as a team.

      Certainly other teams have won Nationals, at every level, be it D3,D2 or D1. Every team has celebrated their victory I suspect. That’s not in question, and every team has a right to celebrate. Has there ever been a team that has been so bold and cocky to count their next title as their own when celebrating? I’m not asking for occasional accounts of poor sportsmanship. I’m asking for a team that does it every single time they are a winning position, which for Kenyon, is nearly every year. Now I’m told it’s ridiculous to point this out. With regards to the original post, it seems to fit right in line.

      Also, I look to everyone else to point out how many titles Kenyon has won. The only reason that I knew how many titles they had when I was swimming was because I believe they announced the number on the loudspeaker at the conclusion. That and my coach pointed the fact that they count the next one as well. If they now mumble the next title (that wasn’t the case when I was swimming), then that’s a change, but it makes no difference. I remember people booing them when they counted this extra title so I’m not alone in thinking this is unacceptable.

    • #41513
      The Treat
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      @99 Red wrote:

      I don’t begrudge them the counting that they do, I guarantee that if another team won nationals they would pile into the pool and do some kind of cheer. Just walking up and taking a first place award might be fine on an individual level, but when you win as a team, you need to celebrate as a team.

      Certainly other teams have won Nationals, at every level, be it D3,D2 or D1. Every team has celebrated their victory I suspect. That’s not in question, and every team has a right to celebrate. Has there ever been a team that has been so bold and cocky to count their next title as their own when celebrating? I’m not asking for occasional accounts of poor sportsmanship. I’m asking for a team that does it every single time they are a winning position, which for Kenyon, is nearly every year. Now I’m told it’s ridiculous to point this out. With regards to the original post, it seems to fit right in line.

      Also, I look to everyone else to point out how many titles Kenyon has won. The only reason that I knew how many titles they had when I was swimming was because I believe they announced the number on the loudspeaker at the conclusion. That and my coach pointed the fact that they count the next one as well. If they now mumble the next title (that wasn’t the case when I was swimming), then that’s a change, but it makes no difference. I remember people booing them when they counted this extra title so I’m not alone in thinking this is unacceptable.

      agree to disagree. i think we’ve exhausted this topic. i can’t come up w/ another team that celebrates in a similar way b/c ive never been to d1 or d2 nats, but i do know that you’ll find even cockier people in d1 than you will in d3 (from what i hear from many people i know who swam d1), so i wouldn’t be surprised.

    • #41514

      I agree, I think we have beaten the “Kenyon celebrates too much” theme to death; but getting back to the original topic of the post (which has been a great source of debate, thanks Colbybr, I love a heated debate).

      Is Jim Steen the greatest coach in the history of athletics? No, he isn’t. And the comparison is ridiculous. To compare him to some of the greats, who challenged themselves at the highest levels of competition is absurd. If he had risen from the ranks of the lowliest swimming program, or even a moderately successful program, and gone on to coach Olympic gold medalists, yes. But what he has done is produce the greatest program that wouldn’t be able to compete with most of the top tier programs in the country, let alone the world.

      I wish he had left his comfortable position at Kenyon, and gone to a D1 school that was struggling, and turned them into a powerhouse. If he had gone to a school like Ohio State, and made them a contender for national championships, I’d be willing to call him the greatest swimming coach of all time. But what he has done is put himself in a situation where he can’t be criticized, and rode that out for the remainder of his career.

      By the way, this is the worst quote from the article, “With all due respect to these figures, none come close to Steen.” The author is referring to, John Wooden, Red Auerbach, Casey Stengel, Toe Blake, and Vince Lombardi. Hyperbole, thy name is random Kenyon author (most likely Steen himself).

    • #41515
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      agree to disagree. i think we’ve exhausted this topic. i can’t come up w/ another team that celebrates in a similar way b/c ive never been to d1 or d2 nats, but i do know that you’ll find even cockier people in d1 than you will in d3 (from what i hear from many people i know who swam d1), so i wouldn’t be surprised.

      I accept your concession. It’s been a pleasure debating this issue with you and the others. I look forward to more engaging discussion in the future. Lastly, your location indicates that you are at DUDNER-MIFFLIN. Please make the change to DUNDER-MIFFLIN. Dude.

    • #41516
      The Treat
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      agree to disagree. i think we’ve exhausted this topic. i can’t come up w/ another team that celebrates in a similar way b/c ive never been to d1 or d2 nats, but i do know that you’ll find even cockier people in d1 than you will in d3 (from what i hear from many people i know who swam d1), so i wouldn’t be surprised.

      I accept your concession. It’s been a pleasure debating this issue with you and the others. I look forward to more engaging discussion in the future. Lastly, your location indicates that you are at DUDNER-MIFFLIN. Please make the change to DUNDER-MIFFLIN. Dude.

      ahhh crap.

    • #41517
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I thought you’d like that one.

    • #41518
      Derek
      Member

      My single observation of this thread is that respect goes both ways.

      Wonderboy and Mac, how much respect are you affording Kenyon? At what point is it disrespectful of you to assume so much of them? What is their perspective and what is your perspective? It is clear to me that Kenyon is very happy with their success. At what point are you being disrespectful by demanding that they not celebrate? So what if they say the number of next year’s title – that is the nature of competition.

      I also thought that 99 red’s post was very insightful. As one of the few teams that has been able to challenge Kenyon, Denison is in a great position to reflect on what Kenyon celebration means.

      Oh, and one other thing about this entire debate – these are your opinions, which I know is self-evident on a forum, but I want to be clear that while you believe it to be disrespectful to count the number of championships won +1, there are plenty of people who don’t consider that to be disrespectful and believe that it is an acceptable way to push forward to the next year. Opinions matter, but it is important to frame our debates in the language of opinions and not of fact. The prime example of where the line has been crossed in this thread is claiming what Steen thinks of himself and what articles he has or has not written. Unless you actually DO know this, it is your opinion and should be written that way.

    • #41519

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      …and went home with my hot girlfriend after most meets. I’d be full of regrets if I conducted myself in any other way.

      Was she as hot as that sickly looking person in the background of you avatar?

      Also, for once, I completely agree with Derek.

    • #41520
      fr0gman
      Member

      Mac and Wonderboy

      I’m no Kenyon lover, and I, like many DIII fans look forward to the day that somebody takes them down. However, until that happens, they can celebrate, cheer and do whatever because they’ve earned it. They don’t mock anybody, they don’t belittle anybody, the celebrate their victory. You can hate it, but they’re not disrespecting you, it’s not aimed at you, they likely don’t know who you are.

      Obviously tradition and history are very important to them. I would assume that most of the team members had a lot of options when they were choosing a college, but they chose to attend the school with the longest, best winning streak of any collegiate sport. By choosing your respective schools, obviously that’s not important to you. It doesn’t have to be, but that doesn’t invalidate the right of others to care about that. Welcome to the real world. Not everybody cares about you.

    • #41521
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Frogman, thanks for the reality check, I really needed that. In fact, I think you can look at my posts and see that I actually think (or care) whether or not Kenyon will change for anybody. Frog, you said it yourself, they deserve to celebrate what they earned. That doesn’t include titles that they HAVEN’T WON YET. Thanks for jumping in late and making my point for me.

    • #41522
      maverick1
      Member

      if i could, i would change wonderboy’s signature to I LIKE TO USE CAPS WAAAAAAAY TOO MUCH AND STILL CAN’T READ!

      too bad i’m just a lowly moderator.

    • #41523
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      Wonderboy and Mac, how much respect are you affording Kenyon? At what point is it disrespectful of you to assume so much of them? What is their perspective and what is your perspective? It is clear to me that Kenyon is very happy with their success. At what point are you being disrespectful by demanding that they not celebrate? So what if they say the number of next year’s title – that is the nature of competition.

      Derek, point out where I say they shouldn’t celebrate. I have consistently defended their right to celebrate. I have consistently said that Jim Steen is the best coach in D3 History and that Kenyon is the best program in D3. All I’m saying is, from the perspective of a fellow coach, I don’t believe it’s appropriate to claim a title that isn’t yours yet. I think it’s disrespectful to the competition, and I’ve spoken with a number of coaches who feel the same way. It’s an opinion, and you can say what you want about it. Either get the point and move on, or consistently misrepresent the argument. I’m done with it.

    • #41524
      wonderboy33
      Member

      If I were Maverick, I would change the content of the posts that I didn’t like. I would also learn how to use caps. Don’t know how to read? Creative.

    • #41525
      Balki
      Member

      What kind of school did you go to? Did they not allow you to dance either? Was your coach like the preacher in Footloose? Mine wasn’t.

      For the record, I, like most kids in college, drank, smoked, partied, and went home with my hot girlfriend after most meets. I’d be full of regrets if I conducted myself in any other way.

      a sad, sad post……

    • #41526

      @Balki wrote:

      What kind of school did you go to? Did they not allow you to dance either? Was your coach like the preacher in Footloose? Mine wasn’t.

      For the record, I, like most kids in college, drank, smoked, partied, and went home with my hot girlfriend after most meets. I’d be full of regrets if I conducted myself in any other way.

      a sad, sad post……

      Was it the Footloose joke?

    • #41527
      Balki
      Member

      No

    • #41528

      @Balki wrote:

      No

      You’re right. The Footloose joke was pretty funny.

    • #41529
      tigercolter
      Member

      Happy Holidays from Jim Steen

      http://www.elfyourself.com/?id=1172088559

    • #41530
      Low Tide
      Member

      I side with Scotty Bowman as the greatest coach of all time.

      I almost wish I had gone to visit Kenyon on a recruiting trip now… I’m just so curious as to how Steen recruits. I was just too much of a city boy at the time to really consider those schools out in the middle of nowhere in Ohio.

    • #41531
      Colbybr
      Member

      I’m a big Counsilman fan myself. Its really interesting to read the articles he was publishing 30-40 years ago. So much of it is still very relevant these days.

    • #41532
      maverick1
      Member

      for swimming it’s easily counsilman in my opinion, the fight for second best coach would be interesting though with dick quick, bob bowman, eddie reese, that aussie guy who trained popov and the aussies, david marsh is up there, as well as Salo. I think until someone really revolutionizes the sport, the way that Counsilman did, that he’s the best.

      for professional sports i go with: phil jackson….if my memory serves me correct, he’s tied with scotty bowman for total championships, but is still coaching so i think he’ll win another. plus, he coached the bulls and that’s worth something in my book 🙂

    • #41533
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Can’t forget George Haines. He and Doc are tied in my mind.

    • #41534
      Colbybr
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      Can’t forget George Haines. He and Doc are tied in my mind.

      Definitely, I think George is less well known now but equally a great coach.

    • #41535
      maverick1
      Member

      Yeah, good point on haines

    • #41536
      Low Tide
      Member

      Sorry, Bowman would eat Jackson and spit him out along with all the other sissies he eats for breakfast every single day. The man still eats sissies for breakfast, for christ’s sake!

      Jackson is not even universally regarded as even the best basketball coach ever (Auerbach, and some still cling to Riley).

    • #41537
      swim5599
      Member

      Doc is up there with Eddie Reese, and the others but I am not sure I can put Salo into that category yet. I said yet he may get there but not right now.

    • #41538
      wonderboy33
      Member

      1. Doc Counsilman
      2. George Haines
      3. Richard Quick
      4. Don Gambril
      5. Bill Sweetenham
      6. Jon Urbanchek
      7. Eddie Reese
      8. Skip Kenney
      9. Mark Schubert
      10. David Salo

      You can probably throw Dick Hannula or Peter Daland in place of a few on the list. Salo is in there because if anyone has revolutionized the sport in the last 20 years, it’s him.

    • #41539
      Colbybr
      Member

      No Don Talbot or any other Australian coaches besides Sweets?

    • #41540
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Colbybr wrote:

      No Don Talbot or any other Australian coaches besides Sweets?

      Good point. It’s so tough to judge as there have been so many great coaches over the years. You can make a case for a number of guys, like Talbot, Marsh, Rose, etc.

    • #41541
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Dick Shoulberg…

    • #41542
      swim5599
      Member

      I don’t think we can put Salo in ahead of Marsh can we? And if we put Marsh in there we have to put Mike Bottom

    • #41543
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I don’t think we can put Salo in ahead of Marsh can we? And if we put Marsh in there we have to put Mike Bottom

      You can make a case for Marsh ahead of Salo. I guess I was mostly going with Salo’s philosophy of lower-yardage, high intensity practices with a focus on maintaining technique. I’m not sure that Bottom could replace any on the list.

    • #41544
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Put up your lists and we can compare and discuss.

    • #41545
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I’ll retract Salo as I may be biased there. Who would go in his place? Marsh, Talbot, Steen?

    • #41546
      swim5599
      Member

      I’m not saying Bottom should necessarily be on that list, but a lot of the things that Marsh and other have done with the Auburn sprinters come from the time that Bottom spent with there working with Pilczuk.

    • #41547
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Taking resume out of the equation, and looking strictly at contribution to swimming, Bill Boomer would have to be considered as well for his work with balance and stabilization. But maybe I’m clouding the picture too much.

    • #41548
      t3hhammer
      Member

      Mike Bottom needs to be on any top 10 list of coaches. He has done more to revolutionize sprint training than just about anyone in the last 20 years. Remember the Cal relays that set the sprint records not too long ago? Look at what he’s done with Gary (even though most of you hate Gary for some reason he’s still fast…) or look at what he’s doing with the Race Club right now. I’d bet that those guys are going to rock at the Olympics.

    • #41549
      JHU84
      Member

      I think you need to put steen on the list – he has taken many swimmers and really improved them and his streak is unprecedented

    • #41550
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @t3hhammer wrote:

      Mike Bottom needs to be on any top 10 list of coaches. He has done more to revolutionize sprint training than just about anyone in the last 20 years. Remember the Cal relays that set the sprint records not too long ago? Look at what he’s done with Gary (even though most of you hate Gary for some reason he’s still fast…) or look at what he’s doing with the Race Club right now. I’d bet that those guys are going to rock at the Olympics.

      I’m with you but I’m not sure who he’d replace on the list.

    • #41551
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @JHU84 wrote:

      I think you need to put steen on the list – he has taken many swimmers and really improved them and his streak is unprecedented

      This guy is just trying to get me going right?

    • #41552
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Nort Thornton is a big one that I thought of as well. Perhaps he would replace Salo for now. I sat in front of him at a coaches clinic as he bragged about the size of the breasts of the waitress he had at Hooters. That’s extraordinary.

    • #41553
      JHU84
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      @JHU84 wrote:

      I think you need to put steen on the list – he has taken many swimmers and really improved them and his streak is unprecedented

      This guy is just trying to get me going right?

      No not trying to get you going you can do that all by yourself. How do you get your head through the doorway. I guess you are the self proclaimed expert on all.

      I am not a big kenyon fan but I respected them as an opponent and what they have done, you have to give steen credit and recruiting is a big part of it, recognizing kids with talant that will improve is another big component. He has done excellent on both fronts.

      There are alot of great coaches who have never coached an olypic athlete but the are great at getting the best out of what they have to work with.

    • #41554
      Derek
      Member

      I think you have to make different lists – college coaches, development coaches, and revolutionary coaches. One could make the argument that only revolutionary coaches should be on the list, but then you’re stuck with a pretty short list, and you’re probably better off talking about revolutionary swimmers as much as their coaches.

      I can see somebody like Steen near the top of a college coaches list, but not anywhere near the top of a developmental coaches list. Bowman, on the other hand (given that he is primarily responsible for Phelps) would have to go near the top of the developmental coaches list, but until he makes Michigan (not just Club Wolverine) truly dominant, he won’t be near the college coaches list. To find the best developmental coaches, we really have to look before college and find the coaches that are consistently producing swimmers that just blow up once they hit college.

      In the revolutionary category, there is also Sherm Chavoor of Arden Hills (CA).

    • #41555
      maverick1
      Member

      developmental coaches….. i’m thinking dave salo is up there

    • #41556
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @JHU84 wrote:

      No not trying to get you going you can do that all by yourself. How do you get your head through the doorway. I guess you are the self proclaimed expert on all.

      I am not a big kenyon fan but I respected them as an opponent and what they have done, you have to give steen credit and recruiting is a big part of it, recognizing kids with talant that will improve is another big component. He has done excellent on both fronts.

      There are alot of great coaches who have never coached an olypic athlete but the are great at getting the best out of what they have to work with.

      Though I’m not sure I made a proclamation regarding my expertise on this issue, I will go with your opinion. Thank you for affirming this non-existent self-proclamation.

      Though I agree that there are different types of coaches out there coaching at different levels, I took that into account during the decision-making process. You will notice a couple of things about the list.

      First, nearly all of the names on the list are in the American Swim Coaches Association Hall of Fame. The exceptions are Bill Sweetenham and Dave Salo. Second, ASCA doesn’t categorize coaches at different levels. Some of the coaches on the list have been primarily college coaches, some have been club coaches, many have been both. The distinction between college, developmental (I’m assuming you mean club), and revolutionary doesn’t need to be made.

      In order to reach the ASCA Hall of Fame, coaches need to meet the following criteria:

      1. Must have coached at the high school, club, and/or college level for a period of 20 years or more.

      2. Must meet 3 of the following criteria:
      -Placing a team in the top ten at USA Swimming Nationals and/or top ten at NCAA D1 Nationals, or the top two teams at D2 or D3 Nationals.
      -Coaching an individual US Summer Champion
      -Coaching an individual US Olympic Medalist
      -Coaching a US Olympic Medalist or World Record Holder
      -Making a significant contribution to the sport of swimming, community, and/or profession

      Each year, coaches must be nominated by a current ASCA Member and need to be approved by a 75% vote of the ASCA Board.

      Jim Steen doesn’t belong on this list. I’m sorry that this hurts some of you but it is no slight to him. This is a great list of coaches and not making the list doesn’t mean that you aren’t good or even great. If we had a list of the best college coaches, perhaps he would make it on the list. I’m going to say no, but that’s just my opinion. I’m only a self-proclaimed expert with one fan.

      If I were to list the greatest college coaches, I would start with D1 and work my way down. You’ll notice that the list of criteria allows for the top ten D1 coaches and the top 2 coaches from D2 and D3. It seems ASCA believes that D1 is the place to start as well.

    • #41557
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      In the revolutionary category, there is also Sherm Chavoor of Arden Hills (CA).

      I agree with you here. He is in the ASCA Hall of Fame and revolutionary. Some of the other names I threw out there aren’t in the HOF but are great coaches as well.

    • #41558

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      First, nearly all of the names on the list are in the American Swim Coaches Association Hall of Fame.

      There’s a swimming hall of fame? That’s pretty sweet. Where is it?

      Back to the discussion, and I’m even going to take this discussion back to football, Jim Steen is comparable to SJU (d3) football coach John Gagliardi, who is the only active football coach to be inducted into the college football hall of fame. I don’t think Jim Steen is anywhere close to a top 10 coach of all time, and Gagliardi is not as well. But I’d put Steen in the top 100.

      http://www.gojohnnies.com/football/jg.htm

    • #41559

      International Swimming Hall of Fame is in Ft. Lauderdale, but this is a different entity than the ASCA Hall of Fame. I believe, but someone will correct me if I am wrong, that to enter ISHOF it goes through FINA but the ASCA Hall of Fame is through ASCA membership. I also don’t believe that ASCA has a “Hall of Fame Building” like ISHOF, although I bet they probably have something in their offices, which is also coincidently in Ft. Lauderdale.

    • #41560
      swim5599
      Member

      I would put Steen on the list as well. Correct me if Im wrong but I want to say he was really influential in starting/developing the power rack. I could be wrong, but the power rack is the single most important development in sprinting ever.

    • #41561
      CRUNCHYSOCK
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I would put Steen on the list as well. Correct me if Im wrong but I want to say he was really influential in starting/developing the power rack. I could be wrong, but the power rack is the single most important development in sprinting ever.

      Meh. I’ll take 3 milk jugs and a pair of panyhose any day…

    • #41562
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      I could be wrong, but the power rack is the single most important development in sprinting ever.

      How about whoever was the first to say “Hey, I bet I could hold my breath for most of that race!”

    • #41563
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      How about whoever was the first to say “Hey, I bet I could hold my breath for most of that race!”

      Nice work.

    • #41564
      swim5599
      Member

      HAHA awesome. Pretty creative point. So what has been the most important thing to happen to sprinting the power rack or holding your breath for the 50?

    • #41565
      Colbybr
      Member

      The power rack, IMO, is highly overrated. But I kinda feel that way about most equipment.

    • #41566
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      HAHA awesome. Pretty creative point. So what has been the most important thing to happen to sprinting the power rack or holding your breath for the 50?

      Or…the flip turn. Or…the 6 beat kick. Or…the streamline. Or…looking down instead of forward. Need I continue?

    • #41567

      I got one more important that any of those… the underwater kick is by far the most revolutionary change in swimming in the last 20 years. Not even close. It has completely changed the way people swim fly and back, and if you watch Phelps’ 200 Free WR you will see the difference is in underwater kick as well.

      I think you would have to give credit for it to people like Jeff Rouse and Misty Hyman and their coaches out at Stanford. They made it popular and made people change the rules. I don’t know exactly who to credit though.

    • #41568
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      I think you would have to give credit for it to people like Jeff Rouse and Misty Hyman and their coaches out at Stanford. They made it popular and made people change the rules. I don’t know exactly who to credit though.

      David Berkoff was the first swimmer to “discover” that swimming underwater is faster than swimming over the water.

    • #41569
      Low Tide
      Member

      The “Berkoff Blast”!!! 🙂

      Great stuff.

    • #41570

      Very Correct, mind blanked on me for a second there.

    • #41571
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      I got one more important that any of those… the underwater kick is by far the most revolutionary change in swimming in the last 20 years. Not even close. It has completely changed the way people swim fly and back, and if you watch Phelps’ 200 Free WR you will see the difference is in underwater kick as well.

      I think you would have to give credit for it to people like Jeff Rouse and Misty Hyman and their coaches out at Stanford. They made it popular and made people change the rules. I don’t know exactly who to credit though.

      I like how you think. I was thinking of that as well when I mentioned streamline.

    • #41572
      Colbybr
      Member

      Are we sure Berkoff was the first? I thought this was disputed.

    • #41573
      Low Tide
      Member

      I would not be suprised if he was not the “first”, but he was certainly the first responsible for really getting it noticed.

      I’m sure some fat kid in his backyard pool got sick of using his arms once and noticed he could go faster by kicking longer, way before Berkoff did.

    • #41574
      babwik
      Member

      I heard that a swimmer from Iowa or Iowa state tried it at NCAAs in the backstroke, but was not fully trained/prepared for the oxygen debt, was way ahead at the 75 and died like crazy. This was the inspiration for others like Berkoff to train for it and develop it into a useful tool.

      Not sure at all of the accuracy of this, but thought I’d submit the story I’d been told. Berkoff is a regular message boarder over at collegeswimming.com, I’m sure he’d reply if you asked over there.

    • #41575
      Anonymous
      Member

      The first time that I saw underwater kicking used at a championship meet was by the University of Iowa backstrokers at the 1980 Big 10 Championships held at the University of Michigan. Tom Roemer, I believe, won the event and kicked about 20 yards off each wall during the 1st 50 and about 15+ on the 2nd half. Iowa went 1-2 in the event … the other backstroker’s name escapes me … but both used it very effectively.

      Berkoff was the guy who drew all the attention to the technique and ultimately forced FINA to adopt the 15m rule. But he was not the 1st one to use it. The underwater kick was used at least 8 years before he arrived on the national scene.

    • #41576
      Low Tide
      Member

      Here’s a recent interview with David Berkoff:
      http://www.timedfinals.com/18042007/exclusive-interview-with-underwater-kick-king-david-berkoff/

      The first comment:

      In 1980 at the State of Michigan LC meet I saw a guy leadoff the medley relay with underwater dolphin kicking for about 25 meters. That fall I swam at Central Michigan and somehow mentioned this and found out it was a fellow freshman that did this. Its time to give him his due–his name is Jim Maples and he was from Okemos. But I guess Berkoff took it further 🙂

      Berkoff has stated in a number of interviews I read that he had never seen it used before (but is sure someone, somewhere, was probably doing it before him).

    • #41577

      Jesse Vasallo, former WR holder and World Champion in the 400 IM’s and I think the 200 back, used the underwater kick off the turns in the Olympic Final of the 200 back in 1984 in LA. I think this is the first really prominent use of it for backstroke.

      Besides Berkoff, the Princeton backstroker in 1989 and 1990 used the backstroke intensively. So much so that he led Princeton’s 200 MR to win the 200 MR at NCAA’s in 1989 and 1990. The years may be slightly off, but 1989 was the first year the 200 relays were swum at NCAA’s. Look it up.

      Berkoff got silver in the 100 back in 1988 to Daichi Suzuki from Japan. Berkoff won bronze in 1992 behind Tewksbury from Canada and Jeff Rouse.

    • #41578
      Colbybr
      Member

      That Princeton backstroker was Mike Ross. And he still swims to this day in club meets. And he’s still fast http://www.swimindex.net/live/2007/neseniors/071206F020.htm

      Sort of irrelevant but I just thought i’d add it.

    • #41579
      h2ocoach13
      Member

      I respect all views that have been presented here; a great variety of critical thinking.

      A couple points of my own:
      1. Coach Steen is the winningest coach of any sport at any level in the USA. He turned Gambier into a D3 swimming mecca with a long legacy of production and success. Lower level than many D1 conferneces? yes. But better than others? also yes.
      This legacy is somewhat comparable to David Marsh @ Auburn. Both men turned underachieving programs into absolute powerhouses, (both using a lot of foreign talent too).

      2. Coach Steen’s success is DIRECTLY related to his work ethic. While I wouldn’t go out on the limb and say he is the best ever, he is arguably the hardest working, without question. Some may equal. I don’t think anyone out-does.

      Considering both points, I agree that it is difficult to comare apples to apples or Steen to others (Marsh, Reese, Quick, Bauerle, etc….), nor should they be. Different beasts, but it is a fun argument to consider.

    • #41580
      99 Red
      Member

      Small point, but Steen didn’t inherent a bad Kenyon team when he walked onto Gambier all those many years ago. Kenyon’s mens team has only lost 1 conference meet in the past 50 years. Certainly Steen has taken the team to another level, but they were good before he got there.

    • #41581
      Derek
      Member

      99 Red (or other Denison-ites), I am wondering about Denison – can somebody describe the Kenyon-Denison relationship and Denison’s rise? I am totally assuming that there was a Denison rise at some point, although I really have no idea about the history of your team.

    • #41582
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @h2ocoach13 wrote:

      2. Coach Steen’s success is DIRECTLY related to his work ethic. While I wouldn’t go out on the limb and say he is the best ever, he is arguably the hardest working, without question. Some may equal. I don’t think anyone out-does.

      I wish I could be hard-working enough to take a year off from my job and evaluate why I’m so successful (according to Steen himself in a NY Times article).

    • #41583
      swim5599
      Member

      First of all we need to remember what happened the year before he took that recent year off.

    • #41584
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      First of all we need to remember what happened the year before he took that recent year off.

      Ok, I’ll bite. What happened?

    • #41585
      babwik
      Member

      I am fuzzy on the details, but I believe there was a team van accident where a swimmer lost her life.

    • #41586
      Colbybr
      Member

      The van accident happened a lot later. I think maybe in 2000 or even later. So that would be unrelated to his 1996 sabbatical

    • #41587
      silentp
      Member

      @Colbybr wrote:

      The van accident happened a lot later. I think maybe in 2000 or even later. So that would be unrelated to his 1996 sabbatical

      Van accident happened my junior year of high school, so during the 99-00 season.

    • #41588
      swim5599
      Member

      He took another leave in 2001, because Cassares was the head coach at nationals that year. The van incident took place in 2000.

    • #41589

      @swim5599 wrote:

      He took another leave in 2001, because Cassares was the head coach at nationals that year. The van incident took place in 2000.

      Did he also pretend to coach in the Olympics that year?

    • #41590
      Derek
      Member

      Mac, was that a joke? Sometimes humor is difficult to understand in the written form.

    • #41591
      007
      Member

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Did he also pretend to coach in the Olympics that year?

      What are you on about? I was in D3 around that time and here is my understanding of his first sabbatical: When the Olympics come around the best coaches are asked to collaborate to produce the best results. Since Steen was asked to do so I guess that means he is pretty good first of all. Second of all, he should be allowed to take a year off of swimming because he has been doing it for so long without a break. Instead he took a year off to teach others in an effort to improve the Olympic Team, as well as learn from the best to help improve his own team.

      The second time was in order to get money for the new athletic center at Kenyon, which was also to improve his team as well as D3 swimming. So no he wasn’t being lazy, both times he was trying to better his team. I can’t wait to see what you say when he actually retires.

      So if making fun of people that have been successful in D3 swimming gets you off then you’re pathetic and obviously compensating for something. So I don’t know what your problem is, but please grow up.

    • #41592
      Vic
      Member

      @swim5599 wrote:

      He took another leave in 2001, because Cassares was the head coach at nationals that year. The van incident took place in 2000.

      I think he took the leave in 2002.

    • #41593
      wonderboy33
      Member

      @007 wrote:

      @Mac of the MIAC wrote:

      Did he also pretend to coach in the Olympics that year?

      What are you on about? I was in D3 around that time and here is my understanding of his first sabbatical: When the Olympics come around the best coaches are asked to collaborate to produce the best results. Since Steen was asked to do so I guess that means he is pretty good first of all. Second of all, he should be allowed to take a year off of swimming because he has been doing it for so long without a break. Instead he took a year off to teach others in an effort to improve the Olympic Team, as well as learn from the best to help improve his own team.

      The second time was in order to get money for the new athletic center at Kenyon, which was also to improve his team as well as D3 swimming. So no he wasn’t being lazy, both times he was trying to better his team. I can’t wait to see what you say when he actually retires.

      So if making fun of people that have been successful in D3 swimming gets you off then you’re pathetic and obviously compensating for something. So I don’t know what your problem is, but please grow up.

      Wait, he has been working this long and only took 2 years off from his job? I stand corrected. He is the hardest working coach in the world. I seriously don’t know how other coaches ask for money without taking a full year off. This seems to be too much for one person to handle. Maybe he can take next year off to evaluate why he is so hard-working given the fact that he figured out why he’s so successful during the 96 sabbatical.

    • #41594

      @Derek wrote:

      Mac, was that a joke? Sometimes humor is difficult to understand in the written form.

      Yes. It was a joke. Though, now that I’ve gotten 007 all worked up, I think it would be reasonable to request that Jim Steen ask Mac of the MIAC’s permission before he decides to take any more time off in the future.

    • #41595

      How hard is coaching swimming? Why would anyone need to take any time off?

      Put it in perspective. It is not like coaches spend hours on game-plans to figure out what the other team will be doing to beat them. And after you’ve been doing this as long as someone like Steen, wouldn’t practices be all but laid out for you? I doubt his workouts change that much from year to year. I would compare it to a teacher who has been around a few years, you get your lesson plans set up based on previous years, and make a few minor adjustments based on the students or new methods you heard about at a conference.

      After the workouts are written, how hard is running a swim practice? Blow whistle, make sure nobody sluffs off, change mix CD from Jock Jams Vol 3 to Jock Jams Vol 4. Yes, you need to motivate. Yes, you need to work with people on their stroke. But I would say running a swim practice is much less labor intensive than the first half of Hoosiers.

      Then lets take into consideration what Steen does in the offseason? Swimming season is about 6 months out of the year for him. I’m sure he runs a few camps in the summer Trent Tucker Hoops style, but again, I’m sure those are scheduled in advance too. Does he teach any classes? Besides Swim Coaching 101? Maybe he does?

      I’m also sure he spends some time recruiting, but this is D3, so it is not like he’s flying around the country to sit down in the living room with the next Greg Oden and kiss his moms ass.

      So for a guy who works about 8 months a year (I’m giving him 2 months for camps and recruiting), can’t he rest the other 4 months of the year? Get some golf in, take some trips to Vegas with the boys, coach some Olympians?

      I could be wrong, maybe he is the hardest worker out there. He might coach 3 sports, volunteer at church, and host BINGO night at the local old folks home. But I’m just saying swim coaching in general can’t be THAT tiring… even after 30 years. Maybe boring, but not tiring.

    • #41596
      JHU84
      Member

      coaching can be very emotionally tring – try it and put your heart in it – it can wear you out especially if you have sideshows like parents. Just the activiness on deck can wear you out, looking for things.

      If you haven’t done it don’t criticize it.

    • #41597

      Really? If we couldn’t criticize things we’ve never done, the only people talking about Bush would be a few old white guys. And Dan Marino would be about the only football analyst out there able to criticize QBs.

      I’ve coached other sports, and yes it is tiring emotionally at times. So are lots of jobs. I won’t piss off Derek and use a slippery slope argument comparing coaching to being a doctor or something. I’m just saying that as far as coaching goes, especially if you’ve been with the same college team for 5+ years, it would seem like a pretty cake gig to me… or at least something you wouldn’t need to take a year off from. But in his defense, I guess it sounds like he took those years to do other coaching related things… like raise money and coach Olympians.

    • #41598
      JHU84
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Really? If we couldn’t criticize things we’ve never done, the only people talking about Bush would be a few old white guys. And Dan Marino would be about the only football analyst out there able to criticize QBs.

      , it would seem like a pretty cake gig to me…

      My point is you are making assumptions and doing anything at 100% is draining whether it is a doctor coach artist… I have volunteered to coach senior level age group and HS kids with our head coach and it does cause lots of burn out especially in some politcally charged towns. It is tiring and I have had some pretty high level stress jobs working in consulting and high tech….sometimes you need a break to stay fresh and enthusiastic swim coaching at a high level is the same.

    • #41599
      Swmr46
      Member

      @JHU84 wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Really? If we couldn’t criticize things we’ve never done, the only people talking about Bush would be a few old white guys. And Dan Marino would be about the only football analyst out there able to criticize QBs.

      , it would seem like a pretty cake gig to me…

      Chapel it is really easy to critique coaching from the outside looking in. As a swimmer, I thought my coach had the easiest job in the world. How hard is it to be a swim coach? Coach practices and meets, do some recruiting and administrative stuff, piece of cake right. I was wrong because I never experience what he went through. I have a lot of respect for my college coach now. I am full time coach now for a college team, I am 24 years old and it stresses me. Also, I had the luxury to ease into it. First being a volunteer then a part time, now as a full time coach. Being a volunteer coach was very easy; my responsibilities were to coach practices. The next year, I had more responsibility with the aquatics and swimming. This year, I work 50-60 hours a week without including meets on the weekend. Here was my schedule mid season this year:

      Wake up: 5:15 am
      Coach Morning Practice : 6:15 – 7:45 am
      Answer all my emails and voicemails about the aquatic programs (which can be very tedious)
      Arrange meals for away meet for that week (if we have one).
      Send out 5-10 recruiting letters.
      Respond to recruit emails.
      Perform Pool Reports and Payroll.
      Book keeping.
      Plan my practice for the afternoon session. 8:00-1:00 pm
      Coach practice from 2:00-4:15 pm, 4:15-6:30 pm.
      Coaching 30 different personalities in a pool is no ease task. Motivating them to work hard and follow the guidelines of practice. Let’s not forget everyone favorite, TEAM DRAMA. It happens on every team and can cause a lot of distractions at practice.
      Make sure swim lessons and water aerobics are running smoothly. I am the supervisor. 6:30-7:30 pm
      Make recruiting calls from 7:30-9:30 pm. Talk to parents and kids about the school. I had calls last up to an hour. It wasn’t me asking the questions or prolonging the call either.
      So my day doesn’t end until 10 pm sometimes. That is my typical week day.
      I work from 6:15 am – 9:30 pm. Broken up with some breaks.

      Ok, let’s not forget about the weekend. I am up at 8 am, to coach am practice at 9:00-10:30 am practice before the meet. The meet starts at 1pm and doesn’t end until 4 pm. If it is away meet, sometimes we aren’t home until 8pm that night. If it is a home meet, team dinner after the meet. Also, it means that it is a recruiting weekend. So I have to talk to recruits and parents after the meet. They sign up for a meeting on Sunday. Then I have to come in Sunday to talk to parents and recruits. The head coach talks to recruits in the meeting but I am outside with the other recruits and parents to answer any of there questions. Sunday can last from 8 – 2 pm.

      I work 19 days straight this year without a day off. Yeah, what happen to coaching being easy like I thought? I learned it takes more to be a head coach then what meets the eye.

    • #41600
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I think it is a misconception to believe that coaching is an easy job. There are many things outside of being on deck that coaches are responsible for. I have been a Head Coach for a USS Club. I was overwhelmed at times with the amount of time I was spending at the pool each day. If you look at our busiest time of the year, we are spending anywhere from 2-6 hours on deck, planning our practices, completing meet entries, scheduling pool time and swim lessons, taking care of pool chemicals and temperature, recruiting, etc. It is a job that usually involves working 7 days per week for not much money (depending on the level).

      In fact, it takes a toll on family life. Many coaches end up divorced due, at least in part, to the fact that they work from morning until night during the season. I’m no exception. It takes a special spouse to understand that there are times in which you won’t see each other during the season. It also takes some effort to make sure that you are spending enough time at home. Sometimes this can only take place after the season is over. It’s a trade-off and it’s a crappy one.

      Having said that, Chapel is right that it’s probably no different than any other job. While coaches put in 50-60 hours per week at their busiest times, they also have time off at the end of the season. This never ends up being actual “time off” but it is a slower time in which they are not working 50-60 hours a week. Those with “real jobs” put in 40 hours per week for the entire year. As an Age Group Coach, I have 1 month off after the short course season, and 1 month off after the long course season. It probably evens out in the end.

      I went into coaching for two reasons. First, it was the one thing that I knew I was good at. I love being involved with swimming. It’s not boring to me. I still get those competitive juices when my kids get up and compete. I love working with my kids. I would be bored sitting at a cubicle all day. Second, I tried to avoid “real work” as much as possible. I found out that if I wanted to be the best coach I could be, I had to work hard. It turns out that it is a “real job”.

      As far as Steen is concerned, I think he’s no different than any other career coach. Do I understand taking a sabbatical? Hell yes. Does it lend itself to being a hard-worker? No. I think there are plenty of coaches out there who put as much time and effort into their jobs without taking years off. In fact, there are coaches that do it for much less money as well. Again, I’m no exception.

    • #41601
      swim5599
      Member

      Yeah for anyone to say that coaching at the college level is an easy job, has either never done it or did not put the needed effort into it. Try doing it, and working a full time job also. My day started at 4:45 am and did not end until after 9pm. It was the greatest experience of my life and I never had trouble sleeping, but it was a lot of hard work. I was coaching 22 kids and it was hard, can’t imagine what it would be like with 4 times that many kids.

    • #41602
      Colbybr
      Member

      Having been both athlete and coach, I think I can sum it concisely. If you are a lazy coach, like anything else, you can turn this into an easier job. If you have any pride in the work you do, it is very very demanding. I get the sense that Jim has a lot of pride in what he does.

    • #41603
      Low Tide
      Member

      I think Steen took a sabbatical(s) because he can. Who wouldn’t?
      If I could take a year off and get paid — seeya! 8)

      It’s like the idiots who are somehow proud they do not use any of their vacation time. Wow, your life voluntarily sucks — you are so awesome.

    • #41604

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      Blow whistle, make sure nobody sluffs off, change mix CD from Jock Jams Vol 3 to Jock Jams Vol 4.

      I applaud you for dropping both Jock Jams Vol 3 & Vol 4 in the same sentence. Though, if it were me, I’d probably do it like this.

      Blow whistle, make sure nobody sluffs off, change mix CD from Jock Jams Vol 3 to Jock Jams Vol 4, hit skip on Push It by Salt n’ Peppa, but play Jump Around more than once.

    • #41605
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Coaching is hard? Really? Goodness I remember telling one of my clients that he lost $60,000 last quarter and thinking, man am I glad that I am not on a pool deck somewhere.

      Give me a break. Any job that you care about is emotionally taxing. But some are less so. Swim coach is at the top of that list.

    • #41606
      aquaholic
      Member

      Coaching is hard? Really? Goodness I remember telling one of my clients that he lost $60,000 last quarter and thinking, man am I glad that I am not on a pool deck somewhere.

      In my business you lose a client $60K, unless you’re managing more than $1M – you’ll be taking a sabattical – an involuntary one.

    • #41607
      JHU84
      Member

      most all jobs have stress, that is why they are jobs. Coaching can be fun and rewarding too, but there is a burn out factor just like NFL, NBA, DI… and there are lots of stressful periods.

      Don’t even try to start with “my job is more stressful because…” Been there, done that.. try telling a fortune 50 CEO he is not going to make his quater and have to explain why in 2 minutes.

      I’ve been in both places and there are similarities and differences and in my opinion, coaching can be very stressful.

    • #41608
      Vic
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      After the workouts are written, how hard is running a swim practice? Blow whistle, make sure nobody sluffs off, change mix CD from Jock Jams Vol 3 to Jock Jams Vol 4. Yes, you need to motivate. Yes, you need to work with people on their stroke. But I would say running a swim practice is much less labor intensive than the first half of Hoosiers.

      You are describing a lazy coach. Great coaches are constantly watching their swimmers and talking to them. They are always active.

    • #41609
      Colbybr
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Coaching is hard? Really? Goodness I remember telling one of my clients that he lost $60,000 last quarter and thinking, man am I glad that I am not on a pool deck somewhere.

      Give me a break. Any job that you care about is emotionally taxing. But some are less so. Swim coach is at the top of that list.

      Its hard to compare professions when you haven’t done both. I haven’t been managing large amounts of money so I can’t speak to how hard your job is. I am a coach and swimming is my life, I know that my job is emotionally and physically taxing. I probably work as many hours as many business professionals (60 hour weeks, but more vacations) but for significantly less compensation. And yes, if you mess up there are large sums of money involved. If I succeed or fail there is very little tangible money on the line, just the success of something your athletes and you have put a lot of time into, and the way it will shape them later in their lives. Its very hard to compare but I don’t think you should denigrate my profession.

    • #41610
      JHU84
      Member

      @Colbybr wrote:

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Coaching is hard? Really? Goodness I remember telling one of my clients that he lost $60,000 last quarter and thinking, man am I glad that I am not on a pool deck somewhere.

      Give me a break. Any job that you care about is emotionally taxing. But some are less so. Swim coach is at the top of that list.

      Its hard to compare professions when you haven’t done both. I haven’t been managing large amounts of money so I can’t speak to how hard your job is. I am a coach and swimming is my life, I know that my job is emotionally and physically taxing. I probably work as many hours as many business professionals (60 hour weeks, but more vacations) but for significantly less compensation. And yes, if you mess up there are large sums of money involved. If I succeed or fail there is very little tangible money on the line, just the success of something your athletes and you have put a lot of time into, and the way it will shape them later in their lives. Its very hard to compare but I don’t think you should denigrate my profession.

      thanks, my point was I have done both and though not coaching to the extent it is my career but rather doing voluntarily and I found it stressful. Retirement has some advantages in letting you try other things, and having a head coach who trusts your abilities enough to hand off his team for 3 weeks with many of the swimmers talanted HS swimmers. There were issues with parents and rumors in this town that it got to me enough that during that time I got hit with bell’s palsy which is stress related.

      I fully respect what coaches do and can easily tell the ones that give it 100% and the ones that are biding time for a paycheck, big difference.

    • #41611
      DonCheadle
      Member

      It is not a denigration of coaching to say that it is not as hard as other jobs any more than it is a denigration to say that it is easier to walk than it is to run. And we should not be required to work ourselves to the ground – emotionally, mentally or physically – to feel that we are doing some worthwhile.

    • #41612
      NCACDork
      Member

      Agreed DonCheadle.

      When are we going to have our next D3 swimming get-together, like we did when nationals were in Holland?

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