All time MIAC Roster

  • This topic is empty.
Viewing 23 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #12938

      As part of a 2 part look at the “History of the MIAC, ESPN era”, I’d like to throw out my all time MIAC roster. (And by roster I mean top guy in each event, but it would be cool to pick the top guys to fill out a complete roster).

      I’m basing this not just on the current MIAC record book, but how they were dominant in their era.

      Relays are taken as a whole, not based on a mix of other teams swimmers.

      50 Free: Matt Zelen – SJU
      100 Free: Matt Zelen – SJU
      200 Free: Jason Hanson – Olaf
      500 Free: Kevin Casson – Olaf
      1650 Free: Kevin Casson – Olaf
      100 Back: Scott Hagemeyer – GAC
      200 Back: Bob Hauck – Olaf
      100 Breast: Max Harper – Car
      200 Breast: Nelson Westby – Olaf
      100 Fly: Matt Zelen – SJU
      200 Fly: Jeremy Ahrens/Sam Weigersma – GAC
      200 IM: Bob Hauck – Olaf
      400 IM: Bob Hauck – Olaf
      200 FR: SJU ’96 – 1:23.43… Underhill, Zelen, Schmitz, Stevens
      400 FR: GAC ’07 – 3:00.98… Stewart, Hagemeyer, Amundson, Hanson
      800 FR: Olaf ’87 – 6:47.61 Casson, T. Olson, Liddiard, Hauck
      200 MR: Olaf ’07 – 1:30.47 Meyer, Wareham, Westby, Koch
      400 MR: Olaf ’07 – 3:22.34 Kukla, Wareham, Westby, Koch

      This was a quick stab. I couldn’t find what place some of the guys took (archives only go so far back, so please feel free to disagree). I think relays was harder to choose from.

      200 Fly was tough too, Maybe Niznik from Olaf (couldn’t find his times) or Stewart could be the top guy.

      I gave Harper the nod in the 100 Breast because he’s tied with Westby for the record, but he swam it 10 years ago, and it was before the dolphin kick era.

    • #42699

      Were you basing your roster on how dominant these people were at the conference level or on the national level?

      If you were using national comparisons, ignore the rest of my post, but if you were leaning more towards how dominate they were on the conference level, I am not sure that is the best way. I think everyone would agree that Olaf was far superior to the rest of the MIAC for many years. By having basically one team at conference, it really cuts the competition from other people and team on the conference level.
      For example (an entirely made up situation for dramatization): Suppose Swimmer A has a huge margin of victory in conference, but places only 18th at nationals. Compare this to having two swimmers, X and Y, who 1-2 conference, but place 2 and 6 at nationals. If judging by how dominate these swimmers are at the conference level, Swimmer A is clearly the more dominate swimmer and would make the roster. If looking at national comparisons, Swimmer X seems to be the swimmer deserving a spot on the roster since he was better compared to the nation.
      I am not saying that this would actually change anything since I have not done any detailed research, but it was just my first thought.

    • #42700

      I based it primarily on nationals and overall time comparisons. But each event was looked at different.

      For example, I thought Bob Hauck holding his 200 IM record for like 10 years was better than Westby winning nats last year, so I gave the nod to Hauck. Or if guys swam similar times, but one swam it in the 80s or 90s, I found it more impressive. I guess a good way to compare eras would be to look at the qualification times of that era and see where the swims match up… but I can’t find much pre late 90s.

      Like I mentioned in the Harper example… I think his 100 Breast time is much more impressive considering he did it without the current dolphin kick rules. I wasn’t sure on when the rule started (2004 maybe?), so I gave the nod to Westby for now over Prokop from SJU who was also a 2:02 in 2005.

      For relays I looked partly at times, and partly at who swam on them. Like Hauck and Casson on the 800 FR with a time in ’87 that was barely topped last year.

      The SJU 200 FR time has been beat by lots of different GAC relays, but they did it in 1996. I was trying to see what place it took at nationals. I think GAC took 2nd at nats in the 200 FR a few years ago.

      Like I said, the hard part was finding conference or nationals results prior to the late 90s.

    • #42701

      I am changing my 200 Breast to Greg Sampson from Carleton… I forgot about him. He was a 2:03.01 back in 1990 and held the record I think until Prokop broke it in 2005.

    • #42702
      Monti
      Member

      I am ok with most of your pics, except there is no way you can consider Wigersma for the 2 Fly. He was only at GAC for what, a year and a half, 2 years?, and had guys like Jeff Simonson or Nick Early who were right with him on the same team. You have to take Stewart or Niznik.

    • #42703
      wonderboy33
      Member

      The SJU 200 free relay from 1996 was seeded 3rd going to Nationals. The 1:23.43 was done at the conference meet. The relay went no faster than 1:24 at Nationals and placed something like 12th. I think with JC coaching that team, the relay would have been top 3 at Nationals. Also remember that this was the Pat Haws era and before Zelen decided to put some effort into practices.

    • #42704
      wonderboy33
      Member

      I think it would be interesting to select from all of the teams when choosing relays.

    • #42705

      @Monti wrote:

      I am ok with most of your pics, except there is no way you can consider Wigersma for the 2 Fly. He was only at GAC for what, a year and a half, 2 years?, and had guys like Jeff Simonson or Nick Early who were right with him on the same team. You have to take Stewart or Niznik.

      Forgot about Early and Simebone. Early didn’t swim at GAC long either. And I’m not sure that Simebone ever went faster than either Wiegersma or Ahrens. I could be proven wrong on that. I couldn’t find Niznik’s times either, I just saw he was all-american a bunch of times in the event.

      If you filled the relays with swimmers from other teams, the medleys would basically be the guys listed in each 100 stroke event (Zellen couldn’t swim both the free and fly though). But going 4 deep in the free relays would be interesting. Like for the 200 or 400 free relay you’d have to pick between guys like Zelen, Keven O’Laughlin, Underhill, Amundson, Hagemeyer, Tim Olson (Olaf), Tom Kubkinski (SJU), Soren Peterson (SJU), Jim Arnold (SJU), and Koch.

    • #42706
    • #42707

      Wow, SJU shit the bed adding 2 seconds. The seed time still makes them the second fastest relay in the country that year I guess.

    • #42708
      Monti
      Member

      If you filled the relays with swimmers from other teams, the medleys would basically be the guys listed in each 100 stroke event (Zellen couldn’t swim both the free and fly though). But going 4 deep in the free relays would be interesting. Like for the 200 or 400 free relay you’d have to pick between guys like Zelen, Keven O’Laughlin, Underhill, Amundson, Hagemeyer, Tim Olson (Olaf), Tom Kubkinski (SJU), Soren Peterson (SJU), Jim Arnold (SJU), and Koch.

      If you are going to look at combining relays, you also need to include Sutor as a possible choice for the fly if Zelen is your free choice.

    • #42709
      wonderboy33
      Member

      Wow, the relay did worse than I thought. SJU crapped the bed on everything but the 400 free relay. The results don’t show but this is also the year that Zelen and Underhill both missed the 100 fly. Underhill was planning on going up for his event and Haws told him he had plenty of time before both he and Zelen swam. The next thing you know, their heat was up and swimming. Haws is a hell of a motivator.

    • #42710

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      I gave Harper the nod in the 100 Breast because he’s tied with Westby for the record, but he swam it 10 years ago, and it was before the dolphin kick era.

      I would agree with this call. That dolphin kick, when executed correctly and smoothly, is an insane speed boost. I’m very curious to see how this addition will play out at Nationals with the top breaststrokers now that they’ve had some time to practice with and get the timing right.

    • #42711

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      I think GAC took 2nd at nats in the 200 FR a few years ago.

      Correct. They did it in 2005 in Michigan at Hope college. They led the entire race and were finally overtaken in the last leg. There was quite a large thread dedicated to the like (or dislike) of the Holland pool, with the consensus seeming to be that the sprinters didn’t like the way the wall and quick depth change created waves on the far end. I don’t remember exactly, but wasn’t Christianson just a little guy who could’ve been tossed around by this?

        1)  KENYON                                    1:22.92               1:22.75
      1) DUDA, ANDREJS JR :20.99 3) BERGER, JAMES JR 1:02.44
      2) HUNT, RUSSELL SR :42.01 4) ASHBY, THOMAS SR 1:22.75

      2) GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS 1:22.85 1:22.95
      1) HAGEMEYER, SCOTT SO :20.81 3) SUTOR, WILL SR 1:01.77
      2) AMUNDSON, BRIAN SO :41.31 4) CHRISTIANSON, EVAN SR 1:22.95
    • #42712
      Monti
      Member

      @wonderboy33 wrote:

      Wow, the relay did worse than I thought. SJU crapped the bed on everything but the 400 free relay. The results don’t show but this is also the year that Zelen and Underhill both missed the 100 fly. Underhill was planning on going up for his event and Haws told him he had plenty of time before both he and Zelen swam. The next thing you know, their heat was up and swimming. Haws is a hell of a motivator.

      any of your swimmers blame you now for them missing their races? I had a dad threaten me once because his 7 year old daughter missed her event. It was like her last chance at like a C cut or something.

    • #42713
      silentp
      Member

      @Rustie Gustie wrote:

      I would agree with this call. That dolphin kick, when executed correctly and smoothly, is an insane speed boost. I’m very curious to see how this addition will play out at Nationals with the top breaststrokers now that they’ve had some time to practice with and get the timing right.

      I completely agree but will say 1 thing: For many swimmers, it’s actually slower. Having watched it for a couple years now, the good swimmers who have worked on it show considerable speed coming from it, but most actually slow down due to bad body position. Westby, for instance, uses it very well, while Schrank (from Carthage) didn’t dolphin at all. This is smart, because most people would do it regardless of what’s actually faster according to a watch.

      @Rustie Gustie wrote:

      Correct. They did it in 2005 in Michigan at Hope college. They led the entire race and were finally overtaken in the last leg. There was quite a large thread dedicated to the like (or dislike) of the Holland pool, with the consensus seeming to be that the sprinters didn’t like the way the wall and quick depth change created waves on the far end. I don’t remember exactly, but wasn’t Christianson just a little guy who could’ve been tossed around by this?

        1)  KENYON                                    1:22.92               1:22.75
      1) DUDA, ANDREJS JR :20.99 3) BERGER, JAMES JR 1:02.44
      2) HUNT, RUSSELL SR :42.01 4) ASHBY, THOMAS SR 1:22.75

      2) GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS 1:22.85 1:22.95
      1) HAGEMEYER, SCOTT SO :20.81 3) SUTOR, WILL SR 1:01.77
      2) AMUNDSON, BRIAN SO :41.31 4) CHRISTIANSON, EVAN SR 1:22.95

      It’s true, although it was the Holland Acquatics Center, not Hope College, they just played host, it sucked for waves (shhh, don’t tell the Hope guys, they have an odd “I lost my virginity to that pool” attachment to it, don’t ask), but Ashby, while bulky, was a smaller guy too, so it’s probably more of Christianson just getting owned by a Kenyon swimmer knowing how to touch first.

    • #42714
      wonderboy33
      Member

      To add to silentp’s points:

      1. It’s true, if you don’t know how to do the dolphin kick correctly, it can be slower. It all has to do with where it is placed in the pull-down and the body position. If you can do it at the correct time, and keep a stable body position(i.e. not angling down too much) and keep it within the body line, then it can be faster. I also teach kids to only snap the kick down as many of them have a tendency to upkick after the initial snap down. It all depends on how it’s being taught.

      2. Christianson would have been ahead of the wave. In a fairly shallow pool, there may be some residual wave that continues to throw people around but if you’re in the lead, you are ahead of the primary wave (if the heat is close and you’re in a middle lane). If he came up too quickly off the turn, then he may have hit the secondary wave. The bottom line though, is that all swimmers have to deal with the same conditions.

      3. Monti, yes, I have gotten berated for missing kids events once or twice over the years. I suppose it’s different when you have 6 athletes at a National Meet as opposed to 50 athletes at a B/C Meet. By the way, I know that I own some of the responsibility for missing the event. I should have gone with my gut.

    • #42715

      In watching current guys do the breast, it seems like a top level guy like Westby does get a HUGE advantage time-wise… While in the past you had to rely on huge lats for a good underwater pull, now you get the help of the kick.

      Westby probably uses the kick well since he is such a good flyer.

      When I used to swim against Harper, he had the best underwater pull around I thought. I would think a guy like him would be able to use the kick correctly to lower his time. Hard to say I guess.

      Just the fact that coaches teach it now makes me think it makes you go faster.

    • #42716
      Monti
      Member

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      In watching current guys do the breast, it seems like a top level guy like Westby does get a HUGE advantage time-wise… While in the past you had to rely on huge lats for a good underwater pull, now you get the help of the kick.

      Westby probably uses the kick well since he is such a good flyer.

      When I used to swim against Harper, he had the best underwater pull around I thought. I would think a guy like him would be able to use the kick correctly to lower his time. Hard to say I guess.

      Just the fact that coaches teach it now makes me think it makes you go faster.

      Best person I saw use the kick was Timmer this summer in a LCM meet. Came off the wall, literally looked over at the kid next to him who already had attemped the kick and pull, and then whipped his pull, followed by the kick and came up about a body length on the guy (the guy being Zach Weis of Minnesota now).

      ps: what is the ruling on WHEN the kick can be pulled? I have seen many women swimmers do the kick well before they do their underwater pull.

      For all time MIAC, you might have to consider Majewski. His times are not as comparable to Harper or the Olaf guys, but he was a stud on relays helping GAC.

    • #42717
      The Pork
      Member

      I was always curious about how the kick effected breastrokers who already had their pull timed out to come up right on top of the burkoff (sp?) line. I remember watching Tom Sur at nats in 2005 and that guy had one of the longest underwater pulls I’ve ever seen. It was perfectly timed out so that he came up at the line within inches almost every time. I bet the kick would make him get there faster, but it would take a lot of practice I would think to make sure you didn’t go too far.

      Niznik was a 1:51.41 in the 200 fly in ’80

      Mac: didn’t you impose a “no using the word ‘stud'” rule a couple years back? Is that still going to be enforced?

      And no offense to Christianson, but I think he was just a guy who was ‘pretty good’ at the 50 who they put on the end of the relay after a couple guys who were ‘amazing’ at the 50 and another who was ‘really good’ at swimming in general and hoped that he would have enough of a lead that it wouldn’t matter who was swimming anchor. Yes, the pool sucked, but I don’t think it can be used as an excuse for why he got touched out. That was a great race though, and imagine what that relay could’ve been with someone like Stewart swimming that last leg.

    • #42718
      N Dynamite
      Member

      @The Pork wrote:

      I was always curious about how the kick effected breastrokers who already had their pull timed out to come up right on top of the burkoff (sp?) line. I remember watching Tom Sur at nats in 2005 and that guy had one of the longest underwater pulls I’ve ever seen. It was perfectly timed out so that he came up at the line within inches almost every time. I bet the kick would make him get there faster, but it would take a lot of practice I would think to make sure you didn’t go too far.

      The line only applies to fly, back, and free. If you could do a pullout that would go further than 15 meters you wouldn’t get DQ’d.

      By the way, I agree with you on Christianson – he only split a 21.6 (or 7) and I remember thinking “come on, get there” and he just didn’t have it. It wasn’t the pool. At least not in that race.

    • #42719

      @Monti wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      For all time MIAC, you might have to consider Majewski. His times are not as comparable to Harper or the Olaf guys, but he was a stud on relays helping GAC.

      Agreed on Majewski, but he did only swim his Freshman and Senior years. Between that time he quit to concentrate on streaking freshman orientations with Crunchy Sock and me.

    • #42720
      The Treat
      Member

      @Rustie Gustie wrote:

      @Chapel Partner wrote:

      I think GAC took 2nd at nats in the 200 FR a few years ago.

      Correct. They did it in 2005 in Michigan at Hope college. They led the entire race and were finally overtaken in the last leg. There was quite a large thread dedicated to the like (or dislike) of the Holland pool, with the consensus seeming to be that the sprinters didn’t like the way the wall and quick depth change created waves on the far end. I don’t remember exactly, but wasn’t Christianson just a little guy who could’ve been tossed around by this?

        1)  KENYON                                    1:22.92               1:22.75
      1) DUDA, ANDREJS JR :20.99 3) BERGER, JAMES JR 1:02.44
      2) HUNT, RUSSELL SR :42.01 4) ASHBY, THOMAS SR 1:22.75

      2) GUSTAVUS ADOLPHUS 1:22.85 1:22.95
      1) HAGEMEYER, SCOTT SO :20.81 3) SUTOR, WILL SR 1:01.77
      2) AMUNDSON, BRIAN SO :41.31 4) CHRISTIANSON, EVAN SR 1:22.95

      i dont know about the waves, but i didn’t really like that wall either. that being said, we all had to deal w/ it and had a number of days to get used to it. don’t remember christianson’s size. i do remember checking his splits out before the meet and him being the weakest on that relay. i dont think he added any big amount of time from conference, so unless he had huge waves in minnesota as well, i’d say that GAC put their slowest on the last leg and kenyon put one of their fastest.

    • #42721

      Niznik is clearly better than Ahrens and Wigersma should only be listed in the category of people punked by Mac of the MIAC.

      Joe Majeski is a pretty key swimmer in GAC history. He was GAC’s best swimmer the year they beat Olaf. And for that, he probably deserves to be on an all-time GAC list.

Viewing 23 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.