Best ever calcs

This took me about 3 minutes at work, so it might not be comprehensive. How about the following criteria:

• Individual Top 8 Nationals Performances: 1st (10 points), 2nd (7 points), 3rd-8th (5-1 pts)
• A-cuts: 5 points each event (no redundancy allowed, i.e. multiple years)
• Individual NCAA Records: 10 points each for each record, 1 point for breaking own record ( I don’t agree with his assessment of different distance, same stroke)
• Individual MIAA titles (5 pts each)
• Individual MIAA records (5 pts each, 1 point for breaking own record)

The problem is that some swims have quite a bit of overlap. Maybe A-cuts should be deleted. That needs to be rewarded independently somehow though.

I tried to come up with a list but I can’t remember any girl names. I feel kind of bad about that.

Suggested Modified Criteria. What do you think?

• Individual Top 8 Nationals Performances: 1st (20 points), 2nd (12 points),
3rd (10 points), 4th-6th (9 points), 7th (8 points) 8th (7 points)
Rational: 1st vs 2nd at nats should be huge. So what if you were 7th or 8th in finals at nats. You didn’t keep up.

• A-cuts: 10 points each event (no redundancy allowed, i.e. multiple years)
Rational: A-cuts shouldn’t be the same value as a win since you don’t have to go as fast for an A-cut as you do to win.

• Individual NCAA Records: 20 points each for each record, 2 points for breaking own record (I don’t agree with his assessment of different distance, same stroke)
I just doubled these. See note about MIAA below.

• Individual MIAA titles (5 pts each)
Rational: Left this the same number, but relatively half as much. MIAA title should not be worth as much as performance at nationals. I have two titles and I never even qualified for nats.

• Individual MIAA records (10 pts each, 1 point for breaking own record)
MIAA record should be worth more than MIAA title. See above.

Don’t count A-cuts. It is redundant. Most people who place top 8 at NCAA’s most likely had an A-cut so you unnecessarily inflate their score by counting it separately. And if you had an A-cut and didn’t place………well, I don’t want to be too harsh here.

You should pick metrics that transcend time. however. Nationals didn’t always have an A and B-cut format to qualify and didn’t always score 16 places (use to be 12). Counting Top 8 isn’t necessarily a bad thing. Even in the old days winning the consi’s (7th) or consi runner-up (8th) was an accomplishment of merit.

Counting records is tricky, particularly MIAA ones. Do you count breaking one in prelims and re-breaking in finals? What if you held one then somebody else broke it then you break it again (is that a 5 or a 1)? You can see how this gets hard to award let alone difficult to dig all that data up. The easiest league information to find would be what was set based on the end of one season to the end of the next. National records are a little more rare and easier to track.

Could it be possible to factor in the NISCA powerpoints for swims?

However this would have to be factored in. Like 1000 NISCA points=20 points or something of the nature.

If you think, if someone has one event where they would qualify in D1 nats, they should get some points for being a stud.

@TheDon wrote:

And if you had an A-cut and didn’t place………well, I don’t want to be too harsh here.

That is actually pretty harsh – this year the men’s 50 had 8 A-cuts going into the meet. The top nine finishers all went A Cuts and Roy Burch (20.48?) wasn’t even at the meet. Some years are faster than others – I don’t think you can assume that an A cut will final every year.

I like your relative weights. I guess I figured everyone here would want MIAA’s accomplishments to be the same as nationals for some reason.

Digging up information is going to suck. Especially for guys like Peel. Maybe the best way to do it is just be comparing personal bests with the index, adjusted by some sort of rate of swimming inflation, or deflation if you will.

It may be harsh but again I remind you that an A-cut does not transcend time so it should not be awarded points. Same with placing 13-16 (unless you want to try to find that data for the 12-place years). If you are concerned about tough years that an A-cut (swum at the meet) doesn’t place top eight then award points for a top ten or top twelve finish.

This year, all individual A-cut qualifiers that made the cut at the MIAA meet were exclusively MIAA champs so they are already getting points. Some of those were MIAA records so they get more points for the same effort. There were no double A-cut individual events in 2007. In 2006 we had two A-cuts in the women’s 100 fly. Both swimmers scored top 8 at D-IIIs. So Lisa Smith gets 5 more points than Lingbeek for the MIAA win and more points for placing higher at DIIIs but both rack up national points for placing. In 2005, Lingbeek beat Smith at MIAAs but Smith took 4th at DIII’s while Lingbeek took 16th. Things have a way of working out and neither of these swimmers need extra points for making the DIII meet to distinguish them from the others potentially on and probably lower on the list.

Do you really want to award points to somebody that achieves an A-cut at say the Eastern Invite or some other fall shave/taper meet and never gets back down to that time…when it counts (either at the league or at DIIIs)?

Divers? Do you do a separate ranking or multiply their point total by 1.5 because there are only two boards in DIII?

Relays? This category also doesn’t trascend time as there was a time before the addition of the sprint relays when only three were swum. And there was even a time when the MIAA didn’t swim the 800 free relay at league but it was contested at Nationals.

If what you are trying to tabulate is the top ten to twenty of all time you won’t need to award points for making the D-III meet but not placing. But if you want to tabulate the top hundred, good luck finding all of that data and have it be fair to all years involved.

@TheDon wrote:

It may be harsh but again I remind you that an A-cut does not transcend time so it should not be awarded points.

Actually, if there is one thing that does transcend time it is the A and B cut. It is based on an average of a certain place finisher from over the previous so many years (although they never get slower). Therefore, it is a standard by which you should be able to compare a guy from 1987, 1997, and 2007. The A cut is designed to allow for a certain number of guys to achieve it. If you made an A cut in 1977 you are theoretically one of the top 5 (or better) in your event for that year. I would be surprised if the A cut for the 50 doesn’t tighten up next year to reflect that idea because the time was too slow this year. I think you should continue to include it – what about those guys who could achieve the A cut in the 100 and 200 stroke and the 200 and 400 IM? Don’t they deserve more points for being good across a greater range? Your logic assumes that they swim all of their A cuts – they could achieve more than 3 in a season, especially if they lead off relays but don’t enter the 100 back, 50 free, 100 free, or 200 free as individuals. While it may not have happened recently (or ever) do you want to set that limitation? “Sorry you’re so good we don’t want to count these other achievements – even though we’re trying to determine the best ever we really mean in only three events, not overall.”

i think both arguements make sense – Don’s point about “double-dipping” seems valid, as does the point about A-/B-cuts “transcending time”. perhaps whoever plugs the swimmers in can just calculate it both ways and see what impact it has on the order?

anyway, based on the criteria we’ve discussed, here’s a baker’s dozen that i could think of off the top of my head (and of course it is kzoo heavy). i’m sure i missed a couple that other people might want to throw in the mix:

Kurtz
Judsen
N. Duda
Latham
Robbins
Miller
J. Walker
The Don
Boss
Peel
Slagh
Assink
Blohm

If you know the exact formula for an A-cut and want to go back in time and calculate what they would have been in 1977 or any other year that they did not use that system then be my guest. We did not have an A-cut back in 1977. We had a cut. One single qualifying time that you achieved and went to the meet based on (like our current MHSAA system). I have no idea how they set them. Admittedly the time standards were much easier to achieve but you only swam that event and the others that you had a cut in. No make one cut and swim many. No consideration cuts. No line, no filling events to a total meet number to even out the field. You got what you got in an event and the cut times were adjusted to try to have some unknown target number per event the next year. Relay only swimmers only swam the relay they made it on, period. You couldn’t make up relays with the guys you had at the meet. We had four guys there my freshman year but did not swim a medley because we didn’t make the cut. We only swam the 400 and 800 free relay that year. Because the MIAA didn’t have an 800 free relay back then we qualified with four flat start 200 times (there weren’t all the invitationals back then either). My sophomore and junior year only our Medley made it and we did not swim either of the free relays. Only in my Senior year did we qualify all three.

Over the years the NCAA has gone through several permutations to optimize the money they were spending covering people going to the meet. If they were paying for them to go they wanted them swimming, not watching. Anyway, eventually the A/B-cut system is what resulted and is where we are today. But it went through a few changes so by awarding points for A-cuts you discriminate against not only my era but about 10 or more years beyond that up until the point that the A/B system arrived on scene. Otherwise, I think the rest of the point system and weighting was right on target.

oh, one more thing, taking another look at the criteria, it looks like it could be applied to divers as well (except for A-cuts – i never really paid that much attention to how that worked). might be fun to plug a few in and see how they stack up against the swimmers (the sport is swimming AND diving, right?!?). anyway, the only ones i could think that might be able to crack the list are all from kzoo:

Oberholtzer
Gorton
Holt
Ullrey(?)

@teemohtay wrote:

Kurtz
Judsen
N. Duda
Latham
Robbins
Miller
J. Walker
The Don
Boss
Peel
Slagh
Assink
Blohm

We should still include girls, or people we believe to be girls.

I feel like Duck has some useful insight here.

I always screw up the stupid reply button

@Captain Insano wrote:

We should still include girls, or people we believe to be girls.

I feel like Duck has some useful insight here.

I don’t know about you, but I am pretty jacked for the championship game tonight. I am winning my office pool.

@stiles wrote:

I don’t know who The Don is

The guy with the most individual All-American swims in league history, a former national record holder, and a 4-time MIAA MVP. I can see why you missed him.

Something I have been wondering for about 10 years:

Don:
In 1979 kzoo 400 Medley at NCAA’s:
Backstroker Finaled
Breaststroker Finaled
Flyer (would have finaled but swam 400 IM)
Freestyler: Some guy named McGinnis

Somehow that relay finished 12th. I am going to go out on a limb here and say McGinnis was a little weak on the end.

DonCheadle,

Yes, your observations are correct. PNelis from the year before (MIAA 100 free champ in 1978) transferred to Hope so the anchor on the medley was up for grabs. We had a situation where a senior out swam freshman McGinnis at the league meet in the 100 free but McGinnis had posted a faster time during the season so Coach went with McGinnis for the Medley. As you can surmise we still didn’t have four guys fast enough to qualify a 400 free relay (we just missed it) so we were hurting for sprint freestylers. I think his split was in the 49s. While 28 years ago that was a decent time it was still giving up about 2 to 3 seconds to the DIII field.

@DonCheadle wrote:

@stiles wrote:

I don’t know who The Don is

The guy with the most individual All-American swims in league history, a former national record holder, and a 4-time MIAA MVP. I can see why you missed him.

I would still like to know his name. Pardon us. It’s not like we’re saying he sucks or something. Obviously the modifications should be made so that older swimmers before the A/B cut are included.

check miaa.org and find the guy(s) who swam in the late 70’s and were also 4 time miaa mvps…..it’s not rocket science 🙂

Hey guys…..it is Don Knoechel…..hence “The Don.”

@stiles wrote:

I don’t know who The Don is and I don’t know any of Miller’s times. So I am not completely on board with the list that came out, but it wouldn’t take much.

Hope guys and others to consdier:

Jon Hescott
Dan Knapp
Jeff Bannick
Tim Dehaan

Steve Domin
PBG
White

Duh. PBG. I knew I was missing a no brainer from Calvin. He should absolutely be in the mix.
I thought about Domin and White…definitely dominant in MIAA competition but didn’t think they had enough finals at nationals to crack the top 10-12.
Miller – he’s a hall of famer at K, still holds the school 2breast record and had a couple of high places at Nationals. I don’t know this for sure but I suspect he held the MIAA record(s) for awhile. And he began the K/Hope cross-breeding that continued for future generations.
As for the Hope guys, Dehaan was awesome and I recognize the other names (probably from the record boards) so that sounds about right.

Anyway, why not include them all and have a top 20? Maybe one of them will surprise. And I’d like to hear from The Don or DonCheadle (the resident board historians) if there’s anyone else from the early MIAA days who we’re not considering because we are ignorant.

Well I am not sure about all of you but I am curious how this is all going to shake out. Can we at least get started on the names that we have?

Here is Don’s record:

1977: 2nd, 200-yd IM 2nd, 400-yd IM 6th, 200-yd butterfly
1978: 2nd, 400-yd IM 3rd, 200-yd IM 5th, 200-yd butterfly
1979: 3rd, 400-yd IM 4th, 200-yd IM 5th, 200-yd butterfly
1980: 3rd, 200-yd IM, 4th, 400-yd IM

Okay Don, what happened in 1980?

Under current scoring Don would have scored:
1977: 47
1978: 47
1979: 45
1980: 31
Total: 170

Boss scored 157
Gorton scored 147
Robbins scored 114

I am sure that there are many Hope guys who scored over 100 in their careers but Hope does not have the data on their website.

J Walker scored 48 points in 1993, the most for a Hornet in a single year. Probably the best for anyone in league history too.

Don, am I correct that you did set a National Record (in prelims)?

@knox wrote:

Hey guys…..it is Don Knoechel…..hence “The Don.”

wow, he graduated in 1980… does that mean he is close to 50 years old?!?!

I sure hope I have better things to do than post on this site when I am that age…

that’s stupid to say Billy. we ALL have more important things to do.

and I think we should nix the formula and instead just create a list without rankings that would feature the top 50 MIAA swimmers of all time, much like 1996’s NBA’s 50 Greatest Players. and when i say “we” i mean this is a job for silentP and facenorth.

Cheadle,

1977 MIAA

FNelis (Ryan’s uncle), the senior, beat the upstart freshman in the 100 free. He never let’s me forget that either! Nevertheless we went 1-2-3-4 in the 100 free just because Alma bragged after winning the 400 free relay at the MIAA relays. Anyway I lead off the 400 free relay later that night and set the MIAA record in the 100 free, hence faster than Fred or I swam in the 100 final (what a dumb*#s!).

1977 DIII first day:

Yes, I qualified first in the 200 IM setting the record. Smiddy went faster at night and set a new one. I went faster too but slower than Smiddy to finish second. BTW, they do give you a certificate even when you only hold it for only 6 hours.

1980 DIII third day:

I actually got 10th in the 200 fly in 1980. The MIAA website doesn’t have that one. My last 200 fly consi swim was the first time I swam a race with goggles in my life (used them in practice all the time though). Everything went fine with the goggles. That wasn’t the reason for the place. But the reason for the goggles was that over the course of the meet my eyes had a growing bad reaction to the chlorine. That was the first time that ever happened in fourteen years of competitive swimming. It may have be compounded by using the wrong eyedrops early on. I recall at dinner after the second night barely being able to see. Anyway things got worse from there. I got all stuffed up. Felt like crap. I had a sh#*&y prelim swim in the 200 fly and qualified twelfth. Swam with the goggles at night, didn’t improve a lot but two other guys got worse so I slipped in for tenth. Ditched the goggles for the 400 free relay, anchored in 47.0. Problem was our lead-off guy missed his opening turn. If we would have won consi’s (a reasonable expectation, I think we qualified 8th) we would have been 4th place team all alone. Instead two other teams tied for 4th and we got 6th. On the other hand if my 200 fly hadn’t sucked we might have been 4th too. Oh well. Water way under the bridge.

@TheDon wrote:

Cheadle,

1977 MIAA

FNelis (Ryan’s uncle), the senior, beat the upstart freshman in the 100 free. He never let’s me forget that either! Nevertheless we went 1-2-3-4 in the 100 free just because Alma bragged after winning the 400 free relay at the MIAA relays. Anyway I lead off the 400 free relay later that night and set the MIAA record in the 100 free, hence faster than Fred or I swam in the 100 final (what a dumb*#s!).

1977 DIII first day:

Yes, I qualified first in the 200 IM setting the record. Smiddy went faster at night and set a new one. I went faster too but slower than Smiddy to finish second. BTW, they do give you a certificate even when you only hold it for only 6 hours.

1980 DIII third day:

I actually got 10th in the 200 fly in 1980. The MIAA website doesn’t have that one. My last 200 fly consi swim was the first time I swam a race with goggles in my life (used them in practice all the time though). Everything went fine with the goggles. That wasn’t the reason for the place. But the reason for the goggles was that over the course of the meet my eyes had a growing bad reaction to the chlorine. That was the first time that ever happened in fourteen years of competitive swimming. It may have be compounded by using the wrong eyedrops early on. I recall at dinner after the second night barely being able to see. Anyway things got worse from there. I got all stuffed up. Felt like crap. I had a sh#*&y prelim swim in the 200 fly and qualified twelfth. Swam with the goggles at night, didn’t improve a lot but two other guys got worse so I slipped in for tenth. Ditched the goggles for the 400 free relay, anchored in 47.0. Problem was our lead-off guy missed his opening turn. If we would have won consi’s (a reasonable expectation, I think we qualified 8th) we would have been 4th place team all alone. Instead two other teams tied for 4th and we got 6th. On the other hand if my 200 fly hadn’t sucked we might have been 4th too. Oh well. Water way under the bridge.

Wow, I can’t even recall the 1998 MIAA’s as clearly. Don, you have a mind like a steel trap.

p.s. the capital of Jabooty is Jabooty!

Don,

Your post reminds me of a WW2 narrative. I enjoyed it very much.

Anybody care to comment on the recent change of coaching personel at Olivet and Hope?

@teemohtay wrote:

p.s. the capital of Jabooty is Jabooty!

You don’t give another guy’s girl a foot massage and you don’t put her in your five… *secret lovers*

I thought you guys would get a kick out of this. I happened to have a 1979 Official Collegiate Swimming Guide that one of my old age group coaches gave me a long time ago. In it are all the results of the NCAA meets and the conferences, even the high school state meets from the year before, qualifying times for the coming season and the rules. Anyway I thought I would show you the 1979 DIII cuts compared to the 10th place finish from the 1978 DIII meet. I picked the 10th place time as opposed to the 12th to factor out the “bag the final” swims. Do remember back then, 12 place scoring, back turns were on your back and you had to touch the wall with your hand, your head could not go underwater during breaststroke other than during the pullout, people had yet to figure out the benefits of extended underwater dolphin kicking on fly, back and free (though it wasn’t illegal), the MIAA did not contest the 400 IM or the 800 free relay, we didn’t have all these Dec. invites to have two chances to make the cuts (because we didn’t have to!), most of the best pools of the day were the 33 meter special with a bulkhead (like WMU which was built about then, but Cleveland State was the hottest new all deep pool of the era) though blocks were still, for the most part, in the shallow end…..and we all walked to class barefoot in a blinding snow storm every day……….

EVENT 1979 Qual. Time 1978 10th place
50 free 22.16 22.073
100 free 48.63 48.401
200 free 1:47.59 1:46.123
500 free 4:52.70 4:47.765
1650 free 17:07.15 16:50.057
100 fly 53.83 53.311
200 fly 1:59.92 2:00.282
100 back 56.39 56.309
200 back 2:03.40 2:02.410
100 breast 1:02.24 1:01.619
200 breast 2:16.26 2:14.971
200 IM 2:02.30 2:00.064
400 IM 4:25.21 4:21.906
400 FR 3:17.23 3:15.192
800 FR 7:19.29 7:10.675
400 MR 3:42.51 3:42.078

Seems easy to make the meet, huh? Certainly by today’s times. But I think some of the 10th place times show you it wasn’t all that easy back then. People made it, lot’s didn’t. I was fortunate enough to never have to shave or taper to make the meet so I always swam through MIAAs and saved the big swim for nationals. I don’t envy you guys these days at all with the A/B cut system and two and three taper seasons. I think an Acut is an awesome thing to accomplish and never meant to imply otherwise. My only point was because that wasn’t the system for many years, it was a whole different qualifying experience and to compare is difficult.

By the way, anybody remember the year the A/B cut system was first used?