GOAT

Forums General General GOAT

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 45 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #12948

      I was looking back on some times for the MIAC top swimmers of all time, and I was wondering who the best D3 swimmer ever was? I’m sure this has been discussed before.

      I guess things I’d factor into the ranking is how long they held the D3 record in an event, how many events they were good at, how their time would stand up today, etc.

      I guess I’d rank my top 5 as:
      1. James Born Kenyon – Holds the oldest record on the board in the 100 Free, held 50 record for 13 years
      2. Aaron Cole Denison – holds 2 records still from 1999, and is second on the list in 2 other events
      3. Dennis Mulvihill Kenyon – Still holds the 200 Free record from 1988
      4. Pedro Montiero Kenyon – still holds the fly record from 1999
      5. Bob Hauck St. Olaf – 400 IM record holder for 14 years, 7 individual titles

      I only factored in Hauck’s titles since I was lazy, and being a former MIAC guy, I knew where to find them. I’d assume Cole has more than that, and probably Born and Mulvhill do to. Not sure on Montiero.

    • #42801
      Low Tide
      Member

      Born is king, and until D3 swimming sees another top 8 swimmer in the *world* it will stay that way for some time.

      Ranking them after that is a tough task, however.

      When I rank, I give more weight to someone with incredible speed in one event over someone who was really fast in numerous events — hence, Monteiro and Simon are ahead of MCB and Miller.
      Here is my top 8:

      1) James Born — No contest
      2) Dennis Mulvihill — Factor in time period, and I think he tops the others pretty easily
      3) Aaron Cole — Boss speed, but in more events
      4) Josh Boss — Two events would score at D1s
      5) Pedro Monteiro — More dominant than Boss, but only in *one* event
      6) Gary Simon — Like Pedro, only at that uber elite level in one event
      7) Marc Courtney-Brooks — Up for the title of “most versatile D3 swimmer”
      7) Travis Miller — I can’t decide who was better… Miller or MCB. Will probably go with Miller b/c he was from an older era, but will go with the tie for now.

    • #42802
      NCACDork
      Member

      No credit given to MCB’s 42 split in the 400 FR? That would have been good enough for (I believe) all but one of the relays at D1s that year.

      I would definitely put him higher than 7th.

      And speaking of the Mitchell report, do you think steroids are (or ever were) a problem in D3 swimming? Perhaps that’s too controversial a topic, or perhaps it’s just controversial enough…

    • #42803

      @NCACDork wrote:

      … do you think steroids are (or ever were) a problem in D3 swimming? Perhaps that’s too controversial a topic, or perhaps it’s just controversial enough…

      I would like the think that Steroid use in d3 swimming is quite low. When I swam, there was no pressure to use ‘roids to succeed or anything like that. The cream-of-the-crop athletes are fast because of talent and hard work, not performance enhancing drugs. Besides, doesn’t the NCAA drug test all NCAA event champions?

    • #42804
      007
      Member

      @Low Tide wrote:

      Born is king, and until D3 swimming sees another top 8 swimmer in the *world* it will stay that way for some time.

      Ranking them after that is a tough task, however.

      When I rank, I give more weight to someone with incredible speed in one event over someone who was really fast in numerous events — hence, Monteiro and Simon are ahead of MCB and Miller.
      Here is my top 8:

      1) James Born — No contest
      2) Dennis Mulvihill — Factor in time period, and I think he tops the others pretty easily
      3) Aaron Cole — Boss speed, but in more events
      4) Josh Boss — Two events would score at D1s
      5) Pedro Monteiro — More dominant than Boss, but only in *one* event
      6) Gary Simon — Like Pedro, only at that uber elite level in one event
      7) Marc Courtney-Brooks — Up for the title of “most versatile D3 swimmer”
      7) Travis Miller — I can’t decide who was better… Miller or MCB. Will probably go with Miller b/c he was from an older era, but will go with the tie for now.

      We see this topic all the time yet I never hear Elliot Rushton from Kenyon named. Let’s be honest, he wasn’t on relays other than the 800 I think but he is the only current holder of 3 NCAA D3 records (500,1650 and I believe he has the 1000 as well, although not normally recognized it is a main event during the year) and I think that says something and is enough to put him on the list ahead of people like Simon and Montiero. MCB has got to be higher on this list also. Look at how many different events he won or at least got top 3 at NCAAs. He’s not up for the title of most versatile, there’s no question that he was the mos versatile swimmer in D3 history.

      1. Born, there’s no counter-argument that anyone can make here.
      2. Cole, top 3 in 4 events and 2 NCAA records
      3. MCB, top 3 in 4 events and 1 NCAA record (is his recognized or is Mulvihill’s?)
      4. Mulvihill, 20 year old NCAA record but only top 3 in 2 events so I have to put Cole and MCB ahead.
      5. Boss, 2 NCAA records and these will be there for a while
      6. Rushton, 3 NCAA records
      7. Simon, only 1 great event 1 NCAA record

      I don’t even know why Travis Miller is being considered. Maybe I’m missing something but he’s not top 3 in any event and only top 10 in 2. No records. I guess knowing relay splits would be helpful, especially with Cole MCB and Boss to really understand their worth.

    • #42805
      Low Tide
      Member

      No credit given to MCB’s 42 split in the 400 FR? That would have been good enough for (I believe) all but one of the relays at D1s that year.

      All the guys before him would score points individually at D1 nats. I am not going to put MCB ahead of them because of one relay swim.

    • #42806

      Good site with all the past champions…

      http://www.ncaasports.com/swimming/womens/story/6261551

    • #42807
      Low Tide
      Member

      I can see your point regarding MCB and Rushton, if we were to talk about this only in the context of D3 swimming. However, I am ranking the best D3 swimmers period — and comparing that to the rest of the world in swimming. Distance, at the D3 level is pretty consistently the weakest events at D3. Sure, Rushton is one of the best swimmers at D3 nationals, ever. But I do not think he is comparable, in the context of the rest of the swimming world, to the swimmers I have ranked before him.

      We see this topic all the time yet I never here Elliot Rushton from Kenyon named. Let’s be honest, he wasn’t on relays other than the 800 I think but he is the only current holder of 3 NCAA D3 records (500,1650 and I believe he has the 1000 as well, although not normally recognized it is a main event during the year) and I think that says something and is enough to put him on the list ahead of people like Simon and Montiero.

      If all you are ranking on is their performance in the D3 world, Rushton would be right up there. However, Simon and Monteiro would be close to finaling at D1 nats at the time they were swimming. Rushton would not break into the consolation heat.

      MCB was barely breaking Mulvihill’s times 15 years later — there is no conceivable way you can rank him higher.
      Older guys on this site are convinced Mulvihill could have won every event but the breastrokes at nationals his senior year. Apparently he had the fastest seeds in all those events walking into nationals.

      I don’t even know why Travis Miller is being considered. Maybe I’m missing something but he’s not top 3 in any event and only top 10 in 2. No records. I guess knowing relay splits would be helpful, especially with Cole MCB and Boss to really understand their worth.

      In his career, he won the 200 back (4 times, set the record), 100 back (twice, set the record), 200 IM (twice, set the record) and 100 fly at Nationals. He split 1:36.9 in his leg of the 800 FR and swam a 4:33 unshaved in season. I believe he was just as versatile as MCB — and would have been the favorite in about 8 events his senior year of nationals.

      Not comparable to the levels of swims of Boss, Cole, Monteiro and Simon — but comparable to the all-around beast of MCB.

      I might slip Rushton and Hauck in to round out my top 10.

    • #42808
      Low Tide
      Member

      Just to give you an idea of how fast Simon and Monteiro really were (two guys you really discounted, or ignored, in your rankings)… here is a link to the results of the 1998 D1 NCAAs:
      http://www.ncaasports.com/swimming/mens/story/arc_story/17778

      That year, Monteiro would have placed 8th in the 200 fly and Simon would have placed *4th* in the 200 IM. MCB and Rushton have never come close to those kind of swims.

    • #42809
      99 Red
      Member

      Simon is a great guy, and went through some hard times in his swimming career, and there is no question that he was FAST. However, he only did 2 years at the DIII level, didn’t he? You have mentioned Miller’s and MCB’s career accomplishments, should Simon be discounted because he was only a 14 time All American, at most? Not that 14 is a bad number, but there are probably more than 100 guys in DIII history with more All Americans. Just one stat, I know, but Simon’s short career deserves mentioning in this conversation.

    • #42810
      007
      Member

      I see your point. I assumed the greatest d3 swimmer of all time meant how he effected d3 swimming. But, your list makes a lot of sense if you look at them compared to all swimmers (and Simon being right with Nate Dusing is impressive). However, I must still disagree with the point made about Mulvihill over MCB. Even if Mulivhill was the fastest in every event, he is still only ranked in the 200 (1st) and the 500 (3rd). No other events. So the other 9 events that he may have been ranked 1st in don’t really matter. MCB was ranked top in at least 4 events, not just in his years, but in history of d3. I know Mulvihill was back in the 80s and maybe that’s why his times don’t rank other than his 2 events (which is a remarkable feat I believe…I especially enjoyed looking at the link above and going from 2003 up to find Borns and Mulvihills times all the way at the top) but no one has ever been able to weight older performances compared to newer performances in any sport. That’s why we just look at statistics. It’s like comparing Spitz vs. Phelps. Spitz’s accomplishments are probably more impressive but Phelps will be looked at as the better swimmer because his name is on the record board 5 or 6 times? And also I was unaware of how dominant Miller was, but again if you’re ranking based on current records and top 10 lists then he wouldn’t make it. If you’re ranking on awards and how long they held records then no question, he would.

    • #42811

      I know there is a separate thread for past results, but does anyone have D-I results prior to the late 90s? I found a site with past champions and their times…

      http://www.ncaa.org/library/records/swimming/2006/2006_d1_m_swimming_champ_record.pdf

      Hard to compare D-I champions to D-III champions… especially in distance events. But it would be cool to see how some guys in the 80s or early 90s would have placed. Like would Hauck have been top 8 in either his 400 IM or 200 back (do any Oles out there know this)? I read in his bio he was ranked top 25 in the world in the 200M back after training for the Olympic trials. Does that mean much? I honestly don’t know. How many guys on the list would rank in the top 25 in the world in their top event(s)? All of them? Some of them?

      Also, 007 mentioned Elliot Rushton. Is he even the best Rushton? Looking at the past champs, it looked like Tom Rushton was much more dominant.

    • #42812
      DonCheadle
      Member

      As far as I know, only 1 D3 swimmer (male) ever finaled at Olympic Trials and that was Rob Peele in the 50 Free, a good while after he finished swimming at Hope College.

      Also, it clearly states that this is a swimmers only poll, but if it included divers Jeff Gorton from Kzoo also finished top 8 at Olympic trials and would merit discussion in this list.

      Mulvhill over MC-B isn’t really a question if you factor in time period. I am quite sure that Mulvihill woudl have scored in multiple events at D1’s.

      Next: Rushton has 2 records not 3. The 1000 is not a real race any more than the 100 IM or 50 fly. And any record would be completely unofficial.

      Finally, I don’t know when it stopped, but D3 guys used to be able to swim at D1’s. I wonder how many scored…

    • #42813
      saxon
      Member

      I put Howard Seidman ahead of Boss. He was much more dominant in the breaststroke, especially for the time (1981-84). His records stood for 12 and 15 years respectively.

    • #42814
      Colbybr
      Member

      I’m not usually one to bring the women into the argument, but for the purposes of this topic, how about Lindsey Payne? What would her senior year 100 breaststroke have placed at Div 1 nationals that year? We could also reserve judgment to see how she does at trials this summer. She has been steadily improving LC and went 1:09 this summer. If she goes 1:08 she could be in the top 8.

    • #42815
      polarbear
      Member

      payne’s 1:00 breaststroke would have placed 3d (I believe) at DI’s that year — pretty tough to beat that. She also split 50. low and went 2:03 IM, which I believe is a D1 B Cut

    • #42816
      NCACDork
      Member

      https://d3swimming.com/news/news.php?newsid=49

      If you’re going to compare people to “the rest” sometimes it is good to look a bit further. Anyone who outraces Chris Thompson is decent.

    • #42817
      Colbybr
      Member

      @NCACDork wrote:

      https://d3swimming.com/news/news.php?newsid=49

      If you’re going to compare people to “the rest” sometimes it is good to look a bit further. Anyone who outraces Chris Thompson is decent.

      Is Elliot still swimming? What is his status in regards to open water as an olympic event in 9 months?

    • #42818
      CaseBrst10
      Member

      that was an article form 2005…so its anyone’s guess if he’s still in it for 08. Anyone really know how open water qualifiers work?

    • #42819
      Vic
      Member

      @CaseBrst10 wrote:

      that was an article form 2005…so its anyone’s guess if he’s still in it for 08. Anyone really know how open water qualifiers work?

      The 2008 open water world championships in Seville is the selection meet for the Olympic Games, so he would’ve had to qualify for the world championships to have a shot at the Olympics. According to these results, he didn’t make the world championship team. I have no idea if he’s still training or if he swam in this race.

    • #42820
      fr0gman
      Member

      Isn’t he Canadian?

    • #42821
      NCACDork
      Member

      My point is that he was underrated on the list of top d3 swimmers… granted there is no open water event at d3s, but that still is some elite company he is keeping.

      From what I understand he is no longer swimming to compete, but I could be wrong.

    • #42822
      DonCheadle
      Member

      yeah that was a pretty impressive feat by Rushton (the open water swimming). I ahve no problem putting him in the top 5 or so. I would go with:

      Borne
      Mulvihill
      Cole
      Simon
      Rushton

      Hauck: I haven’t researched to find out how fast his swims were on a relative basis.

      When Simon swam at Nats in 1998, he would have been atleast a 55 low in the 100 breast. He elected not swim it because he wanted the competition of the 100 fly (there were 5 guys who had been a 48 swimming in finals that night, defintely the best D3 heat ever in that race). He already had the national record at this point, having gone a 55 mid the year before. So he was alot more than a 1 trick pony as previously suggeted, and in fact showed a lot of guts by tring to win that race.

    • #42823

      I think we’ve got an interesting idea here, but what some may be doing is biasing their picks for how many swimmers’ times are ranked NOW, not when the swimmer was making an impact at the time. Obviously, Mark Spitz, Tracy Caulkins, Mary T Meagher and John Naber can be considered among the greatest swimmers of all time, due to what they did in the 70’s and 80’s. They don’t have many top-ten times these days, but they are still great.

      That said, there are swimmers whose results and impact transcend the years: Born, Mulvihill, Payne, Boss. There are also swimmers who were incredible in their day and time, but technology or technique have allowed lots of advances (suits, new breastroke head position rules, new backstroke flipturns, butterfly and back 15m rule, nutrition, pools, etc).

      Great swimmers in their day whose times have been bettered: Miller, Julie Hogan (Emory, 1985), Rachael LeClair (Emory, 88-90), Seidman, Hauck.

    • #42824

      Someone who hasn’t been mentioned but should be in the discussion is Matt Johnson. He won the 100 Fly 4 consecutive years. I think only 1 other person has won the same event all 4 years if my memory serves me correct. That definitely gets him in the top 10.

    • #42825

      @JHUBreaststroke06 wrote:

      I think only 1 other person has won the same event all 4 years if my memory serves me correct.

      Who is the other person?

    • #42826
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Boss 200 breast. I would think there are others, but that is just a hunch

    • #42827
      Low Tide
      Member

      There are others — Hauck did it in the 400 IM and Miller did it in the 200 back. I think there is at least one other.

      I had written two lenghty replies to this topc over the past month and both failed to post — so I am not up to giving my revised ratings yet (as I am sure many of you are holding your breath). Matt Johnson would make it into the top 15 or so from the top of my head. Great swimmer; great guy; and I loved competing with him.

    • #42828
      ajp
      Member

      Tom Rushton in the 500 Free. There’s around 10 guys that have won a single event all four years.

    • #42829

      I posted this link before, but it lists the champions in each event up until 2003.

      http://www.ncaasports.com/swimming/womens/story/6261551

      Hauck actually did it in the 200 back, not the 400 IM.

    • #42830
      Deep Water
      Member

      What if you go way back…prior to D3 but for schools that are now D3. This guy from Gustavus set the unofficial world record in 100 yd breast in the 30’s. http://gustavus.edu/athletics/fame.cfm?action=detail&year=1978#49

    • #42831
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Obviously this is wrong, there were no WR in yards. Plus I doubt anyone was going 1:02.9 in 1937. The WR was 1:11.4 in Meters in 1961.

    • #42832

      There actually WERE SCY world records up to a point. Not sure when FINA discarded all yards records, but they were out there. Adolph Kiefer set a WR as a high school senior at Illinois State Championships in 1935 or 1936 (and won the Olympic 100m back). I think it took over 16 years for that record to fall.

      I don’t know where to check it, but there was a point at which yards records were discarded (1950’s?). Besides the US, I think England, Australia and Canada had races in yards, up to a point.

    • #42833
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I think that’s why it says “unofficial”. It looks to me as if the events were swum in a 20 yard pool, considering that the 40 yard free is listed. Given the extra wall for a 100 breast, 1:02 doesn’t seem outlandish to me.

    • #42834
      Monkey Boy
      Member

      How did Gustavus get one of the Mad Magazine artists to do their Hall of Fame portraits?

    • #42835
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @PioneerSwimming wrote:

      There actually WERE SCY world records up to a point.

      This is interesting news to me. Where/ how can this be varified?

    • #42836
      JHU84
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Obviously this is wrong, there were no WR in yards. Plus I doubt anyone was going 1:02.9 in 1937. The WR was 1:11.4 in Meters in 1961.

      I think back in that time there was no butterfly which grew from the breast event and butterfly stroke was allowed as part of the breast. granted I am old but I cannot say that I witnessed this first hand

    • #42837

      Butterfly wasn’t separated from Breaststroke by FINA until 1952. So a 1:02 in the 100 yd breaststroke in the 1930’s would be possible if he was swimming fly arms with a breast kick or breast arms with a dolphin kick.

    • #42838
      CaseBrst10
      Member

      Weren’t even some of the Olympics held in 20 yrd pools, so you see times for things like “The 220 yard free, the 440 yard free etc.”?
      I’m not sure when this started/stopped but I know it happened in the early 1900’s

    • #42839
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @CaseBrst10 wrote:

      Weren’t even some of the Olympics held in 20 yrd pools, so you see times for things like “The 220 yard free, the 440 yard free etc.”?
      I’m not sure when this started/stopped but I know it happened in the early 1900’s

      I’m pretty sure the 220 and 440 lasted into the the 40’s or 50’s. In 25 yard pools they would hang a line across the pool and the first one to pass under the line would win – they didn’t race to the wall. Hard to imagine.

    • #42840
      CaseBrst10
      Member

      thats ridiculous, all with hand times, I can’t imagine calling close races like that

    • #42841
      Monkey Boy
      Member

      thats ridiculous, all with hand times, I can’t imagine calling close races like that

      What do you think they did/do with track & field? Runners do not sprint and then crash into a brick wall for timing purposes (though that would be funny to see).

    • #42842
      iamdonovan
      Member

      You’re right, they just crash into girls who wander onto the track.

    • #42843

      According to Wikipedia, and I’m using that as I am too lazy to look it up in one of my swimming technique books, the only Olympics to be held in yards was the 1904 Games probably since it was held in St. Louis. The first four Olympics had swimming held in open water (1896, 1900, 1904 and 1906). 1908 was the first with a pool, and 1924 was the first with marked lane lines. Again this is according to Wikipedia so its accuracy may be questionable.

    • #42844

      Also another note, according to the College Conference of Illinois and Wisconsin website, during the 1950’s and early 1960’s the CCIW championship had events like the 60 yard free, 220 yard free, 440 yard free, although some years it appears as though they didn’t have it and instead swam standard SCY events. I am assuming the reason for this, and probably was the case in many other conferences is that some pools were 20 yards, some were 25, so the events changed based upon wherever the championship meet was.

    • #42845
      swim5599
      Member

      Mitch you are pretty accurate. I was looking back at a lot of old North central results, and a lot of the swims were based on 20 yard pools.

Viewing 45 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.