Conference Relays 2007

Forums Conferences Michigan Intercollegiate Athletic Association Conference Relays 2007

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    • #11845
      Rooster
      Member

      This thread had a fair bit of discussion last year so I thought I would bring it back up in the slowness of the summer here in hopes of getting something going. It was about this time last year this thread started so I figured, why not? And I apologize for the length of this post in advance. Here we go:

      200 Free Relay (in order of finish from last year):
      Hope: Graduates (presumably) the top two sprinters from a relay that went 1:22.4. Wow. CVB and Holton have both been open 21.4’s. Vogelzang has been 21.5. We hear whispers of a sprint transfer to Hope (which wouldn’t come as a surprise). We also see on mlive that Matt Rose (21.1 on a relay at state) is heading there as well. Not to mention guys like Glas and Osterbur lying in the weeds. I don’t see this one getting away from Hope, not next year at least. Not to mention they haven’t lost this relay since 1989.

      Olivet: Shocked Calvin and the MIAA last year. Powers got back down to where he was in high school and Fetters blew up. There is speculation of Olivet’s top recruit next year being a sprinter. This relay was also the runnerup in the league without a senior on it.

      Calvin: Ress, JBG and Tuuk all return. Bagnall graduates and insert Kurt
      VanAllsburg (that is a safe assumption, right?). The relay is already faster and Bagnall is a talented swimmer. Calvin has to like where they’re sitting right now.

      Kalamazoo: A distant fourth last year with a young squad. We have heard that the 47.3 from Pioneer is heading to K as well as the sprinter up the road so this relay will likely have a very different look to it. Not to mention the possibility of their Sr Nat qualifier in the breaststroke events being able to dabble in something else. So it appears that the potential is certainly in place for K’s freshman 150 relay to be faster than their best returning 150 relay. Take their quickest returner (21.5 on the relay) and you’ve got a serious potential.

      Albion: Gunderson is legit but on a team that lacks speed, that is unfortunate. He’s also one hell of a pitcher. Havens better be careful that he doesn’t decide to just play baseball. Albion has two of the most talented swimmers in the league but Bacon needs to be used elsewhere and Krone has zero speed. They would need serious speed from a couple rookies to improve.

      Alma: can’t catch Albion.

      Prediction:
      Hope – can you really go against them in this relay?
      Calvin – improves relay and JBG hits his wall
      Olivet – with the newcomer can’t catch Calvin
      KZoo – in the hunt for 2nd but 3 seconds is a lot to overcome in a year
      Albion
      Alma

      400 Medley:
      Hope – Blohm is gone (we think). Cheadle has said he’s 99% sure Heyboer is
      going to Hope. I’ll run with it and say their relay is intact from last year if that is the case. Vogelzang showed he can certainly fill the void that Hope needed but a 1:00 isn’t the answer on the second leg of this event if Hope wants to win next year. For as much talking that has taken place I still can’t say with too much certainty that Hope got the breaststroker they’ve been seeking. If not, Vogelzang goes at it again. Waterstone, Bacon and Koji were all within .02 of each other last year and CVB returns looking to build on his impressive 46.0 from this race last Feb.

      Olivet – The entire relay is back. Again. If Olivet did get a freestyler you can move Powers to the backstroke (their best backstroker) and Fetters to the fly leg (the leagues best flyer) and then improve upon 3 legs of the medley. It could be rather frightening for others to think about. Improving the three legs of the medley surrounding Meisner.

      Albion – Dancho and Fodell graduate. Bacon returns but isn’t much better than anyone elses flyer (or wasn’t last year at least). Gunderson on the end is solid but more of a 50 guy. Big shoes to fill on the breaststroke and the leagues top breast split is what kept them in this race last year.

      KZoo – graduate Waller. Return Mr. Doitall Bobby Dekker. Throw this breaststroker we keep hearing about in there for a Bossish 54 split and have Hennigar camping on the end and we’ve got an immediate contender. They may lose a little bit of ground on the fly leg but they may also have a newcomer we don’t know about.

      Calvin – didn’t put this relay together so much last year. We’ll see what
      they do with it next year. Comradconrad may have to go breaststroker if they did not get a froshie to take Bagnall’s place. If they brought in a
      backstroker their relay is very solid. Freshman Toll (right AJP?) on the fly leg and take your pick on the end, could be interesting. Makes you wonder if John can put a backstroke together like Pete did.

      Alma – I heard they got a decent backstroker. No, seriously.

      Predicted order of finish:
      KZoo – going on the rumors, this could happen and with a young team
      Hope – Defending champ with basically their whole relay returning
      Olivet – could have very easily been 1st or 2nd
      Calvin – unsure where their first two legs will be
      Alma

      200 Medley
      Olivet – same as 4 medley except only more of an improvement

      Hope – Vroegindewey graduates but Hope will have someone capable on the end. CVB swam the fly leg at Nats and actually had Hope’s fastest split of the year. Interesting.

      Albion: Same as 4 medley except the loss of Fodell even greater.

      KZoo: I like their freestyler more in the 100 than the 50 (47.3 vs 21.9).
      Not sure about fly speed and Dekker is not a sprinter either. Still, a very solid relay.

      Calvin: Boumgarden has great 50 fly speed. Quite a bit quicker than anyone else in the league. Now to think that Toll could be faster should make the rest of the league uneasy. Not sure how this relay will take shape yet but it could be quick.

      Alma:

      Predicted order of finish:
      Hope
      Olivet
      KZoo
      Calvin
      Albion
      Alma

      800 Free:
      Hope: Now somebody said they went 6:52 in this relay at NCAAs. I probably
      just read that wrong. Their 1:39 graduates as does JVro. Gardner was 1:45.0 and Vogelzang put a nice split together, 1:44 something. Add Heyboer to the equation and it’s still a very tough relay with CVB.

      Calvin: Bagnall graduates and Toll steps in. He’s already been faster. On paper in the preseason this is one mean relay. Ress, JBG, Peregrine and Toll, not to mention anyone we don’t know about and potentially Comrad or KVA.

      Albion: Krone and Bacon again. Gunderson will have to be on here this year where Dancho was but noone to fill the Fodell void. Still a very strong relay despite being unsure who the 4th will be.

      Olivet: This may have been the one relay that got away from Olivet last year.
      They appeared to step it up very well in their other relays but didn’t have it with this one for some reason. If you thought the potential was there last year, wait til this year. They add a holland christian product (that somehow got away from Calvin and Hope) Nate Busscher, a 1:46 and that kid that K and OC were fighting over that’s around a 1:44. Not to mention this sprinter they’re getting. Could be a new look 8 free. Lots of options in the OC.

      K: Bringing in a distance guy and Dekker to build around. Beyond that, I am not exactly sure.

      Alma:

      Projected order of finish:
      Calvin
      Hope
      Olivet
      KZoo
      Albion
      Alma

      400 Free
      Hope: The MIAA recordholder in the 100 free is gone. But you return CVB and Vogelzang. Now depending on who their other two are this could be a very interesting race. Holton returns, Rose was 46.9 on a relay at state, Glas returns, Heyboer a possibility or any other newcomer.

      Calvin: Top three splits return and you have either VanAllsburg or Toll to take over for Bagnall. With some drops Calvin could be getting a relay back to the ‘ship.

      Olivet: Swam four freshman. Not sure why, probably was not their best relay so their time is deceiving because one could argue they should have faster. Newcomer 100 guy and their rookie 200 specialists make for some more decisions Stubbs will have to make.

      Albion: Fodell and Dancho are gone. Krone steps in for one of the two and plays a much more vital role for the team on relays this year. Gunderson and Bacon are a nice 1-2 and Krone seems like he should be capable of grinding something out. What ever happened to Frenchi?

      Kalamazoo: Dekker seems to be the likely 4th with a trio of freshman here in the early going. Dmitruk, Hennigar and I’m still assuming this breaststroker can put something else together. This relay should be quite a bit faster than last years, despite graduating Waller.

      Alma

      Projected order of finish:
      Hope Calvin
      Olivet
      Kalamazoo
      Albion
      Alma

      Well there it is. It’s a couple weeks late this year as it’s June already but hopefully this will give us a conversational piece to go on for a short bit instead of reading about someone complaining about nothing to read. Next time make a worthwhile post, Radio, instead of something that helped make us all dumber. And like last year, I apologize for the length of this post.

    • #28940
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Hope wins all relays is my prediction.

    • #28941
      DonCheadle
      Member

      According to some folks at Wash U: Hope is getting a B cut breaststroker. Somewhere in the 58 high 59 low range. The guy is from the same area as “the Treat” and turned down Wash U (allegedly) to go to Hope. So Hope’s medlies will be really good. The only relay I can see them losing on paper is the 200 Free Relay (Calvin). But come on, that won’t happen.

      Kzoo will have a good 400 medly. Under 3:30. Because it is June they should be planning on taking that relay to Nats. Though I think their best shot at getting a relay to Nats is taking 4 individuals. Can you enter relays without a B cut relay?

    • #28942
      silentp
      Member

      @Lane2AllStar wrote:

      Hope wins all relays is my prediction.

      Are you ever going to say something intelligent? My guess is that you aren’t a Hope swimmer, but someone else disguising yourself as a Hope swimmer to make us all think Hope swimmers/alums have gone retarded… no true Hope swimmer would be quite as moronic, or at least i hope not.

      Back to the relays, i won’t go as much in depth because, well, that was just impressive, but here are my predictions:

      2FR:
      1. Hope (they don’t lose this ever)
      2. Calvin
      3. Zoo
      4. Comets

      4FR:
      1. Hope
      2. Zoo
      3. Calvin
      4. Comets

      800 FR:
      1. Hope
      2. Albion
      3. Calvin
      4. Olivet
      5. Zoo

      200 MR:
      1. Olviet
      2. Zoo
      3. Hope
      4. Calvin

      400 MR:
      1. Hope
      2. Zoo
      3. Olivet

    • #28943
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Whether I am from Hope or not doesn’t really matter. On paper from what I know I don’t see how Hope won’t win all relays. Silentp what’s your proof that Hope won’t win the 200 medley? And what are the splits and times you believe that Kzoo and Olivet will go to beat Hope. I can give you the splits to Hopes if you want and prove to why it will win. And you may think I don’t make intelligent comments but I don’t really care. You don’t know me and I don’t know you and I am straight forward with all my comments.

      I still say Hope wins all.

      My predictions: (These are all with Blohm returning which is very possible and pretty awesome for Hope)

      200 Fr
      Hope – All back but Vroe and Add a Rose on there to make it even faster with everyone else improving
      Kalamazoo – They get second if there new breast stroke recruit is really coming. Otherwise they get 4th again.
      Olivet and Calvin – Battle it out again for either 2nd and 3rd or 3rd or 4th
      Albion
      Alma

      400 Fr
      Hope – Studs
      Calvin – Far behind but better than Olivet
      Olivet – Will be closer to Calvin this year and will be pretty far ahead of Zoo
      Kalamazoo – Without Waller they will be rebuilding
      Albion
      Alma

      800 Fr
      Hope – Everyone back but Vroe, and Add a Heyboar on the relay to make it faster
      Calvin – Almost all back and with recruits they will be able to replace Bagnall and go even faster
      Olivet – All back so they will improve and won’t have to mess around with new people
      Albion – They have two solid guys back and with any recruits at all they will replace Fodell and Dancho who wasn’t a big help anyhow
      Kalamazoo – All back but Waller but Waller was only impressive swim on the relay so it’s going to be a weak relay next year
      Alma

      200 Medley
      Hope- From what I know it would be all new people with Blohm anchoring, could be really fast
      Olivet – All back so very strong but still not as good as Hopes potential
      Kalamazoo – With a new breaststroker they will be tough to beat for 3rd
      Calvin – All back and if they get a faster sprint backtroker they could be competing with Kzoo
      Albion – Lose their stud breaststroke split which was by far the best split and will have to rebuild from that
      Alma

      400 Medley
      Hope – Same as 200 medley all new put Blohm at anchor and could be nasty
      Olivet – All back and will be fast but won’t get first
      Kalamazoo – Take out Waller’s anchor and add a sick breaststroke split and it may get a few seconds faster but not enough to win
      Calvin – Put Konrad in breast and Boumgarden in fly and it will be faster than last year
      Albion – Nice fly split but WOW they have some work to do at the beginning
      Alma

      Oh and Cheadle he turned down University of Indianapolis not Wash U.
      So now you know that I do know what im talking about Silentp does that please you?

    • #28944
      silentp
      Member

      @Lane2AllStar wrote:

      Oh and Cheadle he turned down University of Indianapolis not Wash U.
      So now you know that I do know what im talking about Silentp does that please you?

      Yup, good post.

      Also, you should know who i am, everyone else on here does.

    • #28945
      el radio
      Member

      well well well rooster…i would like to make a correction on your 4 medley. Saying that Burt Klohm does return to swim his final year for Hope, that makes things real interesting.
      Dont get me wrong when i dont mention K to much in this post, because they are a potential threat to this 4 med. BUT…my focus is the race between Hope and Olivet.

      Hope w/ K Blohm:
      If the rumors are true about this breastroker coming in for, the only way for their relay is to go up. Why? Everyone else in that relay swam it last year + a possible 1-1.5 second drop because of Breast.

      Olivet:
      Same thing goes for these guys. they have everyone returning, which makes them a definite shoe-in for the fight for first.
      If the same line up is kept for the OC that will actually be a little more beneficial for Hope because now a possible breastroker will be able to make up a little difference time wise from the ass raping vogelqueer took against meisner last year. Henson and Koji battle it out once again, and i could predict both come in again neck and neck, but this time both of these swimmers will be in the 50. mids to lows. Finally finish it with CVB and Powers and it will be another battle until the end, which (being hope bias) Hope will take. Why? because Hope took it last year, and CVB is the better swimmer.

      If the same lineups were kept for both teams, but Hope has an actual breastroker, anything is possible. Powers could lose his mind and go nuts and take it all and i could be completely mistaken. but from what i saw last year, my best assumption is that it will be another close race between these two teams with another unbelievable finish. I will take Hope because I can

      NOW if someone wants to mingle in the K relay just to get there pespective in that would be great. I didnt feel liketalking about a team that has a bunch of possible freshman to stack their relay, and i have not much of an idea about where they stand with returners. Somebody….SilentP, Cheadle, or anyone who likes K

    • #28946
      silentp
      Member

      @el radio wrote:

      If the rumors are true about this breastroker coming in for,

      He’s a 59 who’s been under 1:00 once. Could mean he’s ready to drop much lower after having a bust our swim, could mean he’s a one hit wonder… who knows.

      K’s medley:

      No backstroker hurts K in a very bad way. If Blohm is back, which i do not think he will be, but very well could and the league would be glad to see it, Hope wins hands down.
      On to K, backstroke will again belong to Dekker, who does a great job considering it is his worst stroke. He was 55-low last year, which isn’t good, not bad for a 4th stroke, but not where we need to be. Look for him to be around 54-low next year in my opinion; although faster would be nice.

      Breastroke is hopefully going to be our saving grace. We have the fastest breastroker going into the meet as it stands, and that needs to be a place to make up ground. If Meisner goes his usual 57.0 and this Hope breastroker is around 59. or 1:00.0, it could be the spot we need to make up ground. We will be even with, or possibly slightly ahead of Olivet going into this leg, so that will help. We will be trailing Hope but should catch up within a 25, maybe 50. Since he is a sprinter, the 200 MR will be stronger or us, a lot strong. Saying we have the lead going into fly is not a stretch, not by any means. Hope’s backstroker should be around 52 -low, which is only about a 2 second lead. I say around 52 because he hasn’t dropped time the last 2-3 years, so it’s the conservative guess.

      With fly, it will likely go to the pioneer freshman, although that could be wrong. He was swimming much faster than his junior year leading up to state, without tapering, but fell ill with the flu and didn’t perform. I, however, don’t give credit for what he could have done though, so he comes in about the same as the other 2 K flyers. Assuming one of the 3 can split 52-mid (which is very likely, they just need to pick the right one), they will be caught some by both Olivet and Hope. I don’t see either team having someone drop below 51, so it will be a close race. Assuming they have a 2 second lead going into it, this brings them almost even.

      Coming home, K will again look to a freshman. He has been 47-low, but i don’t know how great his relay starts are since the difference between his flat time and relay split was not large. Since i heard Olivet got a top sprinter and we know Hope did, he is going to have to book it. This will not be easy to hold off, especially given what i have said, he’d only have about a 1 second advantage.

      3 way tie!! But who knows, that’s just my analysis.

    • #28947
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Reason why you are wrong is becuase Blohm won’t be swimming back if he is back for another year. Heyboar is a 52.1 backstroker. Then 58 flat with relay start breast, 50. high fly and 44 mid Blohm. That is Hopes best chance to my knowledge. Which again most likely cant be beat. Same order for 200 medley most likely.

    • #28948
      silentp
      Member

      @Lane2AllStar wrote:

      Reason why you are wrong is becuase Blohm won’t be swimming back if he is back for another year. Heyboar is a 52.1 backstroker. Then 58 flat with relay start breast, 50. high fly and 44 mid Blohm. That is Hopes best chance to my knowledge. Which again most likely cant be beat. Same order for 200 medley most likely.

      Just a few questions:
      Who has done the 58 flat with a relay start for breastroke?
      Who has done the 50-high for the fly?
      When did i say Blohm was swimming backstroke?

    • #28949
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      No backstroker hurts K in a very bad way. If Blohm is back, which i do not think he will be, but very well could and the league would be glad to see it, Hope wins hands down.

      Since you mentioned Blohm in the backstroke section I had guessed you put him there. And I dont know Heyboars past but if its him you speak of being a 52 low the past few years maybe he just needs a reason to improve. And I say 58 relay start for breaststroker becuase he was 59 mid this year flat start and you give .5 for a relay start. So hes already at a 58 high or 59 flat relay this year. With summer and a college season he could easily drop 1 second. And Waterstone has already been 51.1 why would it be weird to drop .2 from year to year? And Blohm has already been his 44 mid.

      It adds up to around a 3:25 which I just can’t see anyone else competing with. And thats with Heyboar not improving, Breast stroker improving 1 second, Waterstone improving .2 and blohm the same.

    • #28950
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Man we finally get some action here. I think that it is very likely that Hope goes a 3:25 without Blohm. A 58.0 from a guy who went a 59 in high school is not asking for that much.

      Dekker (back) and Waterstone (fly) will be much faster this year. I put Dekker at 53 high. Waterstone in the 50 mid range.

      It is the summer, not a time to be conservative. People were saying it was crazy to pick Denison to win in the 800 Free Relay. Then they go the 2nd (3rd?) fastest time ever. So who knows.

    • #28951
      Derek
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      People were saying it was crazy to pick Denison to win in the 800 Free Relay. Then they go the 2nd (3rd?) fastest time ever. So who knows.

      Second (that this website is aware of):

      https://d3swimming.com/ncaa/top10/index.php?sex=Men

    • #28952
      silentp
      Member

      I understand why people would not be conservative, but i will still stay conservative. Hope does have the potential to be around 3:25 even without Blohm, and if they do, no one else will touch them.

      The best relay race of the meet should actually be the 200 MR:
      Hope’s backstroker isn’t as strong at the 50 as he is as it goes longer (from what i understand) but will still give his team the lead. Olivet and Kzoo should be about even, probably about a second behind Hope (possibly less since Blohm barely gave them a second lead).
      Since the K breastroker’s best event, from what i hear, is the 50 breast, he should be able to take over at this point. Meisner is more of a distance guy, but should not have a problem pulling even with Hope.
      K should have at least a second lead at this point. Koji and Waterstone split about the same last year, with Groth splitting about half a second slower. Since i don’t know what the K freshman can do in a 50 fly, we’ll say this half a second stays about the same. This means K jumps in half a second ahead of Hope and Olivet, who are about even. At this point, i give advantage to Hope because of their great relay starts and relay swims. K’s froshie is best at the 100, so Olivet would have a chance to close.
      If all of this happens, it would probably go Hope, K, Olivet… although if Heyboar can’t get the 1 second lead, they could finish 3rd. Should be interesting and exciting!!

    • #28953
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Regarding Soriano and the 50 breast: Based on his LCM times, I put it at 50/50 that he splits a 24. I would say he is a lock to split a 24 if he gets the full .7 off the relay start, but that may not happen.

      SO I would agree with you that K would win the 200 medly. Dekker’s 50 back is really solid already. A 23 low from the flyer and a 20 mid from the freestyle, who knows, 1:33 (which no longer makes nats, but is a good time none the less)?

      Dekker 24.9
      Soriano 24.9
      1 of 3 guys 23.2 < — could be a lot faster
      Rookie 20.5
      1:33.5 <– that probably wins

    • #28954
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Cheadle that sounds like a really good relay. Problem is all this LCM conversion is BS. The kid is a a good meter swimmer. Maybe hes not that amazing in yards. Not saying hes bad. Im sure hes a 56 breast stroker but 24.9 is a little out there for a 56 guy. Im guessing somthing more like a 25.4 for a 56 mid or 56 low. Plus most coaches give .5 for relay not .7. Either way not only is that split a little steep, where are you getting the 20.5 from? Did Kzoo get themselves a 20.5 relay split? If so than my bad on the next comment but NO CHANCE! If Kzoo has a 20.9 relay split comming in he may go the same time or slower. Freestyle is the hardest thing to imrpove in and once you get to that stage in high school its hard to improve opon it. Althogh ill go with what you put and now do the same with improvements for Hope and we will see who wins.

      Heyboar – 23.9
      King – 26.3
      Nelis – 22.5
      Blohm – 19.8

      I kept Blohm almost exactly the same only like a .1 increase from last years 19.9.

      That adds up to a 132.5. Which means if you give same increases to Hope as you did to Kzoo Hope still wins. And by a whole second.

    • #28955
      silentp
      Member

      I agree that 20.5 is a bit out there, but so is 19.9. I don’t see him doing that again in a official race… not to bring up that whole ordeal again, but waves will make a difference, that cannot be argued (at least not intelligently).

      Here is how i see both relays splitting it out:

      Hope:
      Heyboar: 24.3 (same as Blohm last year)
      King: 26.7
      Waterstone: 23.0 (only because i don’t know who Nelis is other than a froshie)
      Transfer: 20.5

      Kzoo:
      Dekker: 25.0
      the fonz: 25.0
      flyer: 23.5 (conservative)
      fresh meat: 21.0

      Hope goes 1:34.5
      K goes 1:34.5

      Hope knows how to touch that wall first, like Kenyon to a lesser extent, so edge to them, but they did get out-touched last year.

    • #28956
      iamdonovan
      Member

      I have to say, I like the choice of “the fonz” as a nickname better than “soriano.” Maybe it’s that whole yankees thing. Either way, I know that I will be watching with great interest from the land of William Wallace, haggis, and bagpipes.

    • #28957
      maverick1
      Member

      lane2allstar, the weekend is barely over….give yourself a few days before you start hitting the bottle in the morning

      the 200 medley will be the best race of the relays again. without blohm i think hope will struggle a little more seeing as how the middle of the relay could leave them behind.

      lots of speculation on the froshies though, and sorry to do this again lane2, but along the lines of the k freestyler i’m going to say that heyboer will be slower in the 50 back now that he’ll focus mainly on the 200Im

      hope:
      heyboer-24.4
      king -26.5
      waterstone, nelis (doesn’t matter, either could do this)-22.9
      some token 50 guy-20.8

      which is not a 1:32.5 but a 1:34.6

      add in the blohm factor and you get a 1:34.1 or so

    • #28958
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Oh boy, i’m back. See, I enjoy you michigan boys. I really can’t wait to meet some of you next year. Ive always been known for a big mouth in Illinois so i’ll try to calm down after this. But damn Mav, if you knew Heyboar’s times you would know that IM isnt his best event. The backstroke is. The 200 back, at that. Well yes he is a better distance backstroker, but that means he is still going to get a lot of backstroke training since the 2 back is his best chance to score big at nats. So Starts and turns are still going to be trained bigtime. Just wanted to make sure you guys up there in the Glove were doing your homework.

      I should probably stop posting for a while, but keep posting new stuff I enjoy reading them. And for someone like me who has no job and is just swimming all summer and is about to go to a double i really enjoy all this talk about next year. For me its my motivation to swim hard this summer to make sure Hope does win that Medley.
      😉

    • #28959
      N Dynamite
      Member

      First, Cheadle, I think 1:33 has a shot at the big dance. It only took a 1:34.02 to get in last year. However, dropping from 1:36.98 to 1:33 mid is a huge drop. I don’t know that I see that happening

      Second, Lane2, why is free any harder to drop in than anything else? Waller was a 21.38 this year and a 21.65 as a junior – that’s a pretty decent drop for a senior. That doesn’t mean that K has a 20.5 coming in, but I don’t think your statement is true.

      As for the champion, if the rumors are true and Hope’s freshmen are as good as billed, Hope wins. That’s still a stretch. Blohm coming back would make the difference because then you just have to replace one guy. Even though Hope got touched out at MIAA they went faster at NCAA’s.

      Knowing nothing about incoming freshmen – I see Olivet, Hope, Kzoo. With the potential that everyone is talking about I see Hope, Olivet, Kzoo. Sorry Hornets.

    • #28960
      silentp
      Member

      @Lane2AllStar wrote:

      Oh boy, i’m back. See, I enjoy you michigan boys. I really can’t wait to meet some of you next year. Ive always been known for a big mouth in Illinois so i’ll try to calm down after this. But damn Mav, if you knew Heyboar’s times you would know that IM isnt his best event. The backstroke is. The 200 back, at that. Well yes he is a better distance backstroker, but that means he is still going to get a lot of backstroke training since the 2 back is his best chance to score big at nats. So Starts and turns are still going to be trained bigtime. Just wanted to make sure you guys up there in the Glove were doing your homework.

      I should probably stop posting for a while, but keep posting new stuff I enjoy reading them. And for someone like me who has no job and is just swimming all summer and is about to go to a double i really enjoy all this talk about next year. For me its my motivation to swim hard this summer to make sure Hope does win that Medley.
      😉

      You’re right, for someone who’s dipped under 1:00 once in your life, you do have a big mouth. If you can back it up, then it’s all good, but that’s IF. Good Luck.

    • #28961
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Lane 2:
      I am not from Michigan. I live and work in Texas. I know you didn’t mean to offend but we are pretty proud down here.

      I was confusing the 200 free relay (1:23 mid) with the 200 medly (a 1:34 DID make it last year.) Sorry about the error.

      I agree with Lane 2’s assesment:

      Predicting a 1:33 from Kzoo is as rational as predicting a 1:32 from Hope. You see Blohm splitting a 19.8, I see Soriano splitting a 24.9, you see a 23.9 from Heyboer, I see a 24.9 from Dekker. Why not. Good luck holding up your end…

    • #28962
      el radio
      Member

      what part of texas you living at cheadle?

    • #28963
      el radio
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      I agree that 20.5 is a bit out there, but so is 19.9. I don’t see him doing that again in a official race…

      now why dont you see kurt going a 19.9 again? I dont quite understand you’re logic behind how you can back this up. I dont want to hear the lame ass excuse of how he jumped to go a 19.9 blah blah blah blah blah blah blah…nobody cares about that excuse anymore. Explain to me why you dont think kurt is not physically capable of going a 19.9

      if you cant come up with a good lie for why…then dont answer, because i dont want to hear the relay “should have been DQ’d”

    • #28964
      silentp
      Member

      @el radio wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      if you cant come up with a good lie for why…then dont answer, because i dont want to hear the relay “should have been DQ’d”

      No one said not physically capable. Yes, he could do it, i just don’t feel he will. He’s never done it IN COMPETITION and to my knowledge, never been close. He usually does lead off though, so that’s a big part of it. Time trials are proven to be faster, that’s why they don’t count for records, or in some cases, even qualifying times.

      I am not sure he’d anchor that if he were on the team anyway. He is a much better sprint backstroker and Heyboar is a much better 200 backstroker. Despite Lane2’s way of thinking, i don’t beleive training for a 200 back is going to neccessarily improve his 50, because those are 2 extremely different races.

    • #28965
      maverick1
      Member

      radio-blohm’s top flat start 50 is a 20.67, if we then give him the -.5 for a relay start that seems to be somewhat agreed on around here then you get a 20.17……that’s my reason for thinking he’s not going to go a 19.9 in an official race.

      there’s also the school of thought that the relay exchange can give you as much as -.7 from a flat start time which would bring him down to 19.97….but as we all know the faster the swimmer the less difference there is between a flat and a relay time (Bosquet didn’t split 18.0 at ncaas 2005) so to give blohm the -.7 wouldn’t make much sense.

      the kid could be capable of a legit 19.9…heck, just look at d1’s there’s 30 guys who break 20 in the individual 50 free each year, so it’s never impossible.

    • #28966
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Keith Nykamp, who was faster than Heyboer in the 200 back only split a 25 low 24 high. Not to say that Heyboer can’t be faster, just pointing out that a lot of 200 backstrokers don’t have a lot of speed.

      Heyboer went a 24.2 in high school but that was with a stand-up start. I would think he will be about the same next year.

      Is Adam DeJong going to UofM?

    • #28967
      silentp
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      Is Adam DeJong going to UofM?

      I heard he was, along with some other very talented swimmers.

    • #28968
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      there’s also the school of thought that the relay exchange can give you as much as -.7 from a flat start time which would bring him down to 19.97….but as we all know the faster the swimmer the less difference there is between a flat and a relay time (Bosquet didn’t split 18.0 at ncaas 2005) so to give blohm the -.7 wouldn’t make much sense.

      I have to argue this point – it depends on the situation. At nationals last year Courage took third in the 50 to Slavik and Triebe (20.46, 20.60, 20.63). Courage’s best ever 50 is 20.62. However, in the 200 Free Relay Courage caught Triebe from behind. Their splits were 20.07 and 19.68. Triebe dropped .43 on his relay start, Courage dropped .95. Some people are just relay studs more than individual events. Blohm may be the same way. If you give him Courage’s drop he goes 19.72. Clearly 19.9 isn’t completely out of the question, especially in a race as close as you’re calling.

      By the way, the average drop for these two was almost -.7 (-.69 to be exact)

    • #28969

      I want to reiterate to some of my teamates who read this message board that there is no garuntee that I will swim next year. I have a shoulder impingement that I am trying to rehab and I returned from Cameroon 25 pounds lighter than I was in season.

      Once I resolve those two issues I will start thinking about swimming again. I want to swim, at least in the fall, but only if my shoulder is 100 percent.

      Either way, it sounds like you guys will be fine. I have full confidance that Chas can replace me on any of those medley relays and the freestyle relays can put up the same times as last year (minus the notorious time trial relay).

    • #28970
      silentp
      Member

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      I want to reiterate to some of my teamates who read this message board that there is no garuntee that I will swim next year. I have a shoulder impingement that I am trying to rehab and I returned from Cameroon 25 pounds lighter than I was in season.

      Once I resolve those two issues I will start thinking about swimming again. I want to swim, at least in the fall, but only if my shoulder is 100 percent.

      Either way, it sounds like you guys will be fine. I have full confidance that Chas can replace me on any of those medley relays and the freestyle relays can put up the same times as last year (minus the notorious time trial relay).

      I saw the Cameroon pics on Facebooks, looks pretty cool. Best of luck with rehab.

      I would agree that the relays can all go the same times, the only one i would question is the 800 FR from NCAA’s, that was a great relay. The MIAA had been struggling until that one.

    • #28971
      Gargamel
      Member

      There are a few things that have come to mind while reading this thread. I’m glad there is some life to the forum by the way!

      First of all it’s Heyboer, not Heyboar.

      Second, he was 24.2 last year on the medley while training for the 2 IM and 500 this past year. Why would him training for the 2 back slow him down versus training for the 500 which he did last year?

      Last, Chas VanderBroek had Hope’s fastest 50 fly split last year. Why is no one considering him for that spot? I realize that he is 2nd on the teams depth chart of 50 flys right now but let’s be honest, how many times did the kid swim fly at all last year? There might be some serious potential there worth exploring.

      All for now, out.

    • #28972
      silentp
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      @maverick wrote:

      there’s also the school of thought that the relay exchange can give you as much as -.7 from a flat start time which would bring him down to 19.97….but as we all know the faster the swimmer the less difference there is between a flat and a relay time (Bosquet didn’t split 18.0 at ncaas 2005) so to give blohm the -.7 wouldn’t make much sense.

      I have to argue this point – it depends on the situation. At nationals last year Courage took third in the 50 to Slavik and Triebe (20.46, 20.60, 20.63). Courage’s best ever 50 is 20.62. However, in the 200 Free Relay Courage caught Triebe from behind. Their splits were 20.07 and 19.68. Triebe dropped .43 on his relay start, Courage dropped .95. Some people are just relay studs more than individual events. Blohm may be the same way. If you give him Courage’s drop he goes 19.72. Clearly 19.9 isn’t completely out of the question, especially in a race as close as you’re calling.

      By the way, the average drop for these two was almost -.7 (-.69 to be exact)

      I think a key point is being missed here: HEIGHT. The reason for big relay drops by certain swimmers often (but not always) comes down to height. Some swimmers who have dropped more than their .5 or even .7 for that matter i can think of off hand: Courage, Hagemeyer, Amundson.. i am sure there are many more, but you get the idea. These guys are all very tall.

      The Burnett example is a good one to compare Blohm to because their height is similar. When taking off from the relay block, with only the toes needing to be touching, height can be the difference of a couple tenth at least.

      Look at the team that destroyed relay records a couple years ago: Cal. They had 4 amazing sprinters, but they are also all VERY tall. Gimbutus alone had to be 6’7 or more, Cavic is not a small dude either.

      While height alone is obviously not the sole determent on relay exchanges, being tall is a definite advantage.

    • #28973
      Derek
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      While height alone is obviously not the sole determent on relay exchanges, being tall is a definite advantage.

      Hence the reason that I was never really a relay swimmer. The only reason. And don’t you dare tell me otherwise.

    • #28974
      TheAnswer
      Member

      I have to sell what SilentP is pushing right here. While I agree that height is an advantage the vast majority of the time; I do not believe it to be a bigger reason why some relay swims are more impressive than others. In theory the advantage you gain because you are taller is only in inches how much taller you are than the next person because you already have your open times. So if Courage is 6’6″ and Triebe is 6’2″ he would gain four inches of time off the block only which would equate to not much.

      Explain to me how someone like Jeff ‘Relay’ Heydlauff would be in the mix here? He had the 2nd fastest split at Nationals his senior year but failed to come back in the 50 Free itself. Some people (and as we’ve seen in the MIAA….teams) do a nice job of getting up for relays. Some people swim better (even short people) when they know they have 3 other people on the same team as them in that particular event. Other people generate so much more power from the opportunity to use their forward momentum and drive off of two feet (for those that use the track start), and others still yet have impeccable timing. For some it is simply confidence, others…fear. I would buy any of those reasons as to why some people have bigger drops from their open times to with relay pickups. Unfortunately, they are all more difficult to prove than something as tangible as height.

    • #28975
      silentp
      Member

      @TheAnswer wrote:

      I have to sell what SilentP is pushing right here. While I agree that height is an advantage the vast majority of the time; I do not believe it to be a bigger reason why some relay swims are more impressive than others. In theory the advantage you gain because you are taller is only in inches how much taller you are than the next person because you already have your open times. So if Courage is 6’6″ and Triebe is 6’2″ he would gain four inches of time off the block only which would equate to not much.

      Explain to me how someone like Jeff ‘Relay’ Heydlauff would be in the mix here? He had the 2nd fastest split at Nationals his senior year but failed to come back in the 50 Free itself. Some people (and as we’ve seen in the MIAA….teams) do a nice job of getting up for relays. Some people swim better (even short people) when they know they have 3 other people on the same team as them in that particular event. Other people generate so much more power from the opportunity to use their forward momentum and drive off of two feet (for those that use the track start), and others still yet have impeccable timing. For some it is simply confidence, others…fear. I would buy any of those reasons as to why some people have bigger drops from their open times to with relay pickups. Unfortunately, they are all more difficult to prove than something as tangible as height.

      I said one factor, and it is an important factor. Remind me who had the fastest split? Someone taller? Yes. Height is not the only factor, of course not, but if Heydlauff were taller, there is a good chance he would have been even faster, you can’t argue that. 4 inches in swimming could equate to about a tenth of a second, i’d guess, which is a pretty large difference.
      Timing and explosion are also big, no denying it, but it never hurts to be tall.

    • #28976
      DonCheadle
      Member

      Height? Are you kidding me. THe sole determinant for the amount of time you drop on a relay is go much quicker you get off the block versus your flat start. Most MIAA swimmers are about .8 (elite swimmers are in the .7 range so this is my guess for MIAA swimmers). That is where the relay time drop comes from. I do not believe that some teams get up better for relays. SOme teams (Hope) are simply better at executing relay starts. I would also add that the reputation that Hope has of having great relay pickups is more anecdotal than empirical.

      I guess you could argue that taller people are slower off the block and thus have more time that they can shave off with a relay start, but I would want to see evidence before making such a claim.

    • #28977
      Stevo
      Member

      Brian Amundson went 19. and 20.19 at the meet both times beating my 20.21. I had a horrible flat start….the momentum of a relay helped.

    • #28978
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      4 inches in swimming could equate to about a tenth of a second, i’d guess, which is a pretty large difference.
      Timing and explosion are also big, no denying it, but it never hurts to be tall.

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      I do not believe that some teams get up better for relays.

      Alright, a tenth. But Courage dropped over a half second more in the relay than Triebe. I do think some people get up more for relays – the thing is, I don’t think Triebe didn’t get up as much for the relay as much as Courage didn’t get up as much for the 50. Some people get up for everything. Others get up for relays more than individuals. I would guess some people swim better in individual events because they’re more relaxed – they don’t have to worry about anyone else but themselves and just bust it out. You can argue power off the block, height, or whatever else, but some people just swim relays better than others.

    • #28979
      The Treat
      Member

      @N Dynamite wrote:

      @silentp wrote:

      4 inches in swimming could equate to about a tenth of a second, i’d guess, which is a pretty large difference.
      Timing and explosion are also big, no denying it, but it never hurts to be tall.

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      I do not believe that some teams get up better for relays.

      Alright, a tenth. But Courage dropped over a half second more in the relay than Triebe. I do think some people get up more for relays – the thing is, I don’t think Triebe didn’t get up as much for the relay as much as Courage didn’t get up as much for the 50. Some people get up for everything. Others get up for relays more than individuals. I would guess some people swim better in individual events because they’re more relaxed – they don’t have to worry about anyone else but themselves and just bust it out. You can argue power off the block, height, or whatever else, but some people just swim relays better than others.

      its been a while since ive posted but just a tid-bit of information… my reaction time for the 200 FR was .43. it was just plain terrible. all my relay starts that meet were terrible. i dont know what happened. maybe the pads got in my head…

    • #28980
      silentp
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      its been a while since ive posted but just a tid-bit of information… my reaction time for the 200 FR was .43. it was just plain terrible. all my relay starts that meet were terrible. i dont know what happened. maybe the pads got in my head…

      I do believe Courage had experience from his conference meet dealing with the pads… perhaps that could happen.

    • #28981
      Insight
      Member

      Heydlauff had the fastest split of the 200 free relay. The other guy who beat him beat him the 200 Medley.

    • #28982
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @Insight wrote:

      Heydlauff had the fastest split of the 200 free relay. The other guy who beat him beat him the 200 Medley.

      which meet?

    • #28983
      DonCheadle
      Member

      This is probably the thread where Lane2 earned the reputation as a trash talker. Predicting a 58.0 from himself. As I said before though, who cares. There have been quite a few swimmers who have come on to this forum and glossed themselves (typically it is because they think it is anonymous, but everything gets uncovered eventually).

      I have put plenty of things in writing that don’t pan out (though I usually put money on it) BUT: Lane2, still think Hope’s going a 1:32.5 this year? Still think Fonzi won’t be able to split under 25.0?

    • #28984
      silentp
      Member

      Since he probably hasn’t been on to respond, i will make some predictions now that we at least know a little more about everyone. L2A was saying he was helping Hope win those relays when Ellis wasn’t yet on the team, now i think it will be very tough.

      200 MR
      Hope
      Heyboer 24.7
      King 26.5
      Nelis 22.3
      Rose 20.6
      Time: 1:34.1

      Kzoo
      Ellis 23.7
      Fonsy 24.7
      Dekker 22.5
      Greiner 21.0
      Time: 1:31.9

      Olivet
      Fetters 24.9
      Meisner 26.0
      Yury 22.5
      Powers 20.8
      Time: 1:34.2

      400 MR
      Hope
      Heyboer 52.0
      KW 59.7
      Nelis 50.8
      Rose 45.5
      Time: 3:28.0

      Kzoo
      Ellis 50.7
      Fonsy 55.5
      Dekker 51.0
      Hennigar 47.2
      Time: 3:24.4

      Olivet
      Fetters 53.9
      Meisnger 56.9
      Yury 51.0
      Powers 46.5
      Time: 3:28.3

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