New Scoring

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de la Pena
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Post by de la Pena » Thu Dec 22, 2005 11:58 am

This whole scoring thing is getting ridiculous. A bunch of people who know nothing about our sport are making the decisions. I am not as mad about how it will affect the outcome of the meet as opposed to taking away opportunities for other swimmers. Lets face it. Somebody may have a shitty swim in the morning then have no chance to redeem themselves at night. It happened to Frankle freshman year in the 500. He would have placed 2nd overall..I think. Plus its going to hurt the morale of people who think they have no shot to make it back to the final 6...so why bother swimming at all? We as swimmers need to pull some sort of petition together or the team captains should meet up with the OAC Board or whatever they are called and explain our case. It looks like we may be combing with the PAC next season in order to get 2 heats back from what I've heard. It's a load of bs and we shouldn't have to deal with it. We also need a better venue than JCU for conferences. Even though it is a nice facility...no school in the conference is suited for a championship meet. We should pull for Case again. I think that if the conference hears from the actual athletes they may do something.

BearsSwimming
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Post by BearsSwimming » Tue Dec 27, 2005 12:17 am

de la Pena, thanks for looking our for me and my shitty freshman year 500! Haha. And yes...I would have placed 2nd, but that is beside the point. Does anyone really think the OAC is going to change even if they here from a bunch of athletes. I mean, I am not at all opposed to putting together some sort of petition, but who would organize it and when/where we would present it would be kind of difficult. In my opinion, scoring 6 is a terrible idea. A conference meet is supposed to measure how good your team is overall. And while I think ONU and BW would benefit from scoring only 6, I still don't think it would be respresentative of the strengths of each of the teams. All this is going to determine is who has the best swimmer in each event, becausw with 6 people scoring, whoever wins the race pretty much wins the event point wise. Oh well, maybe the OAC will come to its senses, or maybe their goal is to rid the OAC of everything but football, and this is its first step. Actually, maybe we should step in and make new football rules for 06. No forward passes, 4 points for a touchdown, 18 for a field goal. Just some suggestions the OAC may want to consider.

de la Pena
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Post by de la Pena » Tue Dec 27, 2005 2:11 pm

I agree with Frankle, the Nick version that is. Sorry about that comment shitty swim comment thing...I didnt mean to sound like an ass...but you know what I meant. The last thing we need is an all out trash talking war like last year...haha. Anyways...how about we add a 50 point shot to basketball...you know like on that MTV celebrity basketball game with a 30 foot high rim. In the process though no fouls will be called anything goes. In baseball we'll add fourth base to make things more interesting. On a more serious note, I know getting all this stuff together will be difficult. We have dual meets with JCU and ONU in January so I was thinking I would have a petition for you guys to look at by then. As for Mount and Wilmington...who knows I'll try to see if i can get something out to them too.

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sun Jan 01, 2006 10:02 pm

I just heard that OAC wrestling is having some rule changes as well. It is going to be a show like no other...well actually like WWE Raw. There will be lots of drama and a staged ending. Professional actors will be recruited to perform in these shows that will be hosted on mondays and thursdays, moving around the schools of the OAC. Sometimes these will be broadcasted on TV for a small charge through the cable company...

I really think that making rule changes for all the sports in the OAC is the most fun I have had in a long time. Let's keep it up. Good luck on your training trips and I hope everyone comes back swimming fast!

BearsSwimming
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Post by BearsSwimming » Tue Jan 03, 2006 10:22 pm

de la Pena, first, I didn't take the 500 free comment personally. Anyway, if you had something drafted up within the next week, we swim Mount on the 14th and could get it started there, although I don't know how much support we have from Mount. Anyway, if you want, I can draft something up and take it to that meet, you can send something to me (I'll give you my email if you want) and I can get it started at Mount, or you can take care of it. I don't know if it's going to do any good, but it's worth a shot and it lets them know we are at least interested in the situation. On another note, and purely because dorsch is getting so much amusement out of changing rules for other sports, I thought maybe we should add mud wrestling to women's soccer. Instead of halftime, both teams can go have a KY wrestling match. Last person standing wins their team 10 points. Actually, now that I think about it, they could charge admission to that. They may get a turnout for women's OAC soccer games. (No offense if any OAC women's soccer players read this, but they get about as much attention as swimming).

duuude
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Post by duuude » Sat Jan 07, 2006 10:37 am

I was told that the change was made so that schools like mount union and wilmington can compete legitimately by talent rather than numbers. There were a few events at the 2005 OAC championships that didn't have 12 people and it makes no sense that any team could have asked some kid who can hardly swim to enter in one of these events and score.
The main reason that i heard they voted this in is because there was a diver last year that scored and looked like he learned how to dive that day.
In reality, scoring 8 or 12 in a conference as small as the OAC is a joke. It makes a mockery of the hard work some swimmers put in by allowing some teams the ability to just throw random people in some events and they will score unless they disqualify.
A conference that only has 5 teams should not score up to 12 or 8, ESPECIALLY with the unimpressive times in the OAC that would score in some events (Using 2005's OAC results, If top 12 were scored, a 2:58 and a 2:50 in the boys 200 Fly would score, a 2:32 in the boys 200 backstroke would score, and anyone who finished the boys 1650, 100 fly, or 400IM would have scored)
Top 6 is a good number. It lets the true talent in the conference score and not anyone who learned how to swim that day. I have talked to friends of mine at wilmington and mount union and they are excited about the new scoring because it will make our conference more competitive and a lot more fair by ridding the championship meet of the ability to load events with the worst swimmers in the conference and having them score.
Give all the swimmers that finish last in their races a pat on the back, but don't give them points. That makes the whole meet based off of who has more people on their team and not the talent of the members of the team.

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:16 pm

duuude-

i don't see how anyone could think that this scoring could make the meet more competitive for everyone. take for example the 50 freestyle. wilmington's top time this year, posted by chris lamb at 24.56 is the 24th fastest time in the league. now, i know not all 23 of the people in front of him will swim the 50 at oac's, but you can bet at least half of them will. that puts the top wilmington swimmer at 12th at best entering the meet. now the chances of this person placing in the top six in prelims are slim to none (this is based solely on times from right now. i do not know what each swimmer's potential is so i am not trying to knock anyone down). pretty much all of the events run this way. there is alot of onu and bw at the top with some mount and jcu sprinkled in there. if the meet is scored top six, there will be two meets on the guys side. onu vs. bw and jcu vs. mount. sadly, there is a very good chance that wilmington's only points will come from relays. now if i was trying to recruit for a team that only scored points on relays at comference meet, and those were automatic points as long as my team finished the race, i think it would be impossible for me to bring anyone to that school to build a competitive team. it just doesn't make sense to score only six. the conference is faster than it has been overall in quite awhile, so i see this switch in scoring to be detrimental to the continued progress of our small conference.

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sat Jan 07, 2006 9:25 pm

duuude wrote: In reality, scoring 8 or 12 in a conference as small as the OAC is a joke. It makes a mockery of the hard work some swimmers put in by allowing some teams the ability to just throw random people in some events and they will score unless they disqualify.
A conference that only has 5 teams should not score up to 12 or 8, ESPECIALLY with the unimpressive times in the OAC that would score in some events
check out the little east conference. they have five teams and score top 12. http://www.littleeast.com/wsw/lecswimchamp05.txt[/url]

duuude
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Post by duuude » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:34 am

The Little East conference, however, also didn't have any events that weren't full (except for diving). The OAC had a few swimming events as well as diving that weren't full. They may also have only 5 schools, but there are more swimmers than there are in the OAC, Which means you actually have to be talented (relative to the rest of the conference) to score.
And as far as being more competitive, a school that scores its only points from events where they simply finish the race (like the example you gave) shouldn't be given "pity points". You should only score in a race if you are talented in it (relative to the rest of the conference). If those only points come from relays and a few other choice events, then their coach needs to recruit more.
By competitive, i mean that it will make swimmers have to work harder to earn points because now the points won't be given away. A team getting one point because their guy finished twelfth in a race is hardly competitive when you think about the 21 points that would be given to the 5 places above him.
The OAC may be getting bigger or faster, however it is not to the point where you can score 12. like i said before, we shouldn't score to twelve in a conference as small as ours ESPECIALLY with the unimpressive times that i mentioned before. some kid who learned how to swim that day could swim the mile in an hour and score points for it?? all the while in other events, swimmers that have been working hard for a few years and are only down to a 23 high in the 50 won't be able to score?
Ask the wilmington or mount union coach if they would rather have the most talented teams get the points or the most numerous teams. Because WC and MUC are left in the dust when it comes to numbers...
Talent should be scored and there should be no points given for simply finishing a race. You should have to PERFORM to earn points.
and you shouldn't rely so heavily on the top 10 list to determine who is goig to score at conference. wilmington turned quite a few heads at last year's OAC conference meet from what i hear.

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sun Jan 08, 2006 10:43 am

duuude wrote:The Little East conference, however, also didn't have any events that weren't full (except for diving). The OAC had a few swimming events as well as diving that weren't full. They may also have only 5 schools, but there are more swimmers than there are in the OAC, Which means you actually have to be talented (relative to the rest of the conference) to score.
And as far as being more competitive, a school that scores its only points from events where they simply finish the race (like the example you gave) shouldn't be given "pity points". You should only score in a race if you are talented in it (relative to the rest of the conference). If those only points come from relays and a few other choice events, then their coach needs to recruit more.
By competitive, i mean that it will make swimmers have to work harder to earn points because now the points won't be given away. A team getting one point because their guy finished twelfth in a race is hardly competitive when you think about the 21 points that would be given to the 5 places above him.
The OAC may be getting bigger or faster, however it is not to the point where you can score 12. like i said before, we shouldn't score to twelve in a conference as small as ours ESPECIALLY with the unimpressive times that i mentioned before. some kid who learned how to swim that day could swim the mile in an hour and score points for it?? all the while in other events, swimmers that have been working hard for a few years and are only down to a 23 high in the 50 won't be able to score?
Ask the wilmington or mount union coach if they would rather have the most talented teams get the points or the most numerous teams. Because WC and MUC are left in the dust when it comes to numbers...
Talent should be scored and there should be no points given for simply finishing a race. You should have to PERFORM to earn points.
and you shouldn't rely so heavily on the top 10 list to determine who is goig to score at conference. wilmington turned quite a few heads at last year's OAC conference meet from what i hear.
take a look at the results from last years oac's. the 2 events besides diving that did not fill were the 400IM and the 100 fly. wilmington has NEVER put anyone in the 400IM. they do not even have a team record in the event. that is not the rest of the teams' faults that they do not swim anyone in the event. that is their own fault. and the 100 fly only had one wilmington swimmer in it. sometimes, to be competitive with the other teams, you need to put swimmers in every event. i know their facilities do not allow for diving, so that is out of their control, but they had a fairly large team last year, so they should have been able to train someone for the im and put another swimmer or 2 in the fly.

also, take a look at the girls results. you won't find any that have unfull events. in fact, there is quite o bit of exhibition swam becasue the rosters have more than 18 people on them per team. scoring top 6 is not fair to the girls teams. in fact it takes onu out of the running for first place most likely and pigeon holes them in third. they don't have as many superstars, but they have great depth. scoring top 6 is just asking who has more superstars.

as for having the most talented team win and not the biggest, i have to question when the last time the most talented team didn't win? last year, ONU won and they were by far the most talented team. the 5 years previous, JCU won and looking at the results, they were the most talented team. numbers did not help jcu go undefeated and win the oac title in 2004. they had 11 athletes. 7 swimmers short of a full roster, but they won the title anyway. if they are going to score only top 6, then it doesn't make sense to have rosters of 18. it should be limited to 9. that would make it fair. swim the top 9 on each team for points. anyone outside of that top 9 is exhibition.

my final point. there are 83 different men that have competed thus far this year throughout the conference. that is plenty of people to fill the events. there are nearly 120 women that have competed. those numbers do not seem to justify downsizing the conference meet. as i said before, it is going to be even harder to recruit to a slower conference that does not give the average athlete a chance to help his team at the conference level.

duuude
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Post by duuude » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:10 pm

in the 2004 OAC championship meet, the most talented teams won? ONU beat BW ONLY because of the consolation heat. If only the top six most talented swimmers had been scored, JC still would have won, but BW would have beaten ONU. BW was the more talented team, but they didn't have as many people as ONU to throw into events.

Consider this also...that year a 50 free swimmer had to go a 23.09 (a respectable time) to score a single point. But any joe who jumped in the pool to swim the 100 back got at least 2.

[quote="Dorsch"] as i said before, it is going to be even harder to recruit to a slower conference that does not give the average athlete a chance to help his team at the conference level.[/quote]

The average athlete shouldn't be scoring points at the conference championships. The most talented swimmers should be scoring and thats it. The average athlete has their chance during the season when they are practicing. If we are going to give out points for being average (and in many cases BELOW average...waaaaaaaaaaay below average), then why even have a conference meet? Just give everyone points for working hard all year and there will be no winners.

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sun Jan 08, 2006 5:54 pm

teams that get enough people to fill a roster shouldn't be punished because other teams were not able to fill theirs. and who set these averages for swimmers' speeds? you? the oac is a weak d3 conference that gets a handful a national callibur swimmers. if it wants to be anything but that, more focus should be directed at expanding programs instead of making it "fair" for everyone. if you want talent to win the meet, each team gets one swimmer per event. there are no prelims. each team can hold their own meet against themselves to determine who swims at the championships. to me and alot of others that i have talked to about this, that is as rediculous of an idea as scoring 6. here is a little life lesson: live is not fair. when you are having a hard time at work, no one is going to come around and say "you're right, this isn't fair. let me try to make it more equal for everyone." you will be told to suck it up and work harder. the idea that scoring top 6 will make people work harder is a load of crap. 90% of the athletes in the oac work very hard. and from my experience, the 10% that don't work hard are not the ones that look like they don't belong in the sport. they are people with alot of natural talent, but have no work ethic.

the bottom line that i have is this: teams that are able to recruit and get enough swimmers to fill a roster should have a chance for more of their people to score. those that cannot fill a roster need to do something different in their recruiting plans to get athletes to their school so they can be competitive. nothing should be given to them because they have a smaller team.

duuude
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Post by duuude » Sun Jan 08, 2006 6:39 pm

what i am saying is wrong is the idea of giving away points. what is average is up to each individual, but anyone can agree that if there is one event with open lanes at finals, something isn't right. The fact that a person went 3 minutes in their 200 fly and would have scored points is indisputably a little too much.

The top 6 rule isn't punishing schools with a lot of swimmers. It is making it so that only the talented (relative to the conference) score. If the big schools don't like it, then they should concentrate on recruiting top 6 quality swimmers. I don't know how this is being argued when there are some kids who can hardly swim that will score points. Not only is it unfair to the smaller schools (by the way...fairness should be enforced. If a college football team goes against another at the national championship game and the entire other team is juiced up on steroids, i doubt the commissioner will say "live is not fair. when you are having a hard time at work, no one is going to come around and say "you're right, this isn't fair. let me try to make it more equal for everyone." suck it up and work harder, boys")...but the idea is retarded. If the OAC wants to be a competitive conference, they need to start rewarding points to the most talented swimmers, not everyone who enters an event.

The special olympics give points and medals for trying and for finishing the race...but a college conference championship meet should reward people for excelling and succeeding in their event (relative to the rest of the conference). Everyone else who swims in the event and finishes can get a good pat on the back and a "great job"

And i'll say it once again...NOT EVERYONE SHOULD SCORE POINTS.
points should be reserved for those who did well in their event. and in the OAC (when there are only 9 people in some events and other events that 11th and 12th place are kids who probablyjust learned how to swim that day), top 6 is an overall good cutoff (also considering the size of John Carrol's pool).

In the OAC, top 6 is a safe number that will ensure that the true talent is going to score. The rule did pass, by the way, so you should be the first person in line to tell the kids who would get 7th place and up to "suck it up and work harder".

Dorsch
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Post by Dorsch » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:15 pm

FYI. the person who you talk about that went about 3 minutes in the 200 fly is one of my brothers and good friends. i take offense to you talking him down. i understand you are trying to prove your point, but do not say that he learned how to swim that day. by nature he is a football player, and he swam instead of playing football in college because 2 knee surgeries didn't allow him to do so. making comments like "11th and 12th place are kids who probably just learned how to swim that day" is completely rediculous. i want to see someone who just learned how to swim that day get in the water and swim a 200 fly. if you know anything about swimming, you would know that that would not happen.

anyway, i revote for dodgeball being the deciding game for the oac championship in swimming and diving.

shirtandtie
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Post by shirtandtie » Sun Jan 08, 2006 8:27 pm

Quote
“by the way...fairness should be enforced. If a college football team goes against another at the national championship game and the entire other team is juiced up on steroids, I doubt the commissioner will say "live is not fair. when you are having a hard time at work, no one is going to come around and say "you're right, this isn't fair. let me try to make it more equal for everyone." suck it up and work harder, boys")”

taking steroids is against the rules. Swimming two heats at night isn’t. To use football as an example it would be this “just because team A can’t recruit enough players, we are just going to have 6 players on each team. That goes against your theory.

quote
“in the 2004 OAC championship meet, the most talented teams won? ONU beat BW ONLY because of the consolation heat. If only the top six most talented swimmers had been scored, JC still would have won, but BW would have beaten ONU. BW was the more talented team, but they didn't have as many people as ONU to throw into events.”

That’s another false statement. If you are judging most talented team you should judge by who score the most points. So ONU was more talented. If you want to look at the number of swimmers in finals, ONU wins vs. BW, and if you look at event champs, once again ONU had more then BW.



If every team would just field of team of 18 swimmers on both sides (which is all that is allow at nationals) like they should and are allow, we would not need to have this debate. Don't hurt teams that by what you say are big teams but are really just fielding a line up.

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