200 Free Relay

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    • #12757
      DonCheadle
      Member

      200 Free relay:

      Ellis Lead Off 21.20
      Greiner 20.80
      This is pretty reasonable. That puts them at 42.0

      If between Fonzi, Bazzel and Flemming they can get 2 guys to split under 21, then they have a shot at winning the relay.

      Using that same optomistic thinking Hope will be in the 1:23 low range but I will ignore that for now

    • #39929
      stewie
      Member

      uhhh…I hope I’m not the only one that thinks it’s ridiculous to think K can win the 2 fr relay. No offense, they have a great shot at second, but first…no. Hope has three 20’s splits and a 21.08 lead off from Vogelzang coming back, so unless K becomes a sprint factory and quick I don’t see them winning…stick to the medleys.

    • #39930
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Cheadle, you may have taken the Kzoo lovin’ a bit far. I mean thats great to be out in 42.0, but then you have to have two guys that aren’t just under 21 they have to be 20.6 to be in the 123 low range. I know that you even don’t beleive it b/c in your other kzoo lovefest thread you said 20.6 might be too fast for Fleming. I just don’t see it, course, I’ve never been good at the guessing game we played so much y’all made a internet site for. But I digress, so not only are you stretching to get zoo to a 23 low you taking Hope to the lowest of their talent. Maybe I am way off, but I’m picturing a body length win for hope.

      How come when we make swimming predictions our guys always get better and everyone else’s always stay the same?

      Don’t worry cheadle I do it too, pretty sure everyone does.

    • #39931
      silentp
      Member

      Bazzel has been 21.1, so I think they have a shot at the school record and possibly breaking 1:24.

      If K wins a free relay, it would be the 800 FR.

    • #39932
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      considering that last year for ellis was the first time he tried the 50 free as an even i think he could be under 21 this year lead off.

    • #39933
      DonCheadle
      Member

      No offense guys, but di you read my post? I did say that by the same optomistic thinking Hope will be a 1:23 low.

      Hope lifetime bests right now are:

      21.08 RV lead off
      20.75 (Rose at MIAA )
      20.82 Kurti Nats in 2007
      20.89 CVB at Nats in 2006

      That is a 1:23.54

      Kzoo is probably a second behind. That is a huge amount to make up.

    • #39934
      stewie
      Member

      @DonCheadle wrote:

      No offense guys, but di you read my post? I did say that by the same optomistic thinking Hope will be a 1:23 low.

      Kzoo is probably a second behind. That is a huge amount to make up.

      Ugh, how’d I know this was going to happen. First, you say K has a chance to win now you say they are probably a second behind and it is huge amount to make up. Sorry, but once again this comes down to training. Vogelzang, Kurti, Rose, and CVB train sprint free…nothing else. Therefore, they will be better trained and taper well in the 50.

      8 fr is no different. Hope will have four guys at 1:44 and better. Tell me how K will win, please. I think K should be more focused on taking second in the free relays, not first.

    • #39935
      maverick1
      Member

      focus on second place? i doubt anybody would really do that, but i guess that’s some creative thinking stewie…….

    • #39936
      SwexasTim
      Member

      yeah really thinking outside of the box stewie….if you focus on second they will not even have a chance to win, hmmm, maybe you are on to something

      I’ve thought about it, I agree with stewie definetly focus on second! πŸ˜€

    • #39937
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      Ugh, how’d I know this was going to happen. First, you say K has a chance to win now you say they are probably a second behind and it is huge amount to make up.

      Reread the post. I have said all along that Hope is the favorite. Do you NOT see the “By the same optomisitic thinking Hope will be a 1:23 low,” in my original post. Unlike previous years, however, there can atleast be a case made for Kzoo winning this relay.

      Exclusively training sprints doesn’t matter if you are a flat out better swimmer.

    • #39938
      Stevo
      Member

      Cheadle in your own little Kzoo fantasy world you can make any case you want.

    • #39939
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      8 fr is no different. Hope will have four guys at 1:44 and better. Tell me how K will win, please. I think K should be more focused on taking second in the free relays, not first.

      Stewie, does Hope have 4 guys who train specifically for the 200 free? I may be wrong here, but I do not believe they do. In fact, you said Rose, RVZ and CVB all train exclusively sprint free, and at a minimum, 2 of those guys will be on this relay. You need to make up your mind on what they train for, because (your idea not mine), if they train sprint, they won’t taper as well for the 200. So perhaps we can admit this is different? Well, at least reasonably people could.

      I never said K would win, but as pointed out, everyone swims to win or get PRs. If you have a shot at winning, you swim to do that. I said “if” they won a free relay, it would be the 800, I never predicted a victory.

      Now, Hope having 4 guys 1:44 or better is probably true, at MIAAs the only guy not under 1:44 was Heyboer, who was getting mowed down by JBG. How could K win this? Let’s look:

      Ellis, he was 1:44.1 the first time he ever swam it tapered, and he has probably swam the event less than 5 times in his life. He can’t be a 1:42 with his 1:50. backstroke?

      Fleming, was 1:45.9 last year but has already shown a 1:48.1 split, a 1:42 split, or even a flat start time, is not unreasonable at all.

      Bazzel, went a 1:19 in the 150 this week (probably a 1:48 for a 200) and is more of a 100-200 guy than a 50-100 guy anyway, so is a 1:43/1:44 split out of the question? Holding him even with a Hope split.

      Dekker, has not had great times leading off this event, but is a relay guy. Split 47.2 last year in the 400 FR, not his event at all and outsplit Nelis in the 400 MR. Could easily be 1:44 or better

      I’m not saying it will happen, but it easily could.

    • #39940
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Cheadle in your own little Kzoo fantasy world you can make any case you want.

      Stevo since when have I needed your permission to post anything?

    • #39941
      stewie
      Member

      I don’t understand you K alum sometimes. Congrats, swim to win, but you won’t. Why not pick an opponent that is more reachable. For example, do you think Hope was trying to win the medley relays last yr…nooooo. They were racing for second…why??? So, glad you asked. I know you K guys may think it unthinkable to shoot for anything but the stars but Hope swam for second place in the medleys b/c they could not beat K, only Olivet. K has one of the fastest front halfs in the nation for their medleys and the back half is only getting faster. If I were to post on here that Hope has a “chance” at winning one of the medleys (silentp, I’m not claiming a victory only pointing out Hope has a chance…give me a break) I would get torn apart. Yet you get mad at me for thinking it unreasonable that K can win a free relay. I think it’s unreasonable that Hope can win a med relay this year and unreasonable that K can win a free relay this year. By “unreasonable” I mean unless something crazy happens like one of K or Hope’s swimmer forgetting how to swim. Hope that clears it up for you.

      So, why not try to beat Olivet in the free relays? In case you forgot you didn’t last year. Seems like it would be an improvement.

    • #39942
      silentp
      Member

      Someone please inform Denison’s 400 FR from last year they couldn’t win at NCAAs. Thank you.

    • #39943
      Stevo
      Member

      Cheadle i’m not sure how my post had anything to do with you needing permission to post. The point was that if you and all the K alum want to (in the words of stewie) “reach for the stars” congratulations! Is it possible for K to win a free relay, yes. Michigan lost to Appalachian State there has been bigger upsets. But Hope would have to DQ or Matt Rose, Ryan Vogelzang, and Chaz would all have to get hit by a train in order for it to happen.

      The beauty of this forum is we can all post whatever we want. That is why cheadle and company can keep on thinking there’s a chance. While stewie, stiles, and I laugh. Cheadle you should love the fact that we say you have no chance, then if K pulls off the unthinkable you can quote this post or one of stewies and tell us how wrong we were.

      I feel like the same 200 FR talk comes up every year, and we all know the track record of this event. Hope in a landslide once again!

    • #39944
      stewie
      Member

      Fine, let’s use silentp’s logic for calculating Hope’s splits on their relays. By your logic of shedding seconds off people’s times from the year previous, I just need to speculate time drops. Seems easy enough. Hope has the possibility of doing this…

      CVB- 1:42.1 last year. Always been a huge relay swimmer and has improved each year since he came to Hope. 1:41.5 lead off
      RVZ- 1:44.9 split last year. First, year he swam the 200 tapered at MIAAs as an individual event. why not 1:43.9 split
      Rose- 1:43.7 at MIAAs last yr split. He was a freshmen under a new program. Adjusting this year with the training, I don’t know let’s say 1:43.0 split
      Nelis- 1:43.3 last year. Same as Rose, new team, coach and training. 1:42.5 split.

      So, the most I took off anyone’s times from last year was one second. Silentp, here are your time drops for K based on PRs…
      Ellis- 2 seconds
      Fleming- 3 to 3.9 seconds
      Bazzel- 1:19 in the 150 terrible predictor for the 200. Yury was 1:15 last yr in the 150. By your method he should have been 1:44…he went 1:45.6.

      Based Ellis and Fleming alone you’ve already dropped more time than Hope’s relay combined. With my splits, Hope goes 6:50.9. Hope might be able to go that, and if they do they definitely win. However, those times are incredibly fast and even taking off .5 to 1 second off each of their splits is a great time drop. All I’m saying is your method of speculating splits seems a little ridiculous and you seem to take off time like it’s nothing.

    • #39945
      maverick1
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Matt Rose, Ryan Vogelzang, and Chaz would all have to get hit by a train in order for it to happen

      dang…..i was thinking more of something like tripping over a wooden shoe, but apparently they’ll have to all be dead before k has a chance

      i think an interesting situation could occur during the relay if k could manage to get a lead on the leadoff…..which i think will be pretty tough with a 21.1 leadoff from hope at nats last year

      and by the way, aren’t miaas a holland this year? if i’m right then i’m going to go ahead and say that no team will go faster than 1:23.65

    • #39946
      Stevo
      Member

      and by the way, aren’t miaas a holland this year? if i’m right then i’m going to go ahead and say that no team will go faster than 1:23.65

      What does swimming in holland have to do with the winning time of the 200 FR?

      The hope sprinters this year will break the MIAA record (1:23.49). This group has more talent than previous Hope spinters that were faster than 1:23.65. I’ll take the under.

      If Kurt Blohm, Travis Barkel, Abe Glas, and I went 1:23.72 this group will be under 1:23.65

    • #39947
      stewie
      Member

      @silentp wrote:

      Someone please inform Denison’s 400 FR from last year they couldn’t win at NCAAs. Thank you.

      Uhh, I would have picked Denison as the favorites for last year based on 2006. In 2006, they got forth, but more importantly they returned all of their relay spots for 2007. The three other teams that beat them in 2006 lost crucial legs of their relays….

      Kenyon- lost Duda(45.5 lead), Berger (45.09), Dehart (45.6)
      Wheaton- lost Denby (46.3 lead), Gyorfi (44.6)
      Wash U- lost Slavik (45.3 lead), Zimmerman (46.7), Triebe (44.4)

      So in reality silentp, I don’t see why it would be unreasonable that the Denison men thought they could win the 4 fr in 2007. In fact, they should have thought of themselves as the favorites, especially considering David Curtis was swimming spectacular all season. They had the fastest returning relay based on the 2006 NCAA.

    • #39948
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      With my splits, Hope goes 6:50.9. Hope might be able to go that… However, those times are incredibly fast

      You make great points, but how much time did Nelis and Rose drop last year as freshmen? K has 2 freshmen I predict will be on the relay. Both come in, in those events, faster than the 2 Hope guys.

      For Ellis’s time, this is from the same group who said he had 0 chance of beating Heyboer in the 200 back, now he intimidates the guy and he chokes when he swims next to him (or Krone for that matter).

      For Dekker, I agree again it’d be a big drop, but he’s never swam it without leading off. There many, many examples of 1:46 flat start guys splitting 1:44.

      Please don’t compare last year’s in-season swims for Olivet to K’s. It’s apples to oranges.

      Also, the quote i highlighted is really funny when you think about it.

    • #39949
      maverick1
      Member

      come on stevo, you remember when nats was at holland that many of the times were quite a bit slower than seed times. this is often the occurence for swimmers or relays on the bubble, but just take into consideration the 50 free from 2006 compared to 2005……all i’m saying is that the pool is slow.

    • #39950
      stewie
      Member

      Note: Hope swimmers typically improve the most their soph. years. Not that any non-Hope swimmer would know that but traditionally they experience their biggest time drops from frosh to soph year. Good news for Hope with a large soph class.

    • #39951
      Stevo
      Member

      For Ellis’s time, this is from the same group who said he had 0 chance of beating Heyboer in the 200 back, now he intimidates the guy and he chokes when he swims next to him (or Krone for that matter).

      Dude silentp that’s that BS. You are comparing a backstroke specialist (ellis) and a distance specialist (krone) against Heyboer who’s training focus was IM. Saying the guy choked is a little bit of an understatement. Did we think Heyboer would be a little quicker yes, but to say he choked is a little pathetic.

      As for Maverick, i understand that HCAC isn’t the fastest pool in the country but with the talent hope is bringing into this event they will be faster than 1:23.65. I think it a cop out to blame swims on a pool.

    • #39952
      silentp
      Member

      @stewie wrote:

      Note: Hope swimmers typically improve the most their soph. years. Not that any non-Hope swimmer would know that but traditionally they experience their biggest time drops from frosh to soph year. Good news for Hope with a large soph class.

      This would be amazing for Hope if true (fantastic sophomore class), but unfortunately it has not been true for most recent stud freshmen/sophomores, RVZ and Gardner, so perhaps that tide is shifting… but getting it back would be great.

      @Stevo wrote:

      Dude silentp that’s that BS. You are comparing a backstroke specialist (ellis) and a distance specialist (krone) against Heyboer who’s training focus was IM. Saying the guy choked is a little bit of an understatement. Did we think Heyboer would be a little quicker yes, but to say he choked is a little pathetic.

      You are entitled to your opinion, but it’s not BS.

    • #39953
      Stevo
      Member

      Keep riding those coat tails….

    • #39954
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Keep riding those coat tails….

      This is when you know a guy has nothing left to say, when he resorts to insults. πŸ˜€

    • #39955
      Stevo
      Member

      And saying that Phil Heyboer choked isn’t an insult?

      You are such a hypocrit.

    • #39956
      DonCheadle
      Member

      I admit it, I only brought this topic up to get some conversation going. Worked like a charm. Attack Hope’s sacred cow and they come out fighting!

      Anyhow, the 200 Free Relay streak ends this year.

    • #39957
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      Saying the guy choked is a little bit of an understatement.

      I think you meant overstatement. Unless you are saying he more than just choked.

      I don’t think choking has anything to with it. Ellis is just a better backstroker than Heyboer and Krone is a better distance swimmer. It wouldn’t be a choke (by Ellis) if Heyboer beat him in a 200 IM.

    • #39958
      Stevo
      Member

      think you meant overstatement. Unless you are saying he more than just choked

      Cheadle I stand corrected, you obviously knew what i meant.

      I’m also glad to see that it wasn’t a choke by Heyboer. He got beat by the better swimmer in those particular events. The only reason he was even in the 500 was to help out his team.

      You did a good job of sparking this forum and making a lousy prediction.

    • #39959
      silentp
      Member

      The choke was meaning he didn’t swim his own race, but it appears as if that was what people were telling him and he was listening to his coaches, which is what you usually like to see. It also was for finals of the 200 back at nationals, when put beside Ellis, he once again didn’t swim his race (from what I have heard and what i see in the splits). Perhaps that’s not choking, but I don’t know how else to term it.

      200 FR streak does not end this year unless there is a FS. I do see it being slower because of the pool however (it’s slower, a fact backed up by times), but perhaps the guys can put it together at nationals and finally make top 8 again, where they obviously have the talent to be. Same with the Kzoo guys, who missed it last year.

    • #39960

      Why does everyone think that the HCAC (or, as I call it, the H-cock) is so slow?? Is it because there weren’t tons of records set there at nats a few years ago? It was a pretty weak year for d3 swimming and had little to do with the pool itself.

      Cheadle is obviously provoking everyone by trying to say that Hope’s streak in the 2 free relay will end this year. I am actually happy that he did because every year someone says it and gets proven wrong, making it a part of our tradition. I might be a little nervous if everyone was convinced that we would win again.

      Well its been fun thinking about swimming for a few minutes. Back to work….@#$%

    • #39961
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      So, you are saying it is a fast pool, when it has been shown that pool for optimal speed would have to be at least 7.5 ft deep. This pool doesn’t achieve that condition. It also has that annoying turn where the bottom rises and makes it harder to spot a turn.

    • #39962
      Stevo
      Member

      So, you are saying it is a fast pool, when it has been shown that pool for optimal speed would have to be at least 7.5 ft deep.

      You have data to support the optimal depth for the most speed is 7.5 feet. That’s funny to me. I guess when i swam i didn’t really think, “oh man this pool isn’t the optimal depth for the most speed”. IF HCAC was good enough for nationals it plenty good enough for MIAA’s.

      Another way to put it would be “not swimming his own race”

    • #39963
      swim5599
      Member

      I was just wondering why someone thought that be because Heyboer swims the IM’s that for some reason that would affect his 200 backstroke.

    • #39964
      silentp
      Member

      @Stevo wrote:

      IF HCAC was good enough for nationals it plenty good enough for MIAA’s.

      Another way to put it would be “not swimming his own race”

      Tell that to Coach Steen. He was pretty upset about how bad the pool was.

      It’s not an opinion here, it’s a fact that the pool is slow. Fast times can happen, but by the laws of physics, it’s a slow pool.

    • #39965
      Low Tide
      Member

      Both Heyboer and Ellis came out of high school as strong backstrokers… I think Heyboer actually had a decent time in the 200 back already, while Ellis had never really swam it. Because Ellis appeared to excel more in sprinting, and Heyboer was stronger in the 200/400 IM and 200 back than in the 100, the Hope guys assumed he would beat Ellis in the 200 back.

      No astounding lapses of logic… I thought Ellis would beat him, but Ellis ended up being a heck of a lot faster in the 200 back than I had hoped for.

    • #39966
      maverick1
      Member

      silentp is full of crap. the ncaa did a study on the hcac before hosting d3 nats there and determined it was the fastest pool in the world, actually going far enough to give the holland community a gold star for best bulkhead.

      i thought it was pretty common knowledge among swimmers that the magical number was somewhere around 8ft for pool depth……i guess that stevo hasn’t watched the olympics, but should take this chance to learn that by watching tv during the games, he can actually help support our lowly sport.

    • #39967
      swim5599
      Member

      Somebody made a statement that because Heyboer is an IMer that would somehow negatively affect his 200 backstroke. The guy swims a great 400 Im and trains for it that can only help his 200 backstroke, not hurt it

    • #39968
      Low Tide
      Member

      The minimum for Olympic pools is at least 2 meters, so about 6 1/2 feet… bare minimum.

    • #39969
      maverick1
      Member

      unless he trained exclusively for the 200back…..

    • #39970
      silentp
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      unless he trained exclusively for the 200back…..

      Ellis trains sprint, did last year, will this year

    • #39971
      iamdonovan
      Member

      Alright kids, here’s how the depth of a pool affects the “speed” of a pool.

      As you swim along, you create waves (if you didn’t know that, leave now). Those waves don’t just travel along the surface of the water, they spread out in three dimensions, which means that they’re going to reflect off the bottom of the pool. This reflection can either help or hinder the swimmer, and as it turns out, the depth of the pool has an effect on that. Too shallow, and the waves will reflect in a way that hinders the swimmer; too deep, and they’re not really helping you at all.

      Ever wonder why the fastest swimmers are put into the middle lanes of the heat? It’s because in the center of the pool, you won’t have as many waves reflecting off the sides of the pool – sucks for the kids in lanes 1 and 6 (or 1 and 8).

      Other factors in the “speed” of the pool are the circulation of the water and the lane lines. The big ol’ lane lines that we see in the Olympics are there to minimize the surface waves created by each swimmer from spreading out into the next lane. Ever swim in a pool without lane lines? Not always fun, especially when someone (or someones) is (are) swimming fly.

      Of course, this doesn’t explain why the optimal depth is right around 8 feet, but I’m guessing that a guy who designs pools for a living will have done the appropriate leg work:

      Click to access Make_That_Pool_Fast-Aug04Aqua.pdf

    • #39972
      Stevo
      Member

      I’m pretty sure as a swimmer you have no control over where meets are held.

      It’s not the world’s fastest pool, that is not what i’m advocating. I do think the winning time of the 200 FR will be faster than 1:23.65, even in the “slow” pool at HCAC. If the city of Kalamazoo had a nice aquatic facility, that hosted nationals, and other big meets you K boys would feel that same way the Hope guys do. It’s not IUPUI, or Minnesota but it’s a Division 3 league championship meet. If you wanted swim in the fastest pools ever go D1.

      Is that why the fast guys swim in the middle of the pool? No way!

    • #39973

      Does anyone know just how much waves effect speed? I knew that fast pools dissipate waves but I have never seen any hard science behind this. It is kind of like saying that being a vegetarian is better for the environment without knowing just how much. It is in fact, but you don’t know that for sure until you present some numbers to show for it.

      I also kind of forgot that the HCAC is so shallow at the bulkhead. That would slow you down, but by what factor?

    • #39974
      silentp
      Member

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      Does anyone know just how much waves effect speed? I knew that fast pools dissipate waves but I have never seen any hard science behind this. It is kind of like saying that being a vegetarian is better for the environment without knowing just how much. It is in fact, but you don’t know that for sure until you present some numbers to show for it.

      I also kind of forgot that the HCAC is so shallow at the bulkhead. That would slow you down, but by what factor?

      I can’t answer, but here is the data from the 200 FR and 50 free for NCAAs each of the last 4 years. Remember here, St. Louis and Holland are nearly identical, minus the rise in the wall before the bulkhead. The reason i picked these events, is they are most effected by waves because they create the most turbulence in the water. The 200 FR times are very telling of the difference in pools.

      200 FR

      07
      8th: 1:23.48
      NCAA 8th: 1:23.31

      06
      8th: 1:23.38
      NCAA 8th: 1:23.11

      05
      8th: 1:23.84
      NCAA 8th: 1:24.38

      04
      8th: 1:24.09
      NCAA 8th: 1:24.16

      50 free

      07
      8th Coming In: 20.70
      8th in Prelims: 20.69
      16th Coming In: 20.82
      16th in Prelims: 20.89

      06
      8th Coming In: 20.73
      8th in Prelims: 20.81
      16th Coming In: 20.94
      16th in Prelims: 20.92

      05
      8th Coming In: 20.87
      8th in Prelims: 21.01
      16th Coming In: 20.98
      16th in Prelims: 21.16

      04
      8th Coming In: 21.00
      8th in Prelims: 21.07
      16th Coming In: 21.18
      16th in Prelims: 21.26

    • #39975
      SwexasTim
      Member

      I think what stevo is trying to get across, and I agree w/ him, is like the HCAC or hate it, the winning 200 free relay will be under 1:23.65. There it is, simple enough.

      So to reiterate Hope will be under 1:23.65.

      Also silentp as good as those numbers are they are hugely skewed, D3 gets better and better so of course the times will be faster than in 04 and 05. But on a sidenote, I still agree w/ you, but I love the HCAC. Basically I’m in a glass case of emotion and desire a delicious but filling burrito.

    • #39976
      maverick1
      Member

      what about alma?

      i think the rec plex also had a rise before the turn but it was a bit different…..or maybe it was 2 T’s

    • #39977
      SwexasTim
      Member

      What are you asking mav?

      I don’t think it had a rise, but it was different somehow, it might have been the 2 T’s.

    • #39978
      maverick1
      Member

      i have absolutely no idea what you have over there, so just wondering……i wouldn’t instigate against one of the coaches, i know you guys work hard and such

    • #39979

      SilentP, did you read my post, analyze and answer, all in 8 minutes?? That takes talent.

    • #39980
      SwexasTim
      Member

      oh no wasn’t thinking that you were instigating, just wasn’t sure what you were asking. I would say we have a very similar pool to kzoo. 12 feet w/ the blocks and boards and 4 ft on the other.

    • #39981
      silentp
      Member

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      SilentP, did you read my post, analyze and answer, all in 8 minutes?? That takes talent.

      Ha, nope, I had done the analysis earlier when talking amongst friends and felt it fit, so I posted it. Hopefully it says at least something, although the actual degree to which it effects each swimmer would probably be different.

    • #39982
      Stevo
      Member

      It’s a hard comparison because I distinctly remember thinking to myself, “I’m glad i graduated when I did” because the sprint events nationwide had gotten quite a bit faster in 06 and 07.

      I see your points, but i still had some of my best collegiate swims at the aquatic center. Could i have swam faster at Minnesota, or IUPUI, probably but oh well.

      I hated St. Peters Rec Plex, it was really hard to judge those walls becasue the bulkhead didn’t reach all the way to the bottom of the pool. I had the same problem in HS at UofM’s pool. But that is more the swimmer than the pool.

    • #39983
      Milhouse
      Member

      You spoiled brats make me sick. “Mommy! Mommy! The pool isn’t deep enough and there are too many waves! I want a cookie!” When I swam, we had one league meet at Albion (maximum depth maybe 6 feet) and three league meets at Hope’s Dow pool..and there were no cookies! I don’t remember anyone ever bitching and complaining about waves and optimal depth back then (paper suits were another matter). Bottom line is everyone races against each other in the same pool, and the winner of the 200 free relay will be the team that swims the fastest from beginning to end. I’m Tim McCarver and I approve this message.

    • #39984
      silentp
      Member

      @Milhouse wrote:

      Bottom line is everyone races against each other in the same pool,

      Not for those trying to make Nationals.

      The pool is good enough for MIAAs, all I was saying is that it isn’t as fast as some other pools. It was also a bad choice for NCAAs, even though the city of Holland the people running the meet did a fantastic job (they still haven’t given out better gifts since that year, in my opinion).

    • #39985
      Stevo
      Member

      milhouse…did you walk to school each day barefoot, uphill, in the snow? Just kidding…i do agree with you.

      Silentp- no one in 2005 wanted to step up and host the national meet, and hope did. It was great to swim in my home pool for nationals but i know the d3 swimming world didn’t like it.

    • #39986
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      I was at work so iamdonovan beat me to the point of how depth effects the reace

    • #39987
      iamdonovan
      Member

      Insano,

      I’m not actually an aquatic engineer (though I do fill a mean hot tub), but I felt compelled to give a qualitative reason for “speed” in a pool. I posted the link to that article because I’m guessing that the guy who designed the pool for the ’04 Trials would have crunched the necessary numbers to figure out the optimal depth for the pool. Other factors that affect “speed” in a pool include the gutter system/water jets, width of lanes, and the lane lines themselves, though if you’re looking for hard numbers, well, I don’t have them.

      Stevo, the wave thing isn’t the only reason that the fast swimmers get to swim in the middle of the pool, but it certainly helps them out when you consider that many pools have water jets on the side walls, which means that swimmers in lanes 1 and 6 (or 1 and 8, in an 8 lane pool) are getting their waves bouncing back on them, plus the water jets, etc…

      Milhouse, be older.

    • #39988
      SwexasTim
      Member

      personally milhouse, I would have rather had it at the Dow then at the HCAC, so I don’t see your point?

    • #39989
      Derek
      Member

      To anybody who thinks that HCAC is actually a good pool:

      Seriously, are you trying to argue that physics don’t matter in the “speed” of a pool? Of course they do! I don’t know a damn thing about physics and I know that. Maybe stevo DOES have an emotional attachment to that pool, but I don’t and I think I’m in the majority with the REST OF THE WORLD when I say that.

      Maybe HCAC was a great place for Hope guys, but not for the rest of the nation. Yeah, Hope stepped up and hosted the meet when no one else would. That is a completely different issue.

      I’ve swam in some incredible pools including Federal Way, manyincredible pools in California (including Stanford, the Janet Evans pool, Santa Clara, Clovis, etc.), and most recently GA Tech (1996 Olympic pool). HCAC sucks compared to all of them. Your emotional attachment does not override physics.

    • #39990
      Rudy Shingle
      Member

      As some previous people have said we aren’t saying that it isn’t ok for miaa, we would just rather see it at jenison.

    • #39991

      Easy on the caps Ted Kaczynski.

      And what difference does it make? It sounds like you have an emotional attachment to all those other pools you mentioned.

      Awaiting fiery retort…

    • #39992
      Derek
      Member

      @Captain Insano wrote:

      Easy on the caps Ted Kaczynski.

      And what difference does it make? It sounds like you have an emotional attachment to all those other pools you mentioned.

      Awaiting fiery retort…

      No fiery retort necessary. You failed to make any argument at all.

    • #39993
      facenorth
      Member

      I would like to preface the following statement with under any circumstances I’d like to see my team swim as fast as they possibly can. However, I would think that any MIAA school should actually prefer a pool they are familiar with for the National Championships. Whether it’s in Holland or Alma, if you’re all familiar with it, if you know the pool, if you are less taxed as a result of a two hour car ride instead of a day of travel, because you can have more fans at the meet, teammates, parents, friends, whomever, isn’t that worth something? I guess I don’t see what the big deal is, back in ’05 there wasn’t another institution that stepped up and wanted to host. Is that the HAC’s fault? I guess there are a lot of worse facilities out there. Shouldn’t that have been an advantage to EVERYONE in the MIAA? And everyone that has swum in that facility at some point in their career? Is it the fastest pool in the world? No. Have we had slower pools host Nats this decade? Yes, in my opinion we have and we’ve had another equal to it (as the HCAC was modeled after one of them). I guess I just don’t see the point for jumping all over a community facility when no one wanted the meet that year. And for whatever it’s worth, once we’re there, we’re all there together and at tat point we all have to swim in it anyway. Yes, I would like to see people swim as fast as they possibly can but if those facilities aren’t available or the colleges that could host those meets don’t step forward and want to host those meets, why not have it in a pool we are familiar with and create our own competitive advantage in the MIAA? Shoot, we haven’t had a team top ten in the country in how many years on the men’s side? Nice work ladies!

    • #39994
      Derek
      Member

      Facenorth-

      You bring up some good points, and I think that for the most part people will be divided not by team, but by personal preference in reaction to what you just wrote.

      I have to admit that on the 5th page of this thread I may have forgotten that somebody said something bad about Hope for hosting that meet in ’05, but I’m pretty sure that nobody did. I’m pretty sure that we appreciated Hope’s willingness to host (and that they did an excellent job) but were disappointed that it couldn’t be a better pool.

      Which brings us back to the original issue. The pool isn’t fast.

    • #39995
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Alright, maybe I’m missing it. Y’all cry and bitch about how awful the HCAC is, where would you rather swim? If you think its so bad, call up your coach and have them host the meet somewhere else. As far as availibility for the MIAA is concerned its one of the best out there. Sure Jenison might be better, but should Calvin host every year? And don’t even dream about EGR.

      Boo Hoo all you want, HCAC is pretty frickin good pool. Its ridiculous that a facility like that is labeled bad. I just don’t see it. If you want to swim in one of the nations elite pools, go to where they are! And derek don’t compare it to those other pools, we aren’t saying its that good, just trying to show you guys its not as bad as you make it out to be.

      As far as nationals are concerned, anybody swim in Buffalo or go to that meet. You really want to tell me b/c that pool was all deep it was better than the HCAC or the rec plex? Not a chance. If you want to say its faster, fine, but I would much rather swim at the HCAC or the rec plex than a lot of other places. Plus once you are at nationals who gives a hoot, I can understand the argument that you want a fast pool to give you a better chance of making it, but once you are there everyone swims in the same pool. I would be more worried about deck space, fan space, and a proper amount of cool down area. Oh and possibley an awesome ready room, always more fun to have a room than a curtain, but I digress. To me those are the things that would matter when choosing a facility for nationals, well those and the option to have a waterslide πŸ˜€

      Personally, I’d take the HCAC as my school’s pool anyday, and I know the rest of you would too.

      ps How is WMU’s pool, I know they don’t have a team but I’ve never seen the pool, is it any good and could it hold a League meet? I can’t imagine its any good or someone would be talking about it or there would have been a meet there. Just curious.

    • #39996
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Actually Derek, I think the original issue is whether or not Kzoo can win the 200 free relay. I think thats how it started, then Cheadle asked Stevo for permission to post his opinion or something like that, then we got a science lesson, and now we are here. I think thats right, but who knows.

      So in an effort to spur the original topic, why has no one mentioned olivet in the 200 free relay, what are they going to go? If Kzoo can go a 23 mid-high I have to believe a new coach fresh off his manufacturing job at the sprint factory might be able to get OC in the mix.

    • #39997
      El Duderino
      Member

      When my sister was looking at Western, I remember them saying something about having an Olympic sized pool in the Rec complex. I’ve never actually seen the thing, and can only assume that the 33 meter “competition pool” they have is the one he was talking about. Unless he was a complete idiot and was referring to one of the plethora of kidney shaped pools you can find on the premises.

      So needless to say, its nothing to write home about.

    • #39998
      SwexasTim
      Member

      Though, it would be interesting to have MIAA’s in a kidney shaped pool, crooked lanes could make up for the shorter distance. We would have to move to push starts and the 1/2 meter diving….discuss.

    • #39999
      silentp
      Member

      @SwexasTim wrote:

      Though, it would be interesting to have MIAA’s in a kidney shaped pool, crooked lanes could make up for the shorter distance. We would have to move to push starts and the 1/2 meter diving….discuss.

      Push starts would heavily favor Espinosa… seriously, have you seen his starts?

    • #40000
      maverick1
      Member

      what about the jaffee start from his freshman year, that thing was just crazy…….and the kid did manage to lose about 2 seconds on the start to me at miaas and still beat me so i must say that there was totally some strategy behind it

    • #40001
      iamdonovan
      Member

      WMU’s pool is a piece of crap. First off, it’s a 6 lane, 33 1/3 yard pool, with a bulkhead. The bulkhead is worse than HCAC’s, there are no t’s on the bottom of the pool before the bulkhead (which means that they put a rubber mat on the floor where the t should be), and the blocks are crap, too. The only good thing about having our HS conference meet there was the deck space and warmdown area. Plus, it’s in the same building as Lawson Arena, and you could go sit in there and watch the hockey team practice before the meet started.

      Outside of that, it’s not even worth considering, unless the only other option is one of the 25-yard pools that the schools have.

    • #40002
      Low Tide
      Member

      I swam age group swimming at Western’s pool for years. 33 meters divided by a rusted out bulk head that wobbles as you walk on it. Pretty crappy pool by pretty much any standards, though the stands are decent.

      The one nice thing about that pool, though: During long sets you could literally swim underneath and inside the bulkhead and breath in about 2 1/2 inches of air at the surface… coaches would be none the wiser.

    • #40003
      DonCheadle
      Member

      @Low Tide wrote:

      The one nice thing about that pool, though: During long sets you could literally swim underneath and inside the bulkhead and breath in about 2 1/2 inches of air at the surface… coaches would be none the wiser.

      The pool I swam at most often in my youth had the same type of bulkhead. Guys would go under there, I did it once. When I got underthere, there was so much mildew I freaked out. And I don’t mean just a little bit. Appearantly I started screaming about the lambs being slaughtered. A couple of older guys who went under with me flipped out when I started yelling and rushed back to the main pool. The coach saw them and immediately tried to figure out what was going on. The coach stuck his head by the screens and called out for me. It took him ten minutes to convince me to come out, and because I was so hysterical I did not get in any trouble. This was two days after my parents told me they were getting a divorce.

      By the way, this story is completely fabricated.

    • #40004
      Bocephus
      Member

      @Derek wrote:

      HCAC sucks compared to all of them. Your emotional attachment does not override physics.

      I agree. Does anybody have any clue as to why the middle of the pool has that hump in the middle?

    • #40005
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      Why the hell are a bunch of whiney alumni complaining about a pool that THEY do not even have to swim in?!?!?!?!?!?!!?!?!??!!?!?! I just swam in the pool and no one at Hope even complained about it.

      The point is dont get me started, dont even get me started.

    • #40006
      El Duderino
      Member

      Why use 12 question marks and 13 exclamation points when one question mark and one exclamation point would just as easily do the trick?

    • #40007
      maverick1
      Member

      ok, we seriously need to define what a complaint is versus a statement.

      hcac is not the fastest pool in west michigan: statement

      i wish i would have had a chance to swim the 200 breast at egr instead of hcac because the shallow turn is just waaaaaaay to tricky: complaint

      i hope that this won’t get you started lane2allstar, but nobody is complaining about the pool and for once people are making statements based on facts on this forum. (yes, homepool advantage exists……yes hcac is very nice for a community pool…..no, it is not as geared towards racing as the university of minnesota)

      which brings me to another point, for those of you who have swam at u of minn’s pool, i think every complex needs a super heated diving well….there’s nothing better than hiding from your coach after a bad swim, in a giant hot tub.

    • #40008
      iamdonovan
      Member

      I suspect that the whiny alumni are whinging about the pool because it’s much better than doing work.

      LoLz! I didn’t even have to use multiple exclamation points to make that post! WTf?!?!?!

    • #40009
      Monkey Boy
      Member

      The point is dont get me started, dont even get me started.

      This ought to be entertaining. By all means, commence…

      I just finished swimming in a well after being thrown in by some pranksters last night on Halloween. Seven hours with only the echoes of my screams for company. I didn’t complain (I get even), but I wouldn’t necessarily suggest that well for the next nationals competition either.

    • #40010
      silentp
      Member

      @maverick wrote:

      which brings me to another point, for those of you who have swam at u of minn’s pool, i think every complex needs a super heated diving well….there’s nothing better than hiding from your coach after a bad swim, in a giant hot tub.

      Even better, it’s the greatest place in the world to do your warmup. Seriously, no one wants to jump in the freezing cold pool at 8AM for warmups, but a super heated diving well that’s 25 yards across anyway, why not?

    • #40011
      El Duderino
      Member

      Also, if you need to take a leak, its much less noticeable in a super heated pool. So you have that going for ya.

    • #40012
      ajp
      Member

      But all these whiney alumni DO have to swim in it at the third annual alumni meet.

    • #40013
      quacker
      Member

      As an alumnus I just want the meet to be at a pool that has enough spectator space so I can come late and is in close proximity to restaurants/bars that aren’t Applebee’s.

      In terms of how it affects the swimmers, I envision it’s just time to swim and not time to worry about pools – something like coach Patnott telling his swimmers: “Four guys on the relay functioning as one single unit: team, team, team – no one more important that the other.” Then coach Taber comes in with a tape measure and says “How far?” “25 yards,” Koji exclaims. Taber slyly comes back, “25 yards! I think you’ll find this exact same measurements as our pool back in Olivet.” Coach Hamstra chimes in “Let’s win this meet for all the small schools that never had a chance to get here.”

      With that said, I’m looking forward to Calvin getting to host with its new pool. I’m sure it’ll have plenty seating for us alumni, is really close to downtown GR, and will hopefully be fast. I can just see Krone, accepting his third MVP award, saying “I can’t take credit for this award. I really have to give it to the pool – it really put me over the edge.”

    • #40014
      silentp
      Member

      @quacker wrote:

      In terms of how it affects the swimmers, I envision it’s just time to swim and not time to worry about pools – something like coach Patnott telling his swimmers: “Four guys on the relay functioning as one single unit: team, team, team – no one more important that the other.” Then coach Taber comes in with a tape measure and says “How far?” “25 yards,” Koji exclaims. Taber slyly comes back, “25 yards! I think you’ll find this exact same measurements as our pool back in Olivet.” Coach Hamstra chimes in “Let’s win this meet for all the small schools that never had a chance to get here.”

      You should make that into a movie, I think people would really like it. Swimming isn’t very popular though, so you might consider changing the sport to basketball.

      Also, I like Applebees, except those stupid new commercials featuring that annoying “comedian” as the voice of an animated apple.

    • #40015

      At some point in the movie we will see Coach Kathy telling the K 200 free relay, “It doesn’t matter if Hope beats us by a full second in the 200 free relay, in my book we’re all winners.”

    • #40016
      maverick1
      Member

      that was just a ridiculous post…..

    • #40017

      I retract my post due to redundancy

    • #40018
      Duck
      Member

      “It doesn’t matter if Hope beats us by a full second in the 200 free relay, in my book we’re all winners.”, Coach Kathy says while laughing as Kzoo celebrates their 26th MIAA Championship. Meanwhile, half of the Hope College Mens’ Team are still thumping their chests, flexing to their reflections and head-butting each other over their single win in a relay (one has earned all his peers’ envy by managing to urinate in his own mouth), while the other half of the team is scratching their heads, busy trying to count up Hope’s championships, despite it being possible to do so with the help of both hands.

      As the credits roll, we see a small, horribly disfigured child slowly climb up the three meter…

    • #40019
      iamdonovan
      Member

      I would pay to see that movie. Hell, I’d pay to see that movie get made.

    • #40020
      SwexasTim
      Member

      I love a good piece of fiction every now and again but may I suggest instead of the child we just see the owl perched on the 3 meter and possible just before the screen goes black, it blinks or maybe slowly cracks an all-knowing smile.

    • #40021
      Stevo
      Member

      I would assimilate K swimming with Notre Dame football. Storied history that has fallen from the top to a level no one would ever think they would have fallen (placing third at MIAA). When was the last year Hope wasn’t 1st or 2nd at league meet? Then getting a couple very solid recruiting classes but still not quite back in the hunt. But we can always talk about those past 26 MIAA championships.

      I’ll keep thumping my chest until someone other than hope in the history of the MIAA wins the 200 free relay.

    • #40022
      Low Tide
      Member

      I’m sorry Stevo, the thumping can stop — 1988.

    • #40023
      iamdonovan
      Member

      Believe it or not, Kalamazoo was 3rd in the MIAA in 1993 or 1994; somewhere in the early nineties to Albion. So I think that you meant that the unimaginable low to which K fell was actually in 2006, when they were 2 points away from 5th place.

      OMG!!!11 LoLz I still didn’t need the exclamation thingies!!!

    • #40024
      El Duderino
      Member

      but Kathy never gave a press conference after getting the Kalamazoo job saying that we would have a “decided schematic advantage” every time we jumped into the pool. she also never lost a lawsuit against a plastic surgeon for a botched gastric bypass.

    • #40025
      Low Tide
      Member

      Believe it or not, Kalamazoo was 3rd in the MIAA in 1993 or 1994; somewhere in the early nineties to Albion. So I think that you meant that the unimaginable low to which K fell was actually in 2006, when they were 2 points away from 5th place.

      I’m willing to cut that 2006 team some slack… just like I expect Hope to take a dip when Patnott retires.

      Now as for the 1994 third place team? I place the fault entirely on Miller and Milhouse for that one. No excuses!

    • #40026
      Lane2AllStar
      Member

      I’m willing to cut that 2006 team some slack… just like I expect Hope to take a dip when Patnott retires.

      Wait you guys got me started…. DIP?

    • #40027
      maverick1
      Member

      ?!??!?!?!?!?!??!?!?

    • #40028
      El Duderino
      Member

      @Lane2AllStar wrote:

      Wait you guys got me started…. DIP?

      Dip, v. –
      1) to sink or drop down: The sun dipped below the horizon.
      2) to incline or slope downward: At that point the road dips into a valley.
      3) to decrease slightly or temporarily: Stock-market prices often dip on Fridays
      4) South Midland or Southern States to take snuff.

      I think any of those could apply.

    • #40029
      quacker
      Member

      @Duck wrote:

      As the credits roll, we see a small, horribly disfigured child slowly climb up the three meter…

      Is that the (in)famous lil’ K bastard that we hear so much about but that we don’t actually know what it means?

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