2011-12 qualifying times

What do you predict for nationals? Who is going to shine, who is not?

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Squirttle
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Squirttle » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:10 pm

Did anyone else notice that teams will only be able to enter 18 swimmers in the meet this year? The big 3 (Kenyon, Denison, and Emory), since they are the only ones that ever bring full teams, have to declare 18 swimmers this year before the cut line is established with no guarantee that any swimmers with B cuts will make the meet. In years past, these teams would enter everyone that made a cut and then once the invite line was established cut down to get to 18. They won't have that luxury this year.

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Truthinswmng » Sun Aug 28, 2011 10:18 am

Squirttle wrote:Did anyone else notice that teams will only be able to enter 18 swimmers in the meet this year? The big 3 (Kenyon, Denison, and Emory), since they are the only ones that ever bring full teams, have to declare 18 swimmers this year before the cut line is established with no guarantee that any swimmers with B cuts will make the meet. In years past, these teams would enter everyone that made a cut and then once the invite line was established cut down to get to 18. They won't have that luxury this year.
And what could the point of this rule change be other than to potentially limit the number of swimmers that only a limited number of teams (probably only Denison and Emory) can bring?

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by nescac » Sun Aug 28, 2011 11:13 am

Since teams already could only bring 18, how does this further limit any teams? I guess it just means they have less info when they make strategic decisions based on likeliness of scoring.

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by DonCheadle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 10:44 am

nescac wrote:Since teams already could only bring 18, how does this further limit any teams? I guess it just means they have less info when they make strategic decisions based on likeliness of scoring.

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My thoughts exactly. This change means teams have to make rosters choices without all available information. I am not sure what the point of this is. I will be happy to sell my unofficial list (assuming I do it right, unlike last year!) of meet qualifiers the day before the final decision needs to be made, but that seems pretty silly to force schools into that.
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Squirttle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:19 pm

I guess my point was that typically the time standards have been used to manage the meet size. Now there is an additional stipulation/rule that seems targeted at 3 teams only. It doesn't really change much in the grand scheme except for having to make decisions earlier about team members.

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by DonCheadle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:40 pm

Squirttle wrote: Now there is an additional stipulation/rule that seems targeted at 3 teams only.
I can understand why you would feel that way. But I think the intent is that the NCAA would rather have a lone wolf from Olivet than an 18th guy from any school. I doubt any of us agree with that sentiment but there it is.

If my "18th guy" comes down to a relay swimmer who is part of a 3rd ranked 200 free relay and a 400 IMer who sits around 14th, I am taking the relay only guy. It is better to remove uncertainty and be assure of the the full roster.
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Chris Knight » Mon Aug 29, 2011 12:53 pm

DonCheadle wrote:
Squirttle wrote: Now there is an additional stipulation/rule that seems targeted at 3 teams only.
I can understand why you would feel that way. But I think the intent is that the NCAA would rather have a lone wolf from Olivet than an 18th guy from any school. I doubt any of us agree with that sentiment but there it is.
...unless and until you start seeing the guys who'd be 18th on Denison/Kenyon/Emory (and therefore on the team bubble, if not the actual bubble) start choosing Kzoo/W&L/fillinyouralmamaterhere College. Then I think those posters whose schools benefit would be ecstatic.

But I doubt it'll happen: In D1 you always have some A cut kids on Auburn/Stanford/Texas who get left behind, but they still pull in the best classes. We saw it with the Emory women this year. No reason to think it wouldn't be the same with D3 men, the rich get richer. Which is fine, they've earned it. The rest just have to crawl their way up the team podium inch by inch, year by year.
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by nescac » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:21 pm

Could someone post a link to 2011-12 championship handbook? I can't find it online. Did they get rid of last chance meets for swimmers who swam in their championship meet?

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by DonCheadle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 1:26 pm

Chris Knight wrote:
DonCheadle wrote:
Squirttle wrote: Now there is an additional stipulation/rule that seems targeted at 3 teams only.
I can understand why you would feel that way. But I think the intent is that the NCAA would rather have a lone wolf from Olivet than an 18th guy from any school. I doubt any of us agree with that sentiment but there it is.
...unless and until you start seeing the guys who'd be 18th on Denison/Kenyon/Emory (and therefore on the team bubble, if not the actual bubble) start choosing Kzoo/W&L/fillinyouralmamaterhere College. Then I think those posters whose schools benefit would be ecstatic.

But I doubt it'll happen: In D1 you always have some A cut kids on Auburn/Stanford/Texas who get left behind, but they still pull in the best classes. We saw it with the Emory women this year. No reason to think it wouldn't be the same with D3 men, the rich get richer. Which is fine, they've earned it. The rest just have to crawl their way up the team podium inch by inch, year by year.
Not sure what you are saying. Probably because I wasn't clear: I think that Kenyon will not field a full nationals roster because they won't enter the right 18 guys. They will have guys left off the potential roster who would have made the meet and they will have guys entered who end up below the line.

On a slightly related note: I don't expect the top 5 at D3 Nationals will be "2 schools plus Denison/Emory/Kenyon" for the next 10 years. I give W&L/Kzoo just as good of a shot as Kenyon to make top 5 a couple of years after Steen is gone. Same with Denison/Parini. Those are good schools with great coaches and a great tradition of winning. But when the coach leaves they will just be two good midwest liberal arts schools. The new coach won't be starting from scratch, but you cannot just plug someone in.
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by adamcohen79 » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:21 pm

nescac wrote:Could someone post a link to 2011-12 championship handbook? I can't find it online. Did they get rid of last chance meets for swimmers who swam in their championship meet?
The new handbook is not out yet but ALL last chance meets have been removed. The last meet for qualifying is your conference championship. ( I am sure they have some rule to cover independent teams.)

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Squirttle » Mon Aug 29, 2011 2:51 pm

adamcohen79 wrote:
nescac wrote:Could someone post a link to 2011-12 championship handbook? I can't find it online. Did they get rid of last chance meets for swimmers who swam in their championship meet?
The new handbook is not out yet but ALL last chance meets have been removed. The last meet for qualifying is your conference championship. ( I am sure they have some rule to cover independent teams.)
Can teams still go to approved D1 last chance as long as it falls within the 19 weeks and the less than 16 competitions numbers?

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by screeeeeeeeech » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:55 pm

The new rule that squirtle mentions is ridiculous. Can someone on the committee that posts on here explain your rationale? I just cannot wrap my head around it. It seems like the point of the rule is to punish the big teams that qualify more than 18. Why would you force those teams, who are the standard by which your entire product is judged, to work with imperfect information? I cannot understand why we would want to dilute our product (the National Championships).
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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by nescac » Mon Aug 29, 2011 3:57 pm

I haven't seen the exact language of the new D III rule but, as I understand it, a swimmer's season has ended once the swimmer has swum in his or her conference championship meet. If a swimmer did not make the travel squad for that meet, then I believe the swimmer can still attend a last chance meet and qualify for nationals. The issue isn't who sanctions the meet -- the issue is whether the swimmer's season has effectively ended for qualifying purposes to nationals. I guess this rule will particularly impact teams who tried to qualify relays at last chance meets.

I should say I like this rule because it creates closure for the swimmer who just missed at the conference meet. And it saves schools a bit of money. Of course, it may create more time trials at conference meets.

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by imJumbo » Mon Aug 29, 2011 8:14 pm

nescac wrote:I haven't seen the exact language of the new D III rule but, as I understand it, a swimmer's season has ended once the swimmer has swum in his or her conference championship meet. If a swimmer did not make the travel squad for that meet, then I believe the swimmer can still attend a last chance meet and qualify for nationals. The issue isn't who sanctions the meet -- the issue is whether the swimmer's season has effectively ended for qualifying purposes to nationals. I guess this rule will particularly impact teams who tried to qualify relays at last chance meets.

I should say I like this rule because it creates closure for the swimmer who just missed at the conference meet. And it saves schools a bit of money. Of course, it may create more time trials at conference meets.
LOVE THIS RULE. Get's rid of a 200 Free relay having like 8 chances to get their cuts. Fantastic change IMO.

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Re: 2011-12 qualifying times

Post by Squirttle » Tue Aug 30, 2011 11:07 am

nescac wrote:I haven't seen the exact language of the new D III rule but, as I understand it, a swimmer's season has ended once the swimmer has swum in his or her conference championship meet. If a swimmer did not make the travel squad for that meet, then I believe the swimmer can still attend a last chance meet and qualify for nationals. The issue isn't who sanctions the meet -- the issue is whether the swimmer's season has effectively ended for qualifying purposes to nationals. I guess this rule will particularly impact teams who tried to qualify relays at last chance meets.

I should say I like this rule because it creates closure for the swimmer who just missed at the conference meet. And it saves schools a bit of money. Of course, it may create more time trials at conference meets.
The rule doesn't say anything about conference meet or closure for end of season....
1. Last Chance Meets. The committee reaffirmed its previous decision to eliminate the approval of last chance meets. However the committee further clarified that only the times achieved during the qualifying period (September 5, 2011 – February 26, 2012) at bona fide competition within each teams declared 19 weeks playing and practice season, not to exceed 16 dates will be considered for championships selection.

Bona Fide Competition
Time standards, consideration standards and optional-entry standards for swimming (individual and relay) events must be achieved in bona fide competition.
Bona fide competition is defined as when an event conforms to all NCAA rules relevant to swimming and diving performances. They include the following:
• Meet is open to the public;
• Competition is between two or more teams of the same gender, at the same time and site, from different four-year collegiate institutions, as defined in NCAA Bylaw 31.3.3.1;
• Must be in compliance with NCAA Bylaw 17.21;
• All competitors must be eligible by NCAA standards;
• Meets must be included on the institutions’ approved competition schedule;
• Meets must have published results; and
• Depending on the governing body, meet official(s) must be qualified and/or certified.


• Any meet that is sanctioned by the Federation Internationale de Natation Am (FINA), and any bona fide meet that is sanctioned or approved by USA Swimming (USA), United States Diving (USD) or the corresponding governing body of another country, also is defined as bona fide competition.
• Any attempt to circumvent either the intent of a bona fide competition or the application of NCAA approved starting, judging and timing procedures, is prohibited. Such an attempt may result in severe penalty to both the competitor(s) and the institution(s) involved. NCAA Bylaws 17.30 for coaches and 14.01.3.3 for student-athletes would apply.

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