Championship Qualification Procedures

What do you predict for nationals? Who is going to shine, who is not?

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gcc62
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by gcc62 » Sat Feb 05, 2011 7:23 pm

mxskier wrote:I don't think this really could ever, ever, happen. No school has only 4 guys who flat start are like 20.9 and can only swim that event for a B-cut. Cause relay, that could be amazing, in the realm of 1:22.5 or so which will probably go, but the odds are SO remote. Most teams rely on a single HUGE swimmer and another big supporter. Last year, my team sent the 10th 4FR: it took a B-cut to lead off, 2 mid-46, and only way they got in was a 44.7 anchor. You're not going to see a situation where the team has 4 guys who, either flat start, or relay, are all say 45.7.

Again, mathematically, it is possible, but SO unlikely it's not worth worrying about. What this will let schools do, however, is bring in relays where there is that 1 big gun, but no huge supporter, to help pull in the 3 other guys.
I can name a school who did it last year in two relays with six total women, none of whom qualified on their own last year. See if you can guess who. In 2009 the same school had two guy studs pull in 9 relay only swimmers. I can name a different school in 2009 in the women's meet who had a relay with four relay only swimmers - and that was a big reason why the relay line only made it 8 or 9 that year. You're assuming it's going to take a 1:22.5 for the men. Last year 1:23.5 would have made it. That's four guys who flat start 21.4 less good relay exchanges. If two were 21.0 flat they wouldn't even have B cuts and give their teammates a nice cushion.
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mxskier
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by mxskier » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:12 pm

Haha, ok, you got me. One point for you. :D

openwater
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by openwater » Sat Feb 05, 2011 8:54 pm

Time for some facts. I did this calculation with last year's meet entries and last year's individual qualifier caps. If the men had taken 16 relays here is what would have happened.
[1] 200 MR would have added 6 relays (Depauw +2, Hopkins +1, Middlebury +1, Emory +1, Hope +1, Keene St. +3) for +9 swimmers.
[2] 200 FR add 6 relays (New Jersey +0, St. Thomas +0, Hopkins +2, Connecticut +2, Emory +3, Carthage +4) for +11 swimmers.
[3] 400 MR add 6 relays (Hopkins +2, Emory +0, Amherst +1, Wabash +3, Williams +1, Redlands +1) for +8 swimmers.
[4] 800 FR add 5 relays (Depauw +1, CMU +2, Stevens +1, UC Santa Cruz +2, Hope +2) for +8 swimmers.
[5] 400 FR add 6 relays (Wash U +1, New Jersey +0, Claremont +1, Carthage +1, La Crosse +0, Hopkins +0) for +3 swimmers.

So this would have added 39 swimmers to the meet.
Big winners would have been Hopkins +5, Carthage +5 and Emory +4. Especially since Carthage actually only sent 2 individuals while Hopkins had 4 entries last year. Emory had 12 entries last year so could have added all 4 without hitting the 18 swimmer cap.

For the women:
[1] 200 MR add 4 relays (Amherst +1, Mary Washington +0, Carthage +1, St. Thomas +2) for +4 swimmers
[2] 200 FR add 4 relays (Centre +2, Calvin +2, Depauw +3, Williams +1) for +8 swimmers
[3] 400 MR add 4 relays (St Thomas +0, Carleton +3, Carthage +0, Depauw +2) for +5 swimmers
[4] 800 MR add 4 relays (Redlands +1, Chicago +2, Westminster +3, Springfield +4) for +10 swimmers
[5] 400 FR add 3 relays (Amherst +2, Mary Washington +1, Stevens Pt. +0) for +3 swimmers

So the women would have added 30 swimmers to the meet.
Springfield had no swimmers at the meet so +4 would look pretty good to them. Depauw's +5 along with their men's team addition of +3 would have been a huge change to the 2 women and 4 men that actually went last year.

Oh and on the related subject: Emory had 18 women at the meet last year, Williams 15, Kenyon 14 and Denison 13.
For the men Kenyon had 18, Denison 15, Emory 12.
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mxskier
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by mxskier » Sat Feb 05, 2011 9:07 pm

Were all of those 5 hopkins kids different? Same for the other teams? If yes, then I can see them reaching the cap issue, but if not, then I think they're fine. They (the NCAA) knows what they're doing.

openwater
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by openwater » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:00 am

Yes of course, I only counted new names as they joined the list. In Hopkins case you are seeing the result of having John Thomas swim backstroke on your medley relays. Exactly the same effect as GCC having 9 guys draft off of 2 of the top 3 sprinters in the nation a couple of years ago.

One aspect not discussed here is that the relay time belongs to the school not the 4 individuals who swam it. While the default expectation is that a school would want to take as many swimmers as possible to Nationals, I can think of reasons not to bring some of the swimmers who helped create the qualifying time. What if they have no B-cuts? What if they are on the 800 and thus there is no morning swim and you have a more reliable performer who is just about as fast - if this relay is why the individual is at the meet they have to swim it otherwise the NCAA doesn't pay for their trip. What if an individual is a poisonous jerk with attitude problems that are going to mess with your teams psyche all 3 days at Nats and you as a coach don't want that distraction? What if a swimmer just doesn't want for whatever reason to go to Nats? I know of examples of all these that potentially can decrease the number of swimmers that might actually go to Nats from a school - whether or not we are talking about this relay question. But I think some of these reasons are more likely to apply to some of the less accomplished swimmers making up the 15th and 16th fastest relay.
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mxskier
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by mxskier » Sun Feb 06, 2011 9:13 am

Actually, doesn't the relay belong to both the school AND the swimmers? Because I thought the "scary" thing to do would be to substitute the relay in the morning, get DQd, then because the rightful swimmers didn't swim the event that got them to nationals, then some other "bad" thing would happen? Mixing around the relay at the meet is one thing, but to leave swimmers home that qualified on a selected relay is against the rules (and spirit of the sport) I believe.

sagehen1
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by sagehen1 » Sun Feb 06, 2011 1:11 pm

That is correct I believe - you have to qualify your relay with your fastest four and bring that team to Nationals (unless one of the athletes gets sick or something).

nescac
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by nescac » Sun Feb 06, 2011 3:48 pm

That means that women would have been 2 under cap last year and men would have been 3 over-- a negligible change to individual qualifiers. Sounds like line 19 or so will apply again this year.

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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by DonCheadle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:47 pm

sagehen1 wrote:That is correct I believe - you have to qualify your relay with your fastest four and bring that team to Nationals (unless one of the athletes gets sick or something).
You guys are a little confused on this:

You can sub out any relay leg you would like. BUT

1) The SUB must be someone who is in the meet already.
2) If you get subbed out of a relay as a relay only swimmer and that was your ONLY qualifier, you cannot compete in the rest of the meet.

Perhaps an example is best:

Last year Kzoo's 200 medley dropped their flyer. They filled the spot with the flyer from their 400 medley (who was already in the meet). The subbed swimmer did not get to compete at the meet (or get to travel with the team for that matter).

One other scenario that is perfectly legal: right now Kzoo's 400 medley flyer is Benmark. It might be Lodewyk at the meet. That is perfectly fine becaue Benmark is also part of Kzoo's qualfying 800 free relay. IE Benmark is a relay only swimmer, but qualfied on two relays. He only has to swim one of those relays to be elgible for the rest of the meet. Lodewyk is at the meet because of the 200 medley. As long as he swims the medley, he can be the sub for the 400 medley.

Specifically thinking about the 800 free relay: A 20.7 / 46.2/ 1:42.5 sprinter might swim 4 relays at the conference meet but 5 at Nationals because he didn't pick up the B cut in the 800. I think this scenario may playout a couple of times this year with the addition of the extra relay. So I predict one or two relay only swimmers get dropped from their teams...
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mxskier
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by mxskier » Mon Feb 07, 2011 4:58 pm

DonCheadle wrote:Last year Kzoo's 200 medley dropped their flyer. They filled the spot with the flyer from their 400 medley (who was already in the meet). The subbed swimmer did not get to compete at the meet (or get to travel with the team for that matter).
Got it. With the above, I'm assuming that the 200MR qualified, but they wanted to use a different swimmer at the meet. If that's true, then dropping the swimmer who qualified to take another guys has to be the biggest dick move ever (unless there are extenuating circumstances, like family stuff or whatever...). Kalamazoo was going to qualify at night anyway, and could have swam the 400MR guy at night if they wanted. But bring the kid to the meet. He deserves it. Subbing him at the meet, without even giving him a chance to go and compete/cheer is a huge middle finger at the kid.

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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by DonCheadle » Mon Feb 07, 2011 5:11 pm

mxskier wrote: Got it. With the above, I'm assuming that the 200MR qualified, but they wanted to use a different swimmer at the meet. If that's true, then dropping the swimmer who qualified to take another guys has to be the biggest dick move ever (unless there are extenuating circumstances, like family stuff or whatever...). Kalamazoo was going to qualify at night anyway, and could have swam the 400MR guy at night if they wanted. But bring the kid to the meet. He deserves it. Subbing him at the meet, without even giving him a chance to go and compete/cheer is a huge middle finger at the kid.
Actually it went down something like this:

The other 3 legs on the relay were so good that they could have had just about ANYONE on the relay and make it to nationals. So they took a shot on a wildcard at their conference meet. The guy split a 23.2. The swimmer who was on the 400 medley had a faster first 50 than that. I don't think that there were any hard feelings.
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mxskier
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by mxskier » Mon Feb 07, 2011 7:29 pm

Maybe there were no hard feelings, but Kalamazoo came nowhere near close to the 18 person cap, and the kid was a senior, who (now I'm not going through the history, but if he split 23.2) had likely never been to nationals to swim. It would have been nice to let him to and swim, or just go to the meet and be there with his teammates. That's all I'm saying.

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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by ScotsFan » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:03 am

Mr. Cheadle, you can swim FIVE relays at the National meet?

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N Dynamite
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by N Dynamite » Tue Feb 08, 2011 7:16 am

ScotsFan wrote:Mr. Cheadle, you can swim FIVE relays at the National meet?
Yes. Cheadle is correct - it happens all the time. You are permitted 7 events, no more than 3 individuals just like at conference championships. The difference is, at conference you typically need your top person to swim individual events to maximize points. At NCAAs your top person might not score three individual events so they might be more beneficial to team success being on all five relays. If you only have one relay make the meet those four people could (and usually do) swim all 5.

Here's another scenario: John Doe gets B cuts in th 50, 100, and 200 free and is invited in the 50. He swam, those events at conference because it was the best way to win conference but he's actually a better in the fly than 100 or 200 free. He has to swim the 50 (that's what got him to the meet). He can swim the 100 fly if he wants plus all five relays (assuming at least 3 other guys got invited). You only have to swim an event you were invited in. If you're relay only you can swim up to three ind events you got B cuts in. If you got invited as an ind you can swim up to three ind events as long as one of them was the one you got invited in plus any relays you have enough people to fill.
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Re: Championship Qualification Procedures

Post by DonCheadle » Tue Feb 08, 2011 10:22 am

ScotsFan wrote:Mr. Cheadle, you can swim FIVE relays at the National meet?
happens all the time. The swimmer of the meet even did it once.
Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!

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