Hope vs Oakland

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    • #12196
      silentp
      Member

      http://www.ougrizzlies.com/menssports/swimdive/Results/2006-07/hope0107.htm

      Heyboer 4:08 in the 400 IM, wow!

      Nothing else impressive though, by the main guys anyway. CVB’s 200 free was nice, the rest of them were dissappointing to me, although this is a time of very hard training and that 400 IM basically makes up for all of it 🙂

    • #33548
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I thought there were a lot of good swims by the dutch. Keep in mind, that 4:08 was his 4th swim of the day.

      There were some really solid swims by the sprinters, 21.3 and 21.8 on the relays, 22.2 by Kurti and 2 47 splits. I think Hope’s 200 Free Relay will go 1:23.6 or so at MIAAs.

      How fast is James Richardson going to be? I’d like to see that guy do a 200 free. Knowing noithing about him accept his times, it seems like he might be well suited for that race.

    • #33549
      Stevo
      Member

      James Richardson has found himself in a role that no one predicted at the start of the season. With the loss of Gardner he has found himself as someone that has to fills the distance void for Hope. In my opinion he will be a 4:45 in the 500, he will also swim the 200 and go a 1:47 low. I haven’t seen him swim so take my predictions as you will but from what i hear from guys on the team and coaches he has a ton of potential.

      As for a 4:08 out of Heyboer that is one heck of a swim. His other swims were pretty mediocre (and that is a relative term) but 4:08 in season, right after christmas break training, on his fourth swim of the meet, is exciting. I think he will be 4:00 at NCAA’s in the 4IM. I also think he should swim the 500 free at MIAA’s. Yes Krone has already been a 4:35, but Phil isn’t a sure win in the 200 IM and Hope has so many IM’ers (waterstone, nelis, engers, collins, hoesch, and possibly rose) why not put Heyboer in a weaker event for Hope so he isn’t taking more points away from other guys that could final in the IM. Just my .02

      I agree with you cheadle, hope’s 200 FR will be quick, and i also think this year hope will have 5 very solid relays, none that are super spectacular but all really solid.

    • #33550
      stewie
      Member

      Richardson was 1:51.96 at the mid-season meet. The 200 is a bit short for him.

    • #33551
      swim5599
      Member

      Yeah that 4:08 was blazing. Imagine what he could have done if he did not have to swim the 1000 and the 200 back ahead of that. Granted based on the splits it looked like he had a lot left at the end of that 1000

    • #33552
      Milhouse
      Member

      Yeah, it’s almost as if he was saving up for the 400IM…

      But seriously, when it’s all said and done, this Heyboer kid might be one of the most impressive all-around swimmers the MIAA has ever seen. All this talk about what events he’ll swim at league meet reminds me of the Vic Stover Era…except that Heyboer has competition in some events. But he is merely a freshman, so I’ll save the prognostications for next year.

      And Stevo…what the hell is wrong with you in predicting a 4:00 out of him at nats? Do you doubt he can go 3:59.99?

    • #33553
      Stevo
      Member

      Milhouse i tried to be pretty conservative with my prediction. I didn’t want to go to over the top. What do I really in my gut think he can go…3:58.0. I think that Phil has so much talent and his bread and butter is definitely the 4IM.

    • #33554
      Derek
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Milhouse i tried to be pretty conservative with my prediction. I didn’t want to go to over the top. What do I really in my gut think he can go…3:58.0. I think that Phil has so much talent and his bread and butter is definitely the 4IM.

      Gotta admit that up to this point I hadn’t been that impressed… but now, maybe it is just because he went faster than my best ever tapered time in my best event while he was 4 events into the meet and not rested, but now I’m impressed. Really impressed.

    • #33555
      swim5599
      Member

      I could see him breaking 4 minutes. IT does not seem that he has a weakness at all.

    • #33556
      Ghost Rider
      Member

      I thought Heyboer’s weakness was obvious, the butterfly. He hasn’t led one 400 IM race after the fly portion yet this year. A 58 in a 100 fly is not fast for someone that goes a 4:05. If Patnott fixes this he would be very tough to beat.

      Possible splits:
      55.5 (55.9 in best 400 IM)
      59.5 (his best 200 back is 1:52.0)
      1:07 ( breastroke was 1:09 at Oakland)
      54.5 (was 55.1 at Wheaton on this split)
      3:56.5

      What about Yury at MIAA’s, he has been swimming out of his mind this year so far and was 4:10 at MIAA’s last year. What could he go? If he swims the 400 IM at MIAA’s could we see him battling Heyboer in this race? Both will be pretty pumped because of the closeness of the meet between their teams.

    • #33557
      stewie
      Member

      Good point about Yuri. I think it will be more of race than some people think. Yury has already posted times that were equal to his MIAA taper times from last year. I also think he could be a threat in the 2 IM. He has already been 1:58 (his MIAA time from last year). I think he could be 1:55. With his freestyle leg very strong, he will have it coming home verses Heyboer and Waterstone in the IMs.

    • #33558
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      Good point about Yuri. I think it will be more of race than some people think. Yury has already posted times that were equal to his MIAA taper times from last year. I also think he could be a threat in the 2 IM. He has already been 1:58 (his MIAA time from last year). I think he could be 1:55. With his freestyle leg very strong, he will have it coming home verses Heyboer and Waterstone in the IMs.

      Not to downplay Yury at all, but i believe he went a 1:58 or 1:59 in season last year as well. He could have a better taper this year though. Also, nice to include Heyboer and Waterstone, but not Dekker. Remember Dekker is far ahead of where he was last year at this point.

    • #33559
      Ricky Bobby
      Member

      Milhouse brings up a great point about the Vic area of MIAA swimming. Let’s take it one step further with the Heyboer era now upon us with a head to head comparison.

      50 Free – Stover. Heyboer hasn’t shown speed and Stover was on 200 Free Relays in March.
      100 Free – Stover. See above
      200 Free – toss up. To date Stover has a better time but I’m not sure if Heyboer has swum the event rested.
      500 Free – Heyboer.
      1650 – Heyboer
      100 Back – Heyboer
      200 Back – Heyboer
      100 Fly – Stover
      200 Fly – Stover
      100 Breast – Heyboer
      200 Breast – Heyboer
      100 IM – toss up
      200 IM – Heyboer
      400 IM – Heyboer
      1 M diving – Stover
      3 M diving – Stover

      one man’s thoughts.

    • #33560
      swim5599
      Member

      I think 3:56 might be a little fast for Heyboer I was thinking more like 3:59, I could see all of those splits with the exception of the fly split. If he is out 56 high he would be fine. I could see him coming home in 55 low based on the fact that he is a good 500 guy.

    • #33561
      stewie
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      @stewie wrote:

      Good point about Yuri. I think it will be more of race than some people think. Yury has already posted times that were equal to his MIAA taper times from last year. I also think he could be a threat in the 2 IM. He has already been 1:58 (his MIAA time from last year). I think he could be 1:55. With his freestyle leg very strong, he will have it coming home verses Heyboer and Waterstone in the IMs.

      Not to downplay Yury at all, but i believe he went a 1:58 or 1:59 in season last year as well. He could have a better taper this year though. Also, nice to include Heyboer and Waterstone, but not Dekker. Remember Dekker is far ahead of where he was last year at this point.

      sorry about not mentioning Dekker. I figured he was the obvious favorite for the 2 IM…I think Yuri and Waterstone will be fighting for second. As for the 4 IM, I figured Dekker will swim the 1 fly and not the 4 IM.

    • #33562
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      sorry about not mentioning Dekker. I figured he was the obvious favorite for the 2 IM…I think Yuri and Waterstone will be fighting for second. As for the 4 IM, I figured Dekker will swim the 1 fly and not the 4 IM.

      So you must be thinking Heyboer in the 500. Might be smarter from a points perspective, but that’s not usually how Patnott works from what i’ve seen and from what other Hope posters have said in the past.

      Waterstone is a bit underrated (on these boards), i think, in the 2IM, but overrated in other events (see past 400 IM discussion). He wasn’t too far from making NCAAs last year, and with this being his senior year, I think he is for sure an individual qualifying threat.

    • #33563
      Stevo
      Member

      So you must be thinking Heyboer in the 500. Might be smarter from a points perspective, but that’s not usually how Patnott works from what i’ve seen and from what other Hope posters have said in the past.

      I would agree with you that this isn’t the normal patnott decision, but when was the last time the league meet was going to be this close? Yeah last year was close but the last person i talked with who scored out the meet had olivet winning by 6 points. So whether it’s patnott’s norm, it’s necessary. I think having Taber and Hamstra as Assistants has helped the decision (if that is what actually happens).

      I think Heyboer and Krone will be a great race. I don’t think Phil will let Krone get a huge lead at the beginning of the race like he did to Gardner last year. And it will come down to who wants it more.

    • #33564
      Aflac
      Member

      1 Krone, Paul Albion-MI 4:38.36 4:35.16 B 16
      24.55 50.71-(26.16) 1:17.15-(27.04) 1:45.4-(27.65) 2:13.35-(27.95) 2:41.64-(28.29) 3:09.74-(28.10) 3:38.44-(28.70)
      4:07.05-(28.61) 4:35.16-(28.11)

      2 Heyboer, Phil 12 Hol Christian 4:38.07 4:36.57
      25.26 52.88-(27.62) 1:20.82-(27.94) 1:48.92-(28.10)
      2:16.97-(28.05) 2:44.88-(27.91) 3:13.21-(28.33) 3:41.28-(28.07)
      4:09.38-(28.10) 4:36.57-(27.19)

      It would be a great race if we get to see it. Krone would certainly open up a lead but he wouldn’t open up the gap he had last year. If Heyboer doesn’t let him get away, maybe, just maybe, he’d be able to close on him.

      Stevo makes a great point that from a historical standpoint, Heyboer will be in the 200 IM. From a points standpoint I’d like to hear how Hope is better off with him there though.

    • #33565
      stewie
      Member

      Hope is better off with Heyboer in the 500 from a points perspective. The 2 IM will be crowded with Hope guys who will need to do everything they can to make it back and score (King, Collins, Nelis, Engers, Hoesch, etc). On the other hand, the 500 is one of the weakest events in the MIAA right now and Hope will only have a couple guys in the event. Also, with Gardner gone no one can really challenge Krone and Hope has no real distance stud…besides Heyboer. Who knows maybe Waterstone could upset Dekker and win the IM and Heyboer could upset Krone and win the 500?? Either way Hope will split up their big guns so they are not racing each other. As far as NCAA’s, Heyboer should make it in with 4 IM and 2bk so he will probably swim the 2 IM at nationals.

    • #33566
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      Hope is better off with Heyboer in the 500 from a points perspective. The 2 IM will be crowded with Hope guys who will need to do everything they can to make it back and score (King, Collins, Nelis, Engers, Hoesch, etc). On the other hand, the 500 is one of the weakest events in the MIAA right now and Hope will only have a couple guys in the event. Also, with Gardner gone no one can really challenge Krone and Hope has no real distance stud…besides Heyboer. Who knows maybe Waterstone could upset Dekker and win the IM and Heyboer could upset Krone and win the 500?? Either way Hope will split up their big guns so they are not racing each other. As far as NCAA’s, Heyboer should make it in with 4 IM and 2bk so he will probably swim the 2 IM at nationals.

      Even if Heyboer takes 2nd, which would be my prediction becuase i see Krone around 4:32 this year, it’s still a good move, although it would hurt, but not kill his MVP chances, which he is the current leader on my board for.

      Also, remember that beyond Yury, Olivet isn’t especially strong in the 2IM, so Hope is already knocking them down there, whereas Hope has as many as 4 guys with the potential to be under 4:50 (if they swim it) which could qualify them for finals, again potentially. With Heyboer in it, they have a shot at sneaking 2 guys into finals (with Jrich), leaving Olivet with only a few slots to put guys in.

    • #33567
      Stevo
      Member

      P,
      you really think Krone will be a 4:32? Not saying that is not possible i just have never been a big advocate of Albion’s training, and to have him already 5:35 was a great swim. But the reason (in my opinion) he had such a good time at the Wheaton Invite was because of his summer training. That was a good taper swim and i don’t see him going much faster than 4:34.0, is it possible yes, but I will take a Patnott trained 4:36 than a Albion trained 4:35. That’s just me.

      As for the Im, hope has plenty, how about Matt Rose that has been a 1:58, do you put him in the IM instead of the 50?

    • #33568
      Stevo
      Member

      ok….Rose only went a 1:59.7, my bad. I would say 50 because he will be swimming 4 relays and to add another 300 yards to his meet with the IM wouldn’t be smart.

    • #33569
      Derek
      Member

      I know you are talking about the 500, but in defense of Albion’s training, I would take Albion over Hope for distance. My reason is that Albion had the MIAA open record in the mile until Scott Whitbeck broke it a few years back…. And now Kalamazoo and Albion are the only two teams in the MIAA with guys under 16:00 in the mile.

      Of course the implications for the 500 are less clear, however, any argument that proposes that Albion’s training will be the problem has an inherent flaw in that Albion distance training is clearly superior than Hope’s, all other things being equal. I agree that using the same logic Hope is better at training the 500, given the historical top times, but I really don’t think that Albion’s training can be called into question here.

      Hope does has 6 historical time under 4:40 in the 500… Anybody know what Albion has?

    • #33570
      swim5599
      Member

      If Heyboer goes 4:34 in the 500 a conf why would he not swim that at nats? I am still confused on that one. We know he went 1:54 in the Im in december, but that time probably would not get him selected, and we know the 4:34 would have a shot to score. So I don’t understand why he would swim the IM at nats.

    • #33571
      silentp
      Member

      I think for anything other than distance swimming, we’d all take Hope, but for distance swimming, i’d go with Albion. They have consistently produced solid distance swimmers who final at MIAAs after being not so good in high school. I won’t really look at historical data as far as top 10 lists, because that can simply be based on the talent of swimmers a school has had the most talent.
      Last year, Krone went into MIAAs with a 4:41 and everyone chose Gardner, because he obviously had the much faster PR. Krone dropped from his 4:41 at Wheaton to a 4:35 at MIAAs and basically destroyed the rest of the heat. I don’t know how his training was different this past summer, perhaps Stevo does, I don’t know though, so i can only guess it was similar. Either way, he comes in 6 seconds faster than he went in last year, so i wouldn’t see 4:32 as too much of a shock. I also believe the 1650 record is in serious jeopardy and will go down with the first sub 15:50.
      Also, if Heyboer tries to stick with Krone as was suggested earlier, he will fall off the pace and lose badly, adding time. He needs to swim his own race for any chance to win. But what do i know, i’m the one who was called crazy or almost idiotic for taking Dekker over Waterstone last year in the 2IM.

    • #33572
      Stevo
      Member

      Derek are we talking about the mile or the 500? Which program has had more success in the 500…Hope. I will take a 4:36 500 training at hope than a 5:35 training at albion. You can defend whoever you want.

      Silentp- I think it will be different with Heyboer, he doesnt’ necessarily need to swim his own race, if you look at most of the 500’s he has swam, he always seems to have plenty left in the tank. So if he keeps it close through 350 yards it will be a great finish. That is the same statement we said about Gardner last year, “

      if Heyboer tries to stick with Krone as was suggested earlier, he will fall off the pace and lose badly, adding time. He needs to swim his own race for any chance to win.

      and look what happened to rulon. If Krone gets to far ahead it’s over.

    • #33573

      Stevo,

      Good to see you’ve figured out how to use a computer.

      You are right though. Krone doesn’t necessarily have the mental advantage in the 500 just because he will be 2 body lengths ahead at the 200 mark. NASA knows that Heyboer swim his race completely inverse to his own style and he, more than Heyboer, will be feeling the heat in the last 200… In fact, he does exact integrals in his head and performs instantaneous rate analysis during the race. I also heard he installed a particle accelerator in his arm. The guy is amazing.

      Is anyone else having an extremely pathetic work-day?

    • #33574
      Stevo
      Member

      Pancho- It’s friday January 12 and i sell boats…i will let you make your own conclusions about what my work day would be like. Probably busier than you would think.

      Could this be the start of In Heyboer we trust? and the Heyboer fan club? That would sound familiar.

    • #33575
      Derek
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Derek are we talking about the mile or the 500? Which program has had more success in the 500…Hope. I will take a 4:36 500 training at hope than a 5:35 training at albion. You can defend whoever you want.

      Careful Stevo, I was very clear that I was only talking about training, using the mile as an example of how Albion’s training might not be as terrible as you previously implied. I even admitted that using my logic, Hope would be the better school for the 500. So I’m not sure of what your point could possibly be in the post. I’m only suggesting that there is no good reason of which I am aware to argue that Albion’s training is a problem for Krone’s success. So, that said, you can defend whomever you want, too.

    • #33576
      swim5599
      Member

      I don’t know either guy, but I would say going out in 1:48 high and ending up going 4:36.7, is probably an indication that Heyboer splits his 500’s and little better than Krone who was 1:45.0 and then 4:35. That being said I would think if Heyboer hung right with him for 300 yards the last 200 would be a dogfight.

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