NCAC 2014

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Paiz
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by Paiz » Sat Feb 15, 2014 10:44 pm

...and Denison wins again. Because of divers. Again. Wonder if they'll try to bring all six to NCAAs so they can get points where Kenyon can't block them. Clearly a case of...if you can't out-swim them, try to out maneuver them. Parini should have been a general.

On a more fun-facts type note - a record set at the beginning of the year in the 2012-13 season in a dual meet withstood the NCAC championship. Fascinating.

swimmerdad
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by swimmerdad » Sun Feb 16, 2014 12:07 am

Last time I checked the competition was the "swimming AND diving" championships. For the record, Kenyon also had divers at the meet ... both men and women. In fact, Kenyon's women diver won both boards. In addition, if you choose to score divers at the meet you lose 1 swimmer for each 3 divers entered. Kenyon chose to score 3 men divers and 17 swimmers while Denison scored 6 divers and 16 swimmers. So of course Kenyon scored more swimming points as they had 3 more splashes in the meet.

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Paiz
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by Paiz » Sun Feb 16, 2014 9:58 am

I'm not debating the truth of the matter. I'm wondering what the future holds. Since the Kenyon streak at NCAAs ended, Kenyonites have been groaning about divers. It's a depth issue, and one which Parini - as a master strategist - has cleverly taken advantage of.

Also...Kenyon had two male divers in the meet, as opposed to three, so even if they'd both scored significantly higher than they had, the team was still 1/3 short. Same for the Ladies. And while Maria Zarka is a fantastic diver, winning an event is almost negligible in a championship format, where depth - ie, the number of bodies - in the top final wins/loses. Zarka was the only diver for the Ladies in the top final with a 10 point differential swinging towards Denison; unless two of Big Red's divers had disqualified and the third had finished at the bottom of the pile - well, the song was sung before the race began.

So back to that master strategy. NCAAs is around the corner, and I'm wondering how many of Denison's divers will be coming to the Big Meet. Dignan certainly - no one can argue that the guy has talent, breaking NCAA records at conference. Ben Lewis, probably - he won one of the boards (one meter?) last year. Kenyon won't qualify divers for the meet on the men's side (almost certainly). So, is Parini's game going to be bringing a diver-heavy team to NCAAs, in an attempt to go 1-6 again against (what I assume I can say fairly) is significantly better competition than they faced at NCACs? Or will he be bringing Lewis, Dignan and X, along with as many swimmers as qualify?

It's a little less of a question on the women's side. I think the swimming/diving entries were a little more equally matched with representation from each side. So - time to warm up those stop watches and score cards for the National Meet!

BigRed Parent
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by BigRed Parent » Sun Feb 16, 2014 11:06 am

The real question at NCAA's will be how many Swimmers from Kenyon and Denison have qualifying times. On the Men's side, I don't think either Team has brought the Maximum of 18/0; 17/3; or 16/6 the past few years (since 2010). I know Denison was close to 18 Women in 2011, but not sure about 2012 or 2013. If memory serves, the only Team leaving anyone at home the past few years has been Emory's Women. They tend to have multiple qualifiers in the individual events, whereas Kenyon and Denison had kids get to the NCAA Meet who only qualified in one Individual event. Those individual qualifiers get to swim 2 additional individual events, even if they don't have a B Cut. Relay Only qualifiers need a B Cut to swim individual events. Regardless, very few of those swimmers make Top 16.

The Divers will need to make it through the Regional Qualifying process (same as D1 and D2) which started last year. I have no idea how many Kenyon or Denison divers will make Nationals, but I doubt it will be more than 3 per Team. Even if 4+ make it, the Coach will need 17 swimming qualifiers before they have to make a decision on Divers vs. Swimmers. The other change made last year was that Teams have to submit their 18 athletes before they know who makes the cut. In years past Teams could submit everyone with a B Cut and then scratch down to their final roster. Should be interesting.

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Paiz
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by Paiz » Sun Feb 16, 2014 8:23 pm

BigRed Parent - can you illuminate anything more about the diving qualifications? I really don't quite understand exactly how it works. I know there are qualification scores to get to the Regional meet, but I wasn't clear if there's a score AT the Regional meet that qualifies an athlete for the NCAA meet or if it comes down to top placing(s).

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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by NCACDork » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:15 am

Paiz wrote:I'm not debating the truth of the matter. I'm wondering what the future holds. Since the Kenyon streak at NCAAs ended, Kenyonites have been groaning about divers. It's a depth issue, and one which Parini - as a master strategist - has cleverly taken advantage of.
I don't know that following a rule/format that has been around for years is indicative of being a master strategist. I also believe that the SECOND time Denison won nationals, they would have done so without diving. So, let's give credit where it's due. Just because Kenyon alums complain about diving... doesn't really mean much.

From a strategy perspective, I would think that IF Denison were to qualify 18, there would probably be 1 or 2 who have very little chance of scoring at the meet. If you can sub 3 divers who have a chance to score (I am talking 4-6, versus 1-3 who will almost certainly score for Denison), I don't see why you wouldn't take advantage of that. Even in some of the deepest Kenyon teams, there were usually a couple guys who would score between zero and ten points at the meet. For Denison, it also shows that Diving is a priority, which has to help with recruiting.

For Kenyon, let's remember where the no diving culture comes from (in part): Back at Ernst, pool space was very limited, so when divers needed to take away 2 lanes it was a huge inconvenience for the team. The new facilities at both Kenyon and Denison obviously make it easier to recruit, with less conflict of interest between swimming/diving. Kenyon will want to get on board with diving if it wants to have a shot at winning every year. Without it, things will be much tougher in the coming years.

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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by a dude » Mon Feb 17, 2014 10:42 am

Seriously, a master strategist for using diving? There are many, many programs built with using some divers in mind. It's not like Parini discovered some magical, foolproof strategy that had never been discovered before, exploiting a long forgotten loophole in the legal jargon of the NCAA handbook. Indiana University immediately springs to mind as using a similar conference strategy, or Trinity University down in the SCAC. The commendations should go to the University for putting forth the resources to build up diving and hiring a good coach, which Parini was probably a part of so way to go.

And let's be honest, there are no good arguments for including diving with swimming other than "It's called swimming AND diving!" which isn't really an argument at all. It's the swimming equivalent of opponents of gay marriage saying "It's Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve!" There's also the classic "they both use swimming pools", which I suppose is slightly more legitimate. It's a subjective sport paired with an objective sport just because they both compete in water. Let's go ahead and throw water polo and synchronized swimming in the mix, if that's the criteria that must be met. If you expand the idea to go with any body of water in any state, we can have figure skating and hockey count too, since skating rinks are just frozen pools.

BigRed Parent
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by BigRed Parent » Tue Feb 25, 2014 1:38 pm

In response to the Diving Qualification question:

From the Pre-Championship Manual

Selection of Divers. Each regional diving meet will be allocated a fixed number of qualifiers to ensure equitable access
opportunities. This number will be determined by the number of divers who submit a Declaration to Compete form and actually
compete in a given region. The number of divers competing at each region will be divided by the total number of divers who
submitted Declaration to Compete forms, multiplied by 24, to determine the ratio for assigned qualification spots. Regardless
of ratios, no region will have less than two men and two women qualifiers
.

The qualification allocation shall be posted on the NCAA website by Wednesday before the regional diving qualification meet. Note: This number is subject to change, if the actual number of divers competing at any regional diving qualification meet were to be different than the number that initially submitted Declaration to Compete forms. The qualifiers to the national championships will be assigned by alternating between the day one highest finisher and the day two highest finisher, considering if the next highest finisher already is invited, that diver will be skipped. This ensures equal consideration is given to both boards. However, every year the event order shall be rotated to not favor
one board in a given region over time.


Diving regional host sites. The following are the four regional diving sites selected for 2014:

Region 1 (Central) Denison University, Granville, Ohio
Region 2 (Midwest/South/West) Grinnell College, Grinnell, Iowa
Region 3 (Northeast/North) Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, New York
Region 4 (Northeast/South) Rochester Institute of Technology, Rochester, New York

Sooo.. Depending on how many compete at each Region, a mInimum of 2 Men and 2 Women will qualify from each Diving Site. Theoretically, you could have 4 each at 3 Sites and then 12 at the final site, but unlikely. Best to assume that each Regional will send 6 divers to Indy.

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Paiz
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Re: NCAC 2014

Post by Paiz » Thu Feb 27, 2014 2:54 pm

Thanks for that info, BigRed Parent. Interesting how the selection process for diving is so much less cut and dry than the one for swimming.

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