College Swimming Div III Poll

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    • #12025
      neswim
      Member

      Well here we go again. The collegeswimming.com Div III poll is displayed as of 10-23-06 and on the women’s side Denison, who just finished THIRD in the NCAC relays is listed as first . I know that there is some rationale along the lines of “this is a dual meet not placement at nationals” poll but how can Denison be listed first when they lost EVERY relay to Kenyon but one (and that was a tie) AND finished THIRD in the meet. Did any who participated in the poll bother to review the respective rosters?

      On the men’s side who here on this forum thinks that Williams can beat either Denison or Kenyon in a dual meet?

    • #31333
      The Treat
      Member

      @neswim wrote:

      Well here we go again. The collegeswimming.com Div III poll is displayed as of 10-23-06 and on the women’s side Denison, who just finished THIRD in the NCAC relays is listed as first . I know that there is some rationale along the lines of “this is a dual meet not placement at nationals” poll but how can Denison be listed first when they lost EVERY relay to Kenyon but one (and that was a tie) AND finished THIRD in the meet. Did any who participated in the poll bother to review the respective rosters?

      On the men’s side who here on this forum thinks that Williams can beat either Denison or Kenyon in a dual meet?

      i feel like we’ll have no idea until williams starts swimming dual meets (what is that in december?). i dont think they can beat denison or kenyon in a dual meet. i would say that denison has more studs at the top, which is how you win dual meets. i think williams would be more suited to beat them at a conference meet that isnt as deep. then at nationals, id give the edge to denison. i havent seen williams roster, so i am only basing off last year and who they lost.

      how did they submit results if they havent swam? im confused. i dont like this poll b/c not everyone does it and we cant see what times they used to enter. i dont know why they dont make that information public.

    • #31334
      neswim
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      how did they submit results if they havent swam? im confused. i dont like this poll b/c not everyone does it and we cant see what times they used to enter. i dont know why they dont make that information public.

      You mean the poll should be based on results? Or even on the current roster? You want some kind of transparency? Better find another poll.

      Seriously I’m o.k. with a poll before the first meet but it should at least be based on this year’s roster. (Williams women include freshman but not the men).

      And I still don’t see how Denison women could be ranked higher than Emory or Kenyon based on either this year’s rosters or meet results.

    • #31335
      lirpa
      Member

      I’m pretty sure those polls are exactly the same as they have been since April. Those are last year’s post-season power point totals submitted by coaches. No reason to get wound up about these yet.

    • #31336
      swim5599
      Member

      Yeah these polls do not really reflect how any team will do. But I like the idea of having a poll, I just wish there was a better way to do it.

    • #31337
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Easy: Coaches’ poll. Top 25 coaches from previous nationals would be a good criteria. Nobody can vote for themselves.

      It’s not like football where you can’t see other teams results and don’t know who’s really good. Every coach checks tons of results. And it would sure as heck be simpler than that duel meet strength formula.

    • #31338
      Psimon3
      Member

      The Mid-Major, DII, and DIII dual meet rankings aren’t due until November 11th so those are the hold overs from last season.

    • #31339

      are these polls on nov 11th going to be based on coaches sending in lineups with power points or a commitee deciding them…becasue some coaches dont take the time to submit there lineup, which makes the poll ineffectice towards to bottom

    • #31340
      N Dynamite
      Member

      power points

    • #31341
      The Treat
      Member

      @neswim wrote:

      @The Treat wrote:

      how did they submit results if they havent swam? im confused. i dont like this poll b/c not everyone does it and we cant see what times they used to enter. i dont know why they dont make that information public.

      You mean the poll should be based on results? Or even on the current roster? You want some kind of transparency? Better find another poll.

      Seriously I’m o.k. with a poll before the first meet but it should at least be based on this year’s roster. (Williams women include freshman but not the men).

      And I still don’t see how Denison women could be ranked higher than Emory or Kenyon based on either this year’s rosters or meet results.

      do the denison women have good diving?

      i dont know why we cant see what everyone submitted. then we could know where they are getting their times from, how strong each team is in each event. i think this would lead to some better analysis.

    • #31342
      neswim
      Member

      @The Treat wrote:

      do the denison women have good diving?

      They didn’t have any divers entered in the NCAC meet which is probably why they finished third this year versus last year when they finished second. The Denison men did have divers which is why they beat Kenyon this year, same as last year.

      But as pointed above the primary flaw with the poll is its dependency on the coaches submitting the power points. Some coaches, including those presumably who’s teams would be at the top, do not submit anything at the beginning of the year.

      Another system would be similar to football where we you have the AP poll. You could then assemble swimming “experts” and have them rank the various teams. This would no doubt produce an interesting comparison to the current poll which is analgous to the football “coaches” poll.

    • #31343
      silentp
      Member

      D3swimming.com attempted to do dual (or duel) meet rankings last year based on the votes of some people here. It didn’t work as well as we hoped and the same would happen with an AP poll or coaches poll. Unfortunately, it’s very difficult to look at all of the meets across the country and compare them. It sounds easy, but I can speak from experience having done it, and it’s really tough. Also, there wasn’t a lot of interest in the results that we came to, from what i recall. Within individual conferences these might have more meaning and be easier to calculate… except conferences like the UAA where they don’t compete against one another.

    • #31344

      is the collegeswimming.com poll updated yet or are they still from last year

    • #31345
      Psimon3
      Member

      The latest poll should be coming out very soon. They gave it a MAJOR facelift and while it will never be 100% accurate, it will be an upgrade. We had to submit everything early this week

    • #31346

      does anyone know the date on this

    • #31347
      neswim
      Member

      CollegeSwimming poll for Div III is now up to date so we can resume, the now annual, debate.

      Men

      1. Denison
      2. DePauw
      3. Carnegie Mellon
      4. Emory
      5. CA-Santa Cruz

      NB: Kenyon is 7th and John Hopkins is 9th.

      Women

      1. Kenyon
      2. WI-Stevens Point
      3. Emory
      4. Carnegie Mellon
      5. Wittenberg
      6. Denison

      Obviously too early for NESCAC so no one from that conference.

      Everybody agree with this?

    • #31348
      Cali-man
      Member

      Interesting. I would have thought JHOP or Washington & Lee would have placed higher, especially after CMU lost to W&L in a tri-meet. Go Santa Cruz, I can’t wait to see what they will do come taper time.

    • #31349
      fr0gman
      Member

      So, I must be missing something, because after looking at their results, I fail to see an event that UWSP would win against Emory, much how they would win the whole meet. On the men’s side Depauw has had some nice swims, but I don’t think that they beat Emory, Hopkins or Kenyon head to head.

    • #31350

      Whats new, the rankings are crap.

    • #31351
      trout3
      Member

      Interesting. I would have thought JHOP or Washington & Lee would have placed higher, especially after CMU lost to W&L in a tri-meet. Go Santa Cruz, I can’t wait to see what they will do come taper time.

      Cali-Man…. There already was a taper involved with UCSC’s times…

      http://www.goslugs.com/teams/swimming/stats/speedo_cup.html

      read the last paragraph

    • #31352
      neswim
      Member

      Well you know there’s a problem with a poll when you have to explain multiple times in the season opening text that this is a dual meet poll versus a national rankings poll. Given that EVERYONE wants a national ranking poll why does collegeswimming.com continue to deliver a dual meet ranking with an “objective scoring system” [sic]. My only conclusion is that a national ranking system could basically be derived from a mid-season cut list, so that anyone so interested could compile a list using a truly objective system. There would be the usual uncertainity, given differences in training/rest/taper leading up the Nationals so this would not be totally uninteresting.

    • #31353
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @trout3 wrote:

      Interesting. I would have thought JHOP or Washington & Lee would have placed higher, especially after CMU lost to W&L in a tri-meet. Go Santa Cruz, I can’t wait to see what they will do come taper time.

      Cali-Man…. There already was a taper involved with UCSC’s times…

      http://www.goslugs.com/teams/swimming/stats/speedo_cup.html

      read the last paragraph

      I’m still impressed by the Slugs. I don’t remember them being that fast last year – I don’t recall many, if any, B cuts out of them. And by impressed I mean that they swam fast. If they each drop just a little more time (and the fourth guy develops) their 200 Free Relay could qualify. Their splits were 21.92 – 20.88 – 22.02 – 20.60. That’s pretty quick for a three day rest.

    • #31354
      Cali-man
      Member

      @trout3 wrote:

      Interesting. I would have thought JHOP or Washington & Lee would have placed higher, especially after CMU lost to W&L in a tri-meet. Go Santa Cruz, I can’t wait to see what they will do come taper time.

      Cali-Man…. There already was a taper involved with UCSC’s times…

      http://www.goslugs.com/teams/swimming/stats/speedo_cup.html

      read the last paragraph

      True, 3 days is a small taper, but think of the major taper at the end of the season. Imagine if only .2 or .3 came off each 50 in a mediocre scenario. If they have an amazing taper, I could see them go 1:23 for that 200 FR and some men go to nattys for an individual event. I have faith in the Banana Slugs.

    • #31355
      trout3
      Member

      I wish them alot of luck…. I know Kim Mucsh has had a recent emphasis on the men’s team the past couple of years. As few as there are, it’s also nice to see a public DIII Cal school make a showing. In fact, isn’t UCSC the only California public DIII instiution with a men’s team?

    • #31356

      its a dual meet ranking but my team could double the points of the 20th ranked team in a dual meet

    • #31357
      babwik
      Member

      Giff, put together your team’s power points yourself. It’s easy, if time consuming. Then just have your coach or assistant submit it. Better than getting upset over which teams you think you’re better than being ranked!

    • #31358

      i feel like i would be out of place doing this since im only a freshman….but just for some prespective, how many teams, if u had to guess, are better than the 20th ranked team, and are not listed?

    • #31359
      trout3
      Member

      I think easily Springfield, TCNJ and NYU to name a few. Probably didn’t submit……

    • #31360

      id say they could all be on the top 10 or top 15 atleast

    • #31361
      neswim
      Member

      First look in 2007 at the collegeswimming.com poll for Div III. No Amherst or Williams from NESCAC.

      Men
      1) Denison
      2) Emory
      3) Kenyon

      O.K. no quibble with the top 3 based on dual meet format. JHU as 13th is a puzzle.

      Women
      1) Emory
      2) Kenyon
      3) UW-Stevens Point
      4) Wittenberg
      5) Denison

      This a real head scratcher…I could see putting the Denison women first more probable than fifth….Why is Emory ahead of Denison or Kenyon? Emory has the depth to maybe finish ahead of Denison at nationals but don’t see how they would beat them under dual meet scoring rules…re Kenyon if we score it dual meet or nationals they beat Emory based on top times to date.

      I’m convinced the sole purpose of this poll is to generate debate.

    • #31362
      Chris Knight
      Member

      My quibble: W&L has beaten 2 teams ranked ahead of them.

    • #31363
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @Chris Knight wrote:

      My quibble: W&L has beaten 2 teams ranked ahead of them.

      There are really two problems that create that issue:

      1. If you win an event by only a few hundredths you barely outscore them in the poll, whereas if you were beat by a couple seconds they gain a huge advantage. in a meet how much you win by doesn’t matter, in the poll it does.

      2. If one team does a midseason taper and the other does not then the times submitted are a lot different than they were in the head to head contest (or if one team was already rested for the dual meet and they both did a midseason taper – in other words, one team started resting earlier)

      Take it with a grain of salt – it’s not like it means anything other than to generate discussion.

    • #31364
      Chris Knight
      Member

      Fair points. Also, in a real dual meet if a team has no diving then the other team can’t use diving to their advantage (at least, I’ve never heard of anyone doing it – that would be a lame move, to have diving against nobody). But in the poll, if you don’t have any diving at all, you can lose a lot of ground.

    • #31365

      Contesting diving when the other team doesn’t have divers happens all the time. I’ve been on both sides as a swimmer and a coach. The reality is, our sport is swimming AND diving. Just becuase a team doens’t have a distance swimmer doesn’t mean that the other team shouldn’t contest the 1000. If you’re team is losing meets becuase of a lack of diving, the only solution is to go get some divers.

    • #31366
      N Dynamite
      Member

      I have to agree with Southwestern U on this, but there is one other factor – in a dual meet you can take 1-3 and outscore your opponent 12-7. With a poll like this, if the 2-4-5 times are fast enough your oponent could “win” the event. For instance, if the 50 ended up 20.66, 20.67, 22.00, 22.01, 22.02, 24.55 the 2-4-5 combo would score more in the poll.

      By the way, does anyone else think it’s odd that JHU was ranked so low?

    • #31367
      Chris Knight
      Member

      @Southwestern U. Swimming wrote:

      Contesting diving when the other team doesn’t have divers happens all the time. I’ve been on both sides as a swimmer and a coach. The reality is, our sport is swimming AND diving. Just becuase a team doens’t have a distance swimmer doesn’t mean that the other team shouldn’t contest the 1000. If you’re team is losing meets becuase of a lack of diving, the only solution is to go get some divers.

      There’s a difference between not having recruited a distance swimmer and not having diving because you don’t have boards (or a deep enough pool to add them). It’s within the rules and would get you as much as 32 free points, but to me that’s a cheap move.

      Plus I just hate diving. I think it’s closer to gymnastics than swimming and they shouldn’t have anything to do with each other. Having them together shortchanges the divers, too – they get far less attention paid to them in college than at the Olympics, where the sports are totally seperate.

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