Todhunter vs Wilson

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Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby openwater » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:01 am

How does Todhunter (3 wins, resetting her own records in 2 events) deserve swimmer of the meet over Wilson (3 wins, 2 more impressive records)? Because she is the sophomore? Because she was overshadowed last year by Horvat's 3 records and thus did not win then? Because the voting was done before the mile was swum?
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby swimfan56 » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:11 am

Isn't TodHunter also a bigger part of the relay swims?
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby openwater » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:35 am

Well they both swam 4 relays and obviously Logan's fly legs on the medleys are a bigger apparent difference maker than Caroline's free legs. However Williams also has the 2nd best flyer in Patchen. Replace Logan by Bonnie on the 2 medley relays and Williams scores about 8 fewer points total while replacing Wilson's 1:49 anchor on the 800 with a 'normal' 1:52 drops Williams from 3rd to 7th - also 8 points.

So I see it as pretty much a toss up.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby LordJeffFree » Mon Mar 22, 2010 9:50 am

Nothing against Wilson's swims, but Todhunter's records are far more impressive in relation to swimming as a whole in the country. Her 100 fly would have made consols at D1 NCAAs while Wilson's times would not be close to scoring at a D1 level. I think its a pretty clear case for Todhunter as swimmer of the meet.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby FranklinPearce » Mon Mar 22, 2010 10:07 am

LordJeffFree wrote:Nothing against Wilson's swims, but Todhunter's records are far more impressive in relation to swimming as a whole in the country. Her 100 fly would have made consols at D1 NCAAs while Wilson's times would not be close to scoring at a D1 level. I think its a pretty clear case for Todhunter as swimmer of the meet.


Agreed.

What doesn't make sense to me is how Kenyon men can win by 424 points (scoring more points than 2nd & 3rd place combined) and not get coach of the meet over the 4th place team. Not that I don't think Kalamazoo did great, but they finished 4th.

Coach of the meet shouldn't have anything to do with playing favorites or a most improved award. If a team gets within 100 of Kenyon, then it might make sense to give it to them.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby silentp » Mon Mar 22, 2010 11:18 am

FranklinPearce wrote:
LordJeffFree wrote:Nothing against Wilson's swims, but Todhunter's records are far more impressive in relation to swimming as a whole in the country. Her 100 fly would have made consols at D1 NCAAs while Wilson's times would not be close to scoring at a D1 level. I think its a pretty clear case for Todhunter as swimmer of the meet.


Agreed.

What doesn't make sense to me is how Kenyon men can win by 424 points (scoring more points than 2nd & 3rd place combined) and not get coach of the meet over the 4th place team. Not that I don't think Kalamazoo did great, but they finished 4th.

Coach of the meet shouldn't have anything to do with playing favorites or a most improved award. If a team gets within 100 of Kenyon, then it might make sense to give it to them.


While I don't disagree that Steen was certainly deserving, by this logic, he would have won the last 31 Coach of the Year awards in a row (minus his sabbatical). Again, he's deserving, but I'm not sure we want this.

Also, Williams finished 3rd (K would have been 2nd without a false start; something a bit out of the hands of the coach) so Kuster, by this logic, should not have won the award either.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby openwater » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:03 pm

I'll wager that any coach on the deck last week in MSP would have won the men's championship with the athletes that Kenyon brought to the meet. The sustained excellence, team expectations, and senior leadership (coupled with great recruits) practically guarantees this. Steen clearly deserves a lifetime achievement award - hell they should call the coach of the year award the 'Jim Steen Trophy' but as silentP says it would be silly to give the award to the same guy every year. With this as your playing field, I believe that the award should go to the coach/team that has the biggest/most impressive incremental change from the previous year - especially if it involves a top 5 finish for the first time in school history.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby FranklinPearce » Mon Mar 22, 2010 12:18 pm

openwater wrote:I'll wager that any coach on the deck last week in MSP would have won the men's championship with the athletes that Kenyon brought to the meet. The sustained excellence, team expectations, and senior leadership (coupled with great recruits) practically guarantees this. Steen clearly deserves a lifetime achievement award - hell they should call the coach of the year award the 'Jim Steen Trophy' but as silentP says it would be silly to give the award to the same guy every year. With this as your playing field, I believe that the award should go to the coach/team that has the biggest/most impressive incremental change from the previous year - especially if it involves a top 5 finish for the first time in school history.


What is silly is that the voting coaches have turned the award into a "most improved." It is not a most improved award.

Do you not give a swimmer on your team the MVP award each year if they were by far the best swimmer all 4 years? Or do you switch it up every year to make someone else feel good about themselves, because giving it to the same person is just not fair to everyone else?

The award is for the coach of the year. Recruiting, sustained excellence, team expectations, senior leadership, and performance at the meet are products of the coach. They crushed everyone this year and have for the past 30+ years. So yes, he should have been coach of the meet for all of those years.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby nemesis enforcer » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:00 pm

i agree. while it may be lame to have steen win coach of the year every year, it would fit w/ the idea of the award. you can't say that it is silly to give to it him each time b/c of the competitors he brings and the fact the they win every year. Winning streaks and expecting kenyon men to win each time is intangible so you can't put that into rules.

"since the NCAA recognizes kenyon's superiority, it fully expects them to win each year so Jim Steen or any Kenyon assistant coach is ineligible to win Coach of the Year honors "
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby screeeeeeeeech » Mon Mar 22, 2010 1:32 pm

I don't understand why a "most improved award" is a bad thing here. Isn't that what coaching is about? Improving your swimmers? If that's the logic, then Kzoo's coach is even more deserving of coach of the year. Her team did not show up at the meet last year and she made the necessary changes/adjustments/improvements. Steen's team would've won this meet without a coach. They didn't even have to contest relays to win the meet. He is clearly a great coach, but it's hard to see how he should be coach of the year every single year.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby Sir Carl » Mon Mar 22, 2010 2:38 pm

Pearce, the award you seem to be describing is the team championship award, they give plaques for that, I'm sure Steen could keep a few of those in his office if he doesn't already.

What's the point in having a separate award for coach of the year if it just goes to the winner of the meet every year? Steen has certainly deserved the award many times in the past, and has won it plenty of times as well. I can also see a very good argument why he should have won this year as well, absolutely crushing the competition and setting 4 ridiculous relay records. But when other teams put together great performances, even if they don't come close to Kenyon's final score, their coaches deserve some recognition as well.

Also, how does a thread in the Women's forum get turned into arguing about the Men's coach of the year award this quickly?

Congrats to Toddhunter (and Wilson too).
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby FranklinPearce » Mon Mar 22, 2010 5:37 pm

ohh i'm sorry i forgot that Steen brings in 19. high school freestylers. I also forgot his swimmers don't improve at all from high school, they are just that good at recruiting that they need no coaching to win by over 400 points. sorry
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby NCACDork » Wed Mar 24, 2010 9:55 am

I understand the sarcasm there, well done... but recruiting is also a part of coaching, isn't it?

Maybe somebody can look up what David Lazarus' breaststroke times were his freshman year, or Ian Bakk's 200 breast times as a recruit.

Oh... well, 2:07 for Bakk and Lazarus didn't even make it to nationals his freshman year. But I'm SURE they would have gone on to win nationals, even without any coaching, so it's true that Steen deserves no credit at all.

Actually I think it's fine that Kzoo got this award, but am still bummed about that 200 FR.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby LordJeffFree » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:15 am

NCACDork wrote:Oh... well, 2:07 for Bakk


Was that supposed to demonstrate that Kenyon just improves everyone and doesn't necessarily bring in top recruits? 2:07 is one of the better times in the country for people coming into d3. That'd be the best recruit in almost any other school's class in the country.
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Re: Todhunter vs Wilson

Postby NCACDork » Wed Mar 24, 2010 10:27 am

No it's not. The difference between 2:07 and 2:01 is not a trivial one, especially in only two years. I's must saying it's stupid to be dismissive about the amount that people improve, and to ignore coaching as a contributing factor.
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